House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 28 March 1607 (2nd scribe)

Saturni, 28 Die Martii, 1607

Sackvill's Patent.

2. Reading: - B. Whereby Richard Sackvill, Esquire, is enabled to make a Surrender to the Kings Majesty: - All the Privy Council, being Members of the House, the King's learned Council, Sir Tho. Waller, Sir Fr. Fane, Sir Geo. Fane, Burgesses of Port Towns, Sir John Hungerford, Sir H. Poole, Mr. Bowyer, Sir Edw. Hales, Sir Rich. Bulkley, Sir Rich. Mullineux, Sir John Parker, Sir Tho. Lowe, Sir Walter Cope, Sir John Hollice, Sir Wm. Twysden, Mr. Wymark, Sir Tho. Bishop, Sir Rob. Wingfield, Mr. Wallys, Sir Rob. Mansfield, Mr. Tolderby, Sir Geo. Moore, Mr. Recorder, Sir Henry Nevill, Sir Tho. Challoner, Sir Hugh Beeston, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Twynhoe, Mr. Noy, Mr. Ravenscroft: - This Afternoon, Exchequer.

Kent Marshes.

2. Reading: - B. Touching the drowned Marshes of Lesnes and Fants within the County of Kent: - The former Committees ; Knights, Burgesses of Essex, Kent, and Barons of the Cinque Ports;

Union with Scotland.

Mr. Carleton beginneth. - That we may make Advantage of this Difference, to deal with the ante-nati first, with such Restrictions, as we think fit: Then the post-nati, if we think good. -

To declare, and set down, in this House, to all Posterity, that we think the Law to be otherwise.

Mr. Duncombe: - Est modus in rebus, - That we should have no Conference; but to send to the Lords, that they would frame Bills.

Sir John Hollice; - To have it committed. - Short Reasons will best deliver the Business.

Sir Maurice Berkley: - Now nothing but an Answer to the -

Inconveniencie will be greater, to enable the ante-nati, than post-nati. -

A Conference, to hear their Reasons, and deliver ours. -

Non distinguendum, ubi lex non distinguit. -

To make no Difference in Point of Conveniency, where there is none in Point of Law.

Sir Herbert Crofts: - To give the ante-nati more Favour, because of much more Desert. -

As easy, and feasible, to make a perfect Union, as this -

1. No Conference, till we had debated, whether convenient, or inconvenient.

2. To devise some Means, how we might present our Desire, to his Majesty, of a perfect Union.

Sir Fr. Bacon: - Uniting, in Law, prevents all Relapse. Dulcis tractus pari jugo. -

Our Prerogative heavy, their Liberties dangerous. -

A happy Commixture of our Laws, and theirs. Our Proceedings formal, theirs summary. -

Our Laws, and theirs, like our Language, and theirs: Theirs mixt a little with French Constitutions, and the Civil Law. -

The Review of our Laws, and theirs, might work a better Digest of our Laws. -

In veste varietas sit, scissura non sit. - Though Inconformity in our Laws, yet no Separation. -

In France, Provinces of the written Law, and others; as Gascoigne, Guyenne; - yet Naturals. -

In a Pair of Tables no Letter, without spunging out - First take out the old Mark of Separation, before the Mark of natural. - No Creature reclaimed, till you feed him. -

Our living Laws will flow to them. Regis ad exemplum lotus, &c.

Naturalization first, before we can imprint the Laws. -

If we should naturalize them by the Poll, better the ante-nati. Such, as have sucked the Teats, since the King's coming, more adjoined to us. Nemo subito fingitur. -

Aliud est esse, aliud nunquam aliter fuisse.

The Time of planting. - Not how they are, but how they were born.

Astrologers look at the Time. -

Our Law would never admit the ante-natus to be legitimate, but the Canon Law did : The Parliament refused it. -

Aliens, Friends in one Degree. A Difference between Spaniards, that were Enemies, and Flemings, that never were. -

Cardinal's Estate.

Sir John Crook and Mr. D. Swale bring a Bill from the Lords : -

An Act to make the Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments, of William Cardinall deceased, liable to the Payment of five hundreth Pounds, heretofore decreed in his Majesty's Court of Whitehall, with Costs and Damages. -

Union with Scotland.

Sir Rob. Wingfield: - That we may debate, whether a Conference.

Sir Roger Owen: - Birds shewed their .. . by their pluming. -

Divers Meridians, yet meet in the Pole : Divers Opinions, yet One End. -

St. Austin wished, that he had been ante-natus, in Time of the Law, to have seen Christum incarnatum, - Wish, that they had seen the Crown set upon the King's Head. -

If we be Brethren, let us go in one Colour of Cloak. Scissura. -

Birds, within our Command, may be reclaimed in our Cage; Birds, in the Air, will not be inticed with feeding. -

Never any Precedent in the World, to give them chief Privileges first, and then to desire an Union. -

If post-nati before ante-nati, a corpore ad umbram: inversa Geometria: Therefore not to confer with the Lords.- -

To shew our Reasons, why we cannot declare the Law, as the Judges. -

To present humbly to his Majesty our Desire of a perfect Union.

Mr. Brock : - 1. The Honour of the House. - That they will not so much as point at the Question in Law, Part of the Message Yesterday.

2. Whether the perfect Union, or Union secundum quid.

If our Cautions secured, and Exceptions established, much better to do something, than nothing : More haply will follow, than we intend. -

To have a Conference, with reference to the Discretion of the Committee.

Sir Antho. Cope: - That, since we are but half a Body, till our Members meet, we should give Answer, that we desire, it may be respited, till the King please we should meet again.

Mr. Attorney ; - No Man depart from his Plea. Never any Issue of divers Propositions. Ever Reason ad idem: No Points of Irish. - Conference, that it shall not bind. -

If we part thus, whatsoever we mean to restrain, is all loose. - The post-nati to be declared by the Judges, in Law ; the ante-nati to be endenized. -

Let us first know, what will be desired, before we resolve. -

That we should send -

Sir Geo. Moore: - To hear, what the Lords can say : To say what we can. -

Nothing allowed in point of Right: Caution, that nothing may bind us.