House of Commons Journal Volume 1
07 March 1607 (2nd scribe)

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1802

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 07 March 1607 (2nd scribe)', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 1: 1547-1629 (1802). URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=7200 Date accessed: 19 September 2014.


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Saturni, 7o die Martii, 1606

Grand Committee.

SIR Edwyn Sandys moveth, that the grand Committee, being not yet fully prepared, might retire themselves into the Court of Wards, and report to the House.

Desmaistres' Nat.

1. Reading: - B. For the Naturalizing of James Desmaistres, and Mary his Wife,

Buildings.

1. Reading: - B. To restrain the Multitude of inconvenient Buildings, &c.

Committees.

Tompson: - Tuesday.

Marshalsea; Due Debts : - Thursday.

Union with Scotland.

Sir Edwyn Sandys reporteth the Travel in the Committees. - The Business so difficult, and so long, as they could not go thorough all: - But Propositions summarily. -

Multitude of Objections the Way to find out the Truth. -

1. Point, a Result of their former Labour, not any Entrance into a new. -

Resolved, to wrap the ante-nati, and post-nati, both in One; and to swerve from the Instrument.. -

Reasons to be offered, if it be urged by the Lords in Point of Law. -

With all Reverence of the Judges. -

The Judges not so great in the Parliament Houses.

Every honest Man will be wary, upon his Oath; much more Judges. -

The Judges heard the Lords first.

2. The Word " Naturalization," a new Word in the Law; a dangerous Word: Seven Years before it can be made familiar. -

Too large: - Inheritable to Magna Charta. - Imply a Contradiction. The Word "enabling," better. First the General, and then the Particular, most natural. -

To use the Word Naturalization, with Interpretation of Meaning, that it should have no further Meaning, than those Particulars we did assent unto.

3. What Kind of Union. -

Two Kinds : 1. By Naturalisation, the Kingdom still divided. 2. Another consolidate the Two Kingdoms : One Body, One Law, One Kingdom. -

The Act of Parliament of the Scotts: - Reserving fundamental Laws. -

To deal in this Union ; but to declare their uniform Desire, to have the first, if the Scottish will be subject to our Laws, our Government. -

Three Reasons: The King and we differ: Which is not so : We desire the same.

2. If they will have a perfect Union, they have limited us to an imperfect Union. Impediment in themselves.

3. This Proceeding more beneficial, than otherwise. - Cautions, Restrictions, make: Consider of the Impediment from themselves. -

A great Impediment. - Bar a French Naturalization. -

Arguments negative, not to take this away. -

1. We should hurt them, and do ourselves no Good. In their Customs : - Many Pensions.

2. Tend to the Advantage of the French King, and Disadvantage of ours. His Customs shall be presently raised, our own presently diminished.

3. What Harm to us? They may take Part against us : Then Traitors. Affirmative.

1. The Bitterness of the Compact. - Hostem communem feriamus - Colores nostros, &c,

2. Implies an Obedience, Confederation, to the Crown of France.

3 A great Affection and Affiance with France, less love us. -

That they should renounce their foreign Incorporation with France. This no Condition, but the Act should not have his Operation. -

Two Kind of Doubts: 1. Of Hesitation : 2. To draw Reason. -

Not to be naturalized at all. No Innovation, but where evidens utilitas, urgem necessitas. Necessity provided : No Commodity to be expected. -

That it was necessary for the perfect Union: Profitable not in Merchandize; that mechanical; but in common Service, Love, Strength.

The chief Reason, his Majesty's Satisfaction. - That we may gratify him by all Means.

So long as we stand divided, to reserve, as well as they. -

To be permanent: Not dispensable, until a perfect Union. -

To exclude all Travellers, - In Poland.

It could not be good. - Enable them to the first Degree : All will come on. -

That, though it were not so, yet great Authority may do. -

What Power of a Non Obstante -

Answ. That in the Act some Provision to restrain the Letters Patents. -

Though the King not to grant, yet the Subject to receive. -

A Prohibition with Pain, dispensable; without Pain, not.

Cautions. -

Inheritance: Purchase : Chattels real. -

Preferments ecclesiastical: - University. -

Offices, Honours, Trades, and Sciences. -

Whether proceed By the Affirmative, or Negative. - Resolved, to proceed by particular Affirmative: Then by Restraint of Grace, what we would do. -

Purchase : Inheritance. -

Inconveniencies in this. Two: 1. Lands here. Person in Scotland: Enjoy the Profit, but not bear the Burden. Burdens follow the Person very many.

2. A Scottishman many Copyholders: - Turn all out, a Tenant commits Waste. -

Conditions in other Countries. Dummodo sit regnicola, in France. -

Conclus. To enable to purchase Land; to make them subject to Burdens; to every private Actions. -

A French Bishop, a Cardinal: Went to Rome, lost his Possessions. -

Scotts transport our Treasure ; impoverish ours, enrich them, -

Poverty the Cause of Discontent: Discontent the Cause of all Innovations. -

Old Laws, not to export. -

The Duke of Lenneux hath the Profits of the Duke of Albany. -

Duke of Chattillereault -

This exporting to be proposed, as a Doubt, to their Lordships. -

Another Consideration, whether Committees of English Words. -

Negat. 1. In other Cases they leave their Money, if they purchase ; in this they take all. -

Body, and Lands. - English Ward educated in Scotland: Not so good, so convenient, for our State. -

What Remedy, if he be wrong, so good; so soon great Mischief -

Marriage. - Hard to be in the Disposition of Scotts ; How easily they may be drawn. -

Great Commendation of the Two Masters of Wards. -

To no Stranger.

Lands. - Lessee of a Ward's Lands, cutteth down Woods, pulleth down Houses, getteth into Scotland: The Lease endeth, the Condition faileth. -

Conclus. Not to have Wards educated in Scotland; but, whether to be married, to be propounded, as a Doubt -

2. Preferments ecclesiastical. - Want for our own Nation - Resolved, to allow them a Tenth Part of Deanries, &c. except Bishopricks. -

No Scottishman to have Two Benefices, and Two Dignities; but One Benefice, One Dignity: A Master of Art, before he had One Benefice, or Dignity; a Bachelor of Divinity, before he had a Benefice, and a Dignity. - Headships in the same Case of Bishops. -

Offices. - Sheriffs, Justice, &c. - Many Objections. -

Desire, whether the Word " Judicature," in the Instrument did extend to these Places. -

Distribution. -

Sir Edw. Sandys, - That we mean to deal with ante-nati, or post-nati, alike :

To declare our Meaning in the Word Naturalization :

To declare our Meaning in the perfect Union. -

If the first Part, touching ante-nati, &c. be opposed, Sir Maurice Berkley -

Foreign Naturalization with France : Sir H. Nevill, Mr. Dudley Carleton.

Matter of Law, touching ante-nati, and post-nati : Mr. Brock, Mr. Brook, Mr. Martin, Mr. Crewe, to offer some further Benefit, than by the Common Law; or the K. by the Common Law. -

Matter of Lands and Possessions: Sir Roger Owen, Sir Nath. Bacon. -

Matter of Wards : Mr. Attorney-general, Mr. Francis Moore. -

Ecclesiastical Preferments: Sir John Bennett, Mr. D. James.

Justices of Peace : Sir Geo. Moore, Sir Antho. Cope.

Mr. Hadley excuseth himself, because he is against it in his Opinion. -

The King may make any Scottishman a Denizen, and bestow any Living, any Office, &c.

Any Tradesman, Alien, under the Protection of the King, &c,

We give them One, the King all the rest; and then we cannot restrain the King.

Mr. Lewknor; - That no Man might be employed that is against it.

Sir H. Nevill, Mr. Carleton: - Would know the Purpose. -

Quamdiu Scoti sunt in obedientia, tamdiu fruantur privilegiis.

Q. Whether Mr. Hedley : - Resolved, No.

Q. Touching the Lawyers: - Resolved, Mr. Brock. Mr. Crewe, Mr. Hedley, to undertake.