House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 07 December 1621

Veneris, 7 Decembris

Informers.

SIR Edw. Coke: - That he hath drawn a Precedent, upon the new-writing of the Bill of Informers.

Message not to proceed against Goldsmyth.

Mr. Secretary: - That he is commanded by his Majesty to declare to the House, that his Pleasure is, that there shall be no further Proceedings in the Business against Goldsmyth, for any particular Case; but, if have offered Wrong to the House, for that leaveth him to the House.

Copies of Petitions, &c.

Master of the Rolls moveth, no Copy may be delivered, by any Member of this House, to any Stranger, not of the House; the Order being, for Members of the House, who are Counsellors of State.

Mr. Noye: - Wisheth, this Motion had been made sooner (doubteth, many already given out) because War the Subject of the Petition, and may prejudice our Subjects Goods and Persons, in Spayne. - To restrain it for hereafter.

Mr. Treasurer, accordant. - Doubteth the King's Displeasure, &c.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - That the Spanish Ambassador as good Intelligence from hence. - Not to make any Order now.

Mr. Mallett, accordant with Sir Ro. Phillippes; because this a Council of State, for our Countries, which hath trusted us wherewith fit to be acquainted.

Privilege - King's Letter.

Mr. Secretary and Mr. Speaker pressing to know the Resolution of the House, concerning that moved by Mr. Speaker, many of the House desired, in private Speech, Time of Deliberation; and the general called to Mr. Noye for a Report.

Mr. Noye: - 1. That generally thought, fit to give an Answer to the King's Letter, for avoiding Suspicion of Sullenness and Contempt: This warranted by many former successive Precedents. 2ly, Some, not an Excuse, but a Justification; else a Fault acknowleged. - To excuse is to accuse. - Others, a Narration only ; leaving it to his Majesty's Judgment, whether a Justification, or Excuse : Others, not to alter or retract the former Declaration. 3ly, Propounded, to have his Majesty know, who had informed him : - Others, that this too near an Inquisition, and pressing upon his Majesty: Others, to desire the King hereafter to be informed by no particular Man, but the House. - Relateth the Proceedings of the Sub-committee; which made also a Sub-sub-committee, to draw the Writing: Who drew it, and agreed upon it amongst themselves; presented it to the Sub-committee; and from them to a Committee of the whole House; where read by Parts, and resolved to be now presented by the House to be confirmed, or altered, here, as this House shall think fit. - Questioned, and doubtful, whether best to annexed the old to this new Declaration ; because the King, by his Letter, had refused to hear that, and so might refuse, by the Annexing of the old, to see or hear the new. - Desireth their Pardon, for any Misreporting, because they would not give him Leave not to do amiss.

Ly. Dudley.

Lord Chief Baron and Mr. Baron Bromley bring from the Lords a Bill, intituled, An Act to enable Dame Alice Dudley, Wife of Sir Ro. Dudley Knight. -

Declaration to the King.

The new Declaration read intirely,

Sir H. Poole moveth, it may be read by Parts.

Sir Guy Palmes moveth, that, as read in Parts, every Man, that against any Part of it, may express his Dislike,

Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy: - The Word, " tax, " not fit: " Burthened," a better Word.

Lord Clifford: - " Tax " fit here, because by Misinformation.

Mr. Secretary, - for the Word " burthened." - So Sir D. Digges.

Upon Question, the first Part, to the Words, " And we humbly beseech," resolved to pass.

Sir Edw. Coke: - 11 H. IV. a Request to the King. to be informed only from the House [a].

The 2d Part, to " when your Majesty," resolved to pass.

The 3d Part, to " when your Majesty," resolved to pass.

Mr. Secretary excepteth against the Clause, " That we conceive not but," &c, when doubteth, will be a Contestation with the King against his Letter.

Declaration to the King.

Upon Question, the Words, " some of," added; and "hitherto" put out.

Upon Question, the 4th Part, to the Words, " the Consideration whereof," passed.

Upon Question, the 5th Part, to the Words, " in the Discourse whereof," &c.

Upon Question, the Word, " begun," not to be put in. Upon Question, the Words, "and to his several Armies now on foot," to be added.

Upon Question, the 4, to the Words, in the Discourse," &c. resolved to pass. -

Thames Navigation.

Sir Ch. Caesar, and Sir Ew. Thelluall bring, from the Lords, a Bill for making the River of Thames navigable from Bercott to Oxford. - Not doubting, but this House will give it a favourable Acceptation, in respect it concerneth the University of Oxford -

Declaration to the King.

The 6th Clause, to these Words, " this being the Effect," &c. -

Mr. Secretary, - against sending the Petition, unreformed in the Two Points restrained by his Majesty's Letter. - Will consent to the Petition, concerning Religion, and Bills.

Mr. Hackwill agreeth, not to annex the old Petition to this new; but to send it by the same Messengers : And that, when his Majesty hath read the new, the Messengers may move him to vouchsafe to read the old.

Sir Tho. Wentworth: - To be humble Suitors to his Majesty, to read our old Declaration; and in this to desire him to do it; for which Purpose, we now send it by the same Messengers. - Not to have it annexed, but to send it single by the same Messengers.

Mr. Brooke: - That the old Declaration must of necessity be sent, either annexed, or by itself, by the same Messengers - Indifferent to him, whether.

Mr. Crew: - The Petition, now resolved upon, to prepare the King to cast his Eye upon the old Declaration. - The Woman of Tekoa. - Not to annex it; but to be sent by him, that carrieth the Annexation.

Sir Sam. Sands: - That, after his Majesty hath read our now Petition, the Messengers may let his Majesty know, they have our old Declaration, if it shall please his Majesty to require the Sight of it.

Sir Geor. Moore: - That, in the Maintenance of our old Declaration, we contest not with the King, but with the Report, which we conceive to be a Misreport. - Carried by the Messengers, not annexed: - And the Messengers to desire his Majesty to read it, when our now Petition read.

Sir Ro. Phillippes, - against Annexation; - For that to enforce the King to take both, or leave both : - But the Messengers to be humble Suitors to his Majesty, to read this old.

Mr. Sherfeild: - That this Petition may express our Desire to cast his Eyes upon it.

Resolved, The old Declaration shall go with the new Petition ; but not annexed.

The Clause, of, " graciously receive," to be added

The . . Clause, to, " but whereas your Majesty, by," resolved to pass.

Mr. Noye, - against the Word " But;" - and, to make it, "And.'" - Next, that the Word, "that" -

The Words, " which we assure ourselves," &c. -

The last Part, upon Question, passed.

The Whole. upon Question, passed, as now amended ; and to be ingrossed, and brought back to this House To-morrow Morning.

Mr. Noye: - Whether not fit to send this by the Speaker to his Majesty.

Sir Ro. Phillippes concordat: - Because a Matter of the greatest Importance, that ever any in this House.

Sir W. Earle: - Mr. Speaker to be accompanied with Forty.

Sir Nath. Rich : - If had 1,000 Voices, Mr. Speaker should have all, to go.

Mr. Secretary, contra. - If had 1,000 Voices, should have none ; because will hinder the End of a Session, and Passing of Bills; a Thing desired by ourselves. - Doubteth, this will be construed but a Diversion. -

Remembereth the last End of last Meeting, our desiring Bills: Adjournment at first disliked, after accepted. This ill taken by his Majesty. - Now to prepare Bills

Sir Francis Seymor: - Knoweth not, if Mr. Speaker should stay; yet not fit to proceed with any Business, till an Answer of this.

Sir D. Digges: - To prepare for a Session. - Mr Speaker not to go, but some others to be sent; the rather, because the Word, " Messengers," in the Petition now agreed upon.

Sir Edw. Gyles: - By all means to have a Session.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - Loth to carry down News, that we have lost our Privileges. - Not now to meddle with any Bills, till Answer. Bills but an Accident of well-being; our Privilege of the Essence of Being. - Thinketh this best for his Majesty's Service.

Sir Geor. Chaworth: - Not to send this by the Speaker, to be delivered by Word of Mouth ; but in writing, by Messengers. - To go on with our Bills.

Mr. Mallory, contra. - Wisheth, none had ever gone with any Message, but the Speaker.

Sir Geor. Moore: - Sapiens incipit a fine. - Doubteth, Mr. Speaker's going will not give Satisfaction to the King, and will hinder the Business of the Commonwealth. - That this may be great Loss of Time. That no Speaker ever went so far as Newmarkett.

Sir Sam. Sands: - Not to contrary ourselves, by saying, in our Petition, "we cannot proceed"; and yet proceed. Sir Edw. Coke: - That we cannot, by the Frame of our Petition, proceed with Bills, &c. till this Cloud removed. Serjeant Ashley, accordant.

Sir Tho. Hobby : - Never heard, any Speaker ever sent as a Messenger, to deliver any Writing, but a Speech. Sir J. Horsey, contra.

Mr. Noy : - If Mr. Speaker go, we must adjourn the Court; and that must be for a Day certain : - May not be by Adjournment here, for any long Time: - If should, and Mr. Speaker hindered to come, may endanger a Discontinuance of the Parliament.

Sir N. Rich: - That Mr. Speaker should first deliver the Sum of our Petition verbally, and then leave the Petition, in Writing, with the King.

Mr. Hackwyll: - That Gargrave a Speaker here, yet appointed to deliver a Petition to the King. - Yet thinketh not fit, Mr. Speaker should go ; because the Lords daily send down Bills.

Sir Edw. Seymor, - for Mr. Speaker's going; that it may appear to his Majesty, how far we are stricken with it. Mr. Amnerst, - against Mr. Speaker his going. Mr. Pymme observeth the Danger of Discontinuing of the Parliament. - Know not, when the King will give Mr. Speaker Audience. - Not to send Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Neale: - Not to lose the Ends of our coming, for Particulars. - Is against Mr. Speaker's going.

Sir W. Withrington : - That it was ordered, that all Proceedings should cease, till an Answer from his Majesty. - If the Clerk have not entered it, to have it now ordered. Mr. Weston, - against Mr. Speaker's going. - That we may go on with Parliament Business.

Mr. Shervyle: - To proceed in nothing, till Answer from the King : And to have this ordered.

Sir Wm. Strowde, - against Mr. Speaker's going; and against doing any thing here, till Answer. - Never Speaker went, till known, by some, when the King would give him Audience. Upon the Restraint of Impositions, the House forbare to proceed : yet the King writing, and enlarging us, we proceeded. - Cannot do so now, if Mr. Speaker should be absent.

Mr. Mallett, against a Cessation : - Yet Mr. Speaker to go.

Sir Tho. Wentworth: - To put a Question, whether Mr. Speaker shall go, or not.

Mr. Chidleighe: - against Mr. Speaker's going. - A Cessation not fitting. Our Privileges not taken away by the King's Letter, being our Inheritance; but only questioned.

Mr. Brooke : - Wisheth, Mr. Noye had not made the Motion, before which no Man thought of it, or wished it. Doubteth, no such Precedent, as Mr. Hackwyll voucheth . -

A Speaker no Carrier, or Conveyor. - The Adjournment must be for a certain Time.

Sir Francis Goodwyn: - To have the Question first, whether any Cessation: For, if resolved, a Proceeding in Business,'a Consequence, Mr. Speaker cannot go, - Mr. Speaker not to go; and Business to stay, till his Majesty's Answer known.

Serjeant Towse, - against Mr. Speaker's going : For Danger of Discontinuance.

Mr. Gage:- - No Cessation. - This questioned last Convention in Parliament, and the House disavowed any Cessation. - If now send our Speaker, implieth a Cessation, of necessity.

Mr. Hackwill: - That he hath seen the Precedent he vouched : Findeth it, not to warrant it.

Mr. Speaker desireth, in respect of the Honour of the House, not to put that upon him, which was never put upon any former Speaker.

Sir Sam. Sands, - Against the Speaker's going ; because may be more conveniently done otherwise.

Resolved, by general Consent, Mr. Speaker shall not go.

The former Messengers to carry this Petition: And the former Declaration to be sent by the same Messengers, and to be presented to his Majesty ; with an humble Request, his Majesty will be contented to hear it; But this not to be annexed.

Ordered, All those Messengers shall be warned to prepare themselves to go; and to be here, for their Direction, To-morrow Morning, at Eight of the Clock.

Upon Question, Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy not to be spared.

Sir Guy Palmes moveth, no Bills may proceed, till an Answer from his Majesty.

Mr. Glanvyle : - In the Morning, first to resolve upon the Carrying of the Petition ; and then concerning the not Proceeding in Business, till the King's Answer.

Resolved, To defer the Debate of this last, till Tomorrow Morning.