East Indies
September 1622-January 1623

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Institute of Historical Research

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W. Noel Sainsbury (editor)

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1878

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80-88

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'East Indies: September 1622-January 1623', Calendar of State Papers Colonial, East Indies, China and Japan, Volume 4: 1622-1624 (1878), pp. 80-88. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=69754 Date accessed: 30 September 2014.


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Sep 1622-Jan 1623

1622–3.
Sept.—Jan.
200. The Proceedings of the English Lords Commissioners and the States Ambassadors concerning the treaty between the English and Dutch East India Companies (referred to, ante, p. 29), between September 1622, when the negociations were renewed, and January 1623, when the States Ambassadors had audience of the King to take leave (see No. 246). [All these papers, viz., Nos. 201–222, being without date, it has been thought better to place them together.]
201. "Concerning the restitution of ships taken by those of the Netherlands from the English East India Company." Arguments on both sides. Endorsed: "Reasons that restitution of ships should be made without demand, with proofs of our divers demands notwithstanding." [Three pages. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 36.]
202. "The state of the questions depending as yet undetermined between the English and Dutch East India Companies concerning restitution. The English demand (1) the discount for pepper left to two indifferent merchants of each nation; (2) goods taken at Lantar; (3) cloth taken in two ships at Patani; (4) 8,000 ryals of eight; (5) 10s. for every ryal taken from them in the Indies. Also damage for delay of restitution. Arguments on both sides. [Two pages, two copies. East Indies, Vol. II., Nos. 37, 38.]
203. State of the negociations between the Lords Commissioners and the States Ambassadors. The pepper they take to be accorded. The ships taken by the Dutch accorded for a certain sum of money. Their merchandise taken before the treaty accorded according to the value of the place taken. The question arises of changing the value of the Black Lion. Fifteen bales of linen upon the point of accord.
Sept.—Jan.For Pulicat "they shall have all the treaty gives them." Pooloroor shall be restored. [The expenses of colleges] schools they shall cease. "For Banda [Lantar] they will render all in specie," with interest to the full value of those goods here in Europe. For ryals of eight the Ambassadors present [sic] restitution in specie. For reglement of justice that they (the English) should have justice over themselves, the Dutch over themselves. Touching forts also in the Moluccas, Amboyna, and Bantam (sic ? Banda), they desire that the treaty be observed, and joint agreement where and how many are to be made. Touching the ships of defence, the Ambassadors pray they may not be pressed to innovate or change the treaty. Arguments. Also concerning the Black Lion, "yet notwithstanding they shall be [ready] to hear his Majesty's reasons and y[ield] to a reasonable abatement." [Three pages, mutilated. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 39.]
204. The States Ambassadors' report of the negociations with the Lords Commissioners concerning Banda (called by the English Lantar). In reference to the Dutch occupation of Banda, and the loss in consequence which the English declare they have sustained in wares and moveable goods to the value of about 7,000 ryals, for which they demand restitution. The Dutch maintain that by treaty the English were forbidden to have any wares there. After examination by the King at Hampton Court his Majesty proposed that the Dutch should keep two thirds of said wares and restore one third to the English, to which the Dutch assented, so that they might be recompensed for the third part of the cost they had undergone, and this question was put off until the Privy Council and said Ambassadors were better prepared for it. The English Company have since demanded restitution of the like wares in Europe, and the Ambassadors made an offer to them "to the end they may not break off," but the English merchants were not willing to accept "so reasonable a proffer." Reasons why the Ambassadors perceive they cannot agree, and why the English should content themselves with what the Dutch merchants, persuaded by their Ambassadors, have with a free heart already proffered, "and that they (the English) would not think that in anywise the Ambassadors will or can go further therein." [Two pages. French; also a translation in English. East Indies, Vol. II., Nos. 40, 41.]
205. State of the negociations between the States Ambassadors and the Lords Commissioners. "English merchants' charges granted." For rice the Hollanders demand the like price granted to the English. For the Black Lion they demand restitution, she being lost by negligence, not by the hand of God. Question concerning her goods. The Expedition taken by the Hollanders; overthrown by the cable of an Englishman; by the right of the sea to be borne half and half, but if the law of the sea bear it not, they will render the whole. The goods of Lantar his Majesty hath judged two parts to the States, and the English the third part in specie. The merchants retreated from this judgment, the King being misinformed. In conclusion the merchants of Holland offer restitution of all, but being required to pay it in Europe, refuse, and so it rests. [Two pages. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 42.]
206. [The East India Company's] propositions fit and convenient for the rule and government of the trade between the two Companies. Have made it manifestly appear to their Lordships that their people in the East Indies have endured all the marks and extremities of servitude and slavery under the pretended sovereignty of the Dutch, whereby the honour and reputation of the English nation has not only been trodden upon and degraded to the utmost amongst the eastern people, but their trade has also been very much wronged and impaired without any likelihood of meeting with better success, unless some course and orders be taken that these wrongful proceedings receive public censure from the States. Propose, first, that public declaration be made at Jacatra and such other places as shall seem fit to their President and Council. Concerning the infliction of whipping, imprisonment, imposition of fines, taxes, &c., upon the English by the Dutch; that they were acts entirely disallowed by the King and the States, and contrary to the treaty, and that restitution be made of all such fines, customs, &c. That all officers concerned in these injuries and extortions be forthwith recalled and punished as disturbers of the common peace, according to the last article of the treaty. Touching the VIIth article of the treaty, the English propose that they should enjoy at the fort of Pulicat the liberty prescribed to them by treaty, or else be delivered from all charges there. That according to the VIIIth article the punishment of their own people should be left to them, and that they should enjoy the same privileges in payment of the garrisons, and in serving themselves with the natives as the Dutch. And for the reasons herein stated, that it be judged henceforth unnecessary to employ such a number as 20 ships of defence. That, according to the explanation of the XIIIth article, it be left to the Council of Defence to make choice of some fit place for residence; the hostility of Bantam excludes that place; neither is Jacatra an indifferent place; they therefore propose that an indifferent place be selected.
As to the XVth article. They desire it to be declared that they are neither subject to the charges of the Dutch schools, the table of their governors, nor their presents made.
For the XXIIIth article. They desire that the forts and all at Pooloroon be restored in the same condition as when taken from them, and also the fort at the Isle of Lontor (Lantar).
For the XXIVth article. The three years mentioned in this article being now passed, they desire that the question of forts be resumed, and that it be directly determined what number and in what place the English may build forts in the Moluccas, Banda, and Amboyna. [Four pages. Two copies in French, and a translation in English. East Indies, Vol. II., Nos. 43, 44, 45.]
207. [The States Ambassadors'] answers to the above propositions. The introduction not thought fit to be answered. Concern ing scorn spoken of the King or estate, punishment to follow by death, or other equity. The 7th article may be well accommodated. The 8th may be also accommodated with the explanation. Concerning the 20 ship of defence, keep the article of the treaty, the ships remaining, the employment according to the common council. The explanation of the 13th article shall be accommodated. The 15th may be accomodated. The 23rd; the English are in possession, and "the dispute of declamation will multiply causes and pretences that will be envious. Lantar is not an island, but a village in Bantam." The 24th and last. Conceive the intention of the article to be that three years should be given "after the publication of the treaty." "Hope there is no need of fortification. They shall have such a reglement of trade as will conserve amity. And if there should be need, it will require the Council of Defence their opinion, and the Council being not able to foresee this demand of anticipation having no commission to treat of it." [Two pages. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 46.]
208. "Propositions for the execution of the articles of the treaty and explanation thereof between the two Companies." These are to the same purport as No. 206, but without the prefatory remarks. Sec. Calvert has struck out the first two paragraphs in reference to the restitution of fines, customs, &c., and the recall of those officers who have been disturbers of the common peace, and has added the marginal note, "The like impositions as are now put upon the English at Jacatra to be yielded by the Dutch in the fort which the English shall build hereafter." To the 7th article, touching the fort at Pulicat, he has written "Agreed," and the 8th article and explanation as to the punishment of their own people Sec. Calvert has struck out, but has added in marginal notes, in reference to the engagement of equal privileges, "these payments to be alike either in money or commodity," and concerning the number of men in garrison, that "the numbers shall be certain and necessary, and employed only to the service of both the Companies." [2 pages. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 47.]
209. "State of the business of Bantam." By the convention between the two Companies it is ordered that the trade of Bantam must be regulated and redressed, and that to this effect the Council of Defence should first try "all sweet ways" to persuade the Pengran, that failing, they should be authorised to employ such other means as they should think fit. "Sweet ways" failing three times, the Council of Defence ordered that the town should be cannonaded by the ships of both Companies. Those of the Low Countries have satisfied their part, and because the English alleged they were unprovided with ships and men, they furnished up the part of the English. Now the Dutch demand reimbursement for half the charge, pleading the 10th, 18th, 19th, and 20th articles of the treaty, but offer nevertheless to pretend to nothing of the charge if the English will abandon the hope of that trade wholly to them. The English Company maintain that the words underlined show that it was in the power of the Council of Defence to appoint the charge more to one than the other, and that consequently the English should be discharged from any further charge. Against this the Dutch urge that according to the treaty the two Companies should bear the charges and enjoy the profits equally. [One page. French; also abstract in English. East Indies, Vol. II., Nos. 48, 49.]
210. Report of the conferences between the States Ambassadors and the Lords Commissioners concerning the East Indies. In reference to the English bearing half the charge where they have half the profit, upon which the States Ambassadors insist and fortify by the 10th, 18th, 19th, and 20th articles of the treaty, and on being desired to name some particular charge, with much unwillingness made instance of the siege of Bantam, where the four expeditions were not performed at equal charge. It was answered that their Lordships had received satisfaction at Hampton Court in the expeditions of the 28th April, 22nd May, and 25th December 1620; but for that of 8th November 1621, if the merchants had failed of what the Council of Defence had agreed upon, it was thought fit the English should make it good. Arguments on the persistence of the Ambassadors that the Council of Defence had no power to determine the charge, the proportions being ordered in the treaty. Reply of the Lords Commissioners: that the Pengran hath refused to treat with the Dutch, but offereth trade to the English; that it is not reasonable that they who have no aim but trade should bear the charges of another's conquest and sovereignty, or either be entrapped in offensive wars or have unknown accounts made upon them. For these and other reasons their Lordships thought not fit to yield to that general proposition of equal charge, but ever concluded with their former offer that the English should bear that part of the charge which was proportioned upon them by the Council of Defence, according to the treaty and the explanation thereof. In the margin of one copy Sec. Calvert has written: "By which it appeareth that the business of Bantam is governed by a particular reglement, for that affair only, and not alone by the treaty." [Five pages. East Indies, Vol. II., Nos. 50, 51. Two copies.]
211. [The States Ambassadors'] minutes of debates with the States Ambassadors and the Lords of the Privy Council about the business of the East Indies. Recapitulate what has taken place at several meetings, particularly on the 16th and 18th November (see ante, No. 178), when the Lords of the Privy Council desired that the two points of the number of ships of defence and building forts in the Moluccas, Amboyna, and Banda should be agreed on. To which the States Ambassadors replied: That the desire of the English merchants on the first point was directly contrary to the treaty, which his Majesty declared should remain in its entirety; that the number [of ships] is necessary to secure trade, and that if the States did not see the evident danger of reducing the number, they would be as inclined as the English to get rid of the onerous expense. As to the other of forts: That neither the English nor the Dutch had yet reconnoitred the Indies, nor given any advice what forts, where, and how many would be hereafter necessary, which ought first to be done according to the 24th article of the treaty. [Two pages. French. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 52.]
212. "The points necessary to be considered of in the reglement of trade for the future." Concerning the 20 ships of defence and their employment mentioned in the 10th article; the Dutch refuse to lessen the number. Forts in the Moluccas, Banda, and Amboyna; the three years mentioned in the 24th being already expired, the Dutch "seem to deny us liberty to erect forts." Pooloroon; the Dutch agree to restore it; also to demolish the fort at Lantar, and that island to be possessed equally by both Companies. The King has declared that the Dutch are to have two thirds of the trade, the English one third. The place of residence for the English Council of Defence; agreed that some new place shall be chosen; and the punishment of the people of each Company, also agreed upon. [Two pages. Endorsed, "1622." Two copies. East Indies, Vol. II., Nos. 53, 54.]
213. Reglement between the English and Dutch East India Companies. In eight articles, corrected and with marginal notes by Sec Calvert. 1. The English Council of Defence to elect an indifferent place for residence.—"Agreed." 2. Touching the ships of defence struck out as "sufficiently provided for by the treaty, unless they will explain it as we desire." 3. Equal charge for forts; "provided for in the 8, 12, and 15 art of the explanation." 4. As to criminals, slaves, or refugees.—"Agreed" so far forth as it is not prejudicial to the 28th article. 5. Each nation to have the punishment of its own criminals.—Struck out. 6. The English Company not to bear the expences of the colleges, schools, or table of the Dutch Governors, or the presents they make.—"Agreed." 7. Neither letters of marque to be granted nor seizure of ships or goods made on either side, "a new article and needless." 8. Liberty to both Companies to build forts in two (altered to three) years, according to 24 article. "It is already at liberty and needs no article."— Agreed. "This article was underwritten Agreed [in my Lord Treasurer's chamber struck out] by the desire of the English merchants, who likewise before the Lords Commissioners would have yielded to the term of three years. But the question being again renewed the 30th of this present [? Dec.] it was otherwise answered, and by consent of all parties referred to the 24th article of the treaty. The general reservation is that if all the articles were not settled, it should be understood nothing was."—Agreed. [Two pages. French. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 55.]
214. Memorial of the States Ambassadors to the King. Having considered the writing which [Sir Ed.] Conway brought them this morning to be by them accepted and signed, they desire with all their hearts to put a final conclusion to this accord to his Majesty's satisfaction; but complain that by this writing the payments for the pepper and ryals are to be made in a short time in English money in London, instead of in one month after the Ambassadors return to Amsterdam. Pray that what has been already agreed upon may be confirmed, nothing being in dispute but security for the fulfilling of what has been or shall be concluded and signed, for which they are ready to pledge the public faith of their State. Request sufficient time to make their report, by reason the frost may still exclude them some weeks from their country. Nevertheless, as a proof to his Majesty of their integrity, candour, and sincere intentions, and seeing how the English Company distrust their promises, said Ambassadors are willing that one or two of the deputies of the Dutch Company shall remain here as proposed until the treaty, and the payment depending thereon, be satisfied. Pray his Majesty to proceed to a decision of the Black Lion, to cause the convention as agreed between the two Companies to be signed, and to give said Ambassadors leave to finish this negociation, since by these means they will have fully satisfied all that could be expected from them. [French. Two copies; one endorsed by Sec. Calvert, "Paper from the States Ambassadors." Two pages. East Indies, Vol. II., Nos. 56, 57.]
215. Proposals of the States Ambassadors concerning the Black Lion. That if it be not possible to escape from the differences of the [Black] Lion by a final accord, the King will agree to refer the decision to the Parliament of Paris, where it may be promptly given at the instance of the two Companies, caution to be given on either side de judicatum solvi. Those of the Low Countries contend that 38,000l. is due. That if his Majesty does not approve of this reference to the Parliament, that said Ambassadors may be allowed to return and report to their sovereigns the state of this difference. In either case, those of the Low Countries will be content and ready to satisfy all the other articles that have been regulated and agreed on by the mediation of his Majesty and the Lords of the Privy Council, in order to show their great inclination to the accord. [One page. French. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 58.]
216. "Discourse" of Sir Henry Marten, Judge of the Admiralty, concerning the Black Lion, and goods in her, which were burnt casually after having been taken by the English. Whether a ship taken by either East India Company from the other, though it had come to their hands and possession, shall be subject to restitution if the same hath perished when in the hands, custody, possession, or service of the same Company. "I say nothing ought to be paid by the English." With the opinion of Sir William Byrde, Dean of the Arches, that "the words of the treaty [1619], and the explanation thereof, and the fact being as they are therein mentioned, the conclusions thereof "are well warranted by law to my best understanding." [Nine pages. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 59.]
217. Answer of the East India Company to the reply of the Dutch concerning the Black Lion, addressed to "our very good Lords" [of the Privy Council]. Complain much of the confused manner of the handling of the controversies by the Dutch, the mingling of things of different considerations, and "casting in a heap of impertinencies and petitiones principii;" after which follow long arguments in reference to the meaning of that part of the treaty which relates to the restoration of the Black Lion and her goods, which arguments are freely interspersed with quotations from eminent legal authorities in support of same. [Eight pages. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 60.]
218. Memorial of the States Ambassadors to the King. Concerning that which [Sir Ed.] Conway has on the King's part proposed, that the States Ambassadors should give caution in this city or pay a part of the debt in money down, with caution for the remainder, or that all or the greater part of them should stay in this city until payment be made or other satisfaction given. The Ambassadors declare that the deputies who accompany them have neither power to give caution nor to make any payment without first reporting to their principals. Therefore said Ambassadors beseech his Majesty to proceed to a decision about the Black Lion, and to rest satisfied that in signing the accord they engage the public faith of their State, which has never given cause of doubt to State or person, and they pray his Majesty to grant them an audience and permission to report to their sovereigns what they have concluded after a negociation of 14 months. [One page and a quarter. French. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 61.]
219. Account of negociations between the States Ambassadors and Lords Commissioners. That the Ambassadors have promised to give caution in the city of London for restitution of the sum detained for freight, assurance, and just charges, the money to be paid so soon as the English shall have brought the pepper belonging to those of the Low Countries into Holland. Also to give assurance for the 97,000 and odd ryals to be paid in the Indies, and, lastly, to give assurance within 18 months to pay the price the English merchandizes were sold for. Question of payment in ready money. The Ambassadors and Dutch merchants ready to sign to bind the public faith. Present article for payment of the money at a certain time. Refuse, in case they fail to underwrite, that their ships and goods should be seized on ("because it were shameful for them to presuppose such a necessity"), but acknowledge that power and justice would then be in the King's hand to take entire satisfaction on their whole estate. [Three pages. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 62.]
220. Draft of the "article" referred to in the previous paper, in which the Dutch Company undertake to pay the English East India Company the sum of [left blank], in current money of England, the 10th day of March next ensuing, in the East India House, commonly called Crosby, in Bishopsgate Street, in the city of London, and in default the Dutch Commissioners bind themselves and their principals, with their ships and goods, to pay the sum of 150,000l. to the English Company. [One page and a quarter. French. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 63.]
221. "An article touching the realls of eight." The Netherlands Company is indebted to that of England in the sum of 97,320 ryals of eight found in the ships Star, Bear, and Dragon at the time of their capture, which they promise to restore in specie to the English Company in London within one month after demand made by the English deputies at Amsterdam. [Three quarters of a page. French. East Indies, Vol. II., No. 64.]
222. "Agreement between the States Ambassadors and the East India Company in England." That after long debate the King's Commissioners and the States Ambassadors have finally agreed upon and settled all differences between the two companies, by which decision the sum of (sic, blank) becomes payable within three months to the English Company according to the articles agreed on, part at the hotel commonly called Crosby House, in the city of London, and part at Amsterdam, and moreover that out of that part to be paid in London the sum of 20,000l. sterling be paid in advance. [Two pages. French. Endorsed as above. East Indies, Vol. II., Nos. 65, 66. Two copies.]