House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 27 March 1604

Martis, viz. 27o Die Martii, 1604

Infants.

L. 2. B. TOUCHING common Recoveries against Infants. - Committed to Mr. Solicitor, Sir Fr. Moore, Mr. Winch, Mr. Tate, Sir Henry Mountague, Sir Tho. Hesketh, Mr. Tho. Crewe, Mr. Anthony Dyett, Sir John Heigham, Sir Fr. Goodwyne, Mr. Lawrence Hyde, Mr. Hedley, Mr. Stoughton: Who were appointed to meet upon Saturday following, at Two a Clock in the Afternoon, in the Middle Temple Hall.

Cloth Trade.

Sir Geo. Moore moveth in Behalf of Clothiers and Clothing; urging the Decay, and Necessity of the Maintenance, of that Trade, Cloth being the most ancient and best

Staple Commodity of this Kingdom; and in particular remembereth the great Decay he hath of late found, by his own Experience, in the County of Surrey, the Country for which he served; and thereupon prayeth, a Committee Might be named, to consider of the fittest Course for the Remedying of all such Mischiefs or Inconveniences, as did hinder the Growth and Increase of that Trade.

To this Motion of a Committee the House was not then willing to yield; but thought it better, for Furtherance of the Effect of the Motion, that a Bill were framed, and brought into the House, by such as had peculiar Interest; and was left to that Course accordingly.

Cloth Trade.

L. 1. B. Limiting what Woollen Cloths may be conveyed over Seas, unbarbed, unshorn, or unrowed.

Privilege - Arrest of a Member.

This Day the Writ of Habeas Corpus, formerly awarded by Order of the House, for the Bringing in of the Body of Sir Thomas Shirley, one of the Members of the House, and Prisoner in the Fleet, was returned by the Warden of the Fleet; the Prisoner himself brought to the Bar; and Simpson the Goldsmith, and Watkyns, the Serjeant at Mace, as Delinquents, brought in by the Serjeant of the House. The Writ and Return was read by the Clerk in these Words : *** *

Mr. Speaker proposed divers Questions to be answered by the said Offenders; by whose Relation it was averred, that the Writ of Execution was taken forth the Thirtieth of January; was delivered to the Serjeant the Eleventh of February, before Sir Tho. was elected Burgess ; that Simpson and the Serjeant, in the Interim before the Arrest, had no Conference or Privity one with the other; that the Serjeant knew nothing at all of Sir Thomas his Election; but understood, by his Majesty's Proclamation, that no Person outlawed for Treason, Felony, Debt, or any other Trespass, ought to be admitted a Member of the Parliament; and was thereupon induced to think, that Sir Thomas Shirlye, standing outlawed, should not be elected or admitted a Burgess; which if he had known or suspected, he would have been very careful, not to have given Offence to this honourable House, by any such Arrest.

To this Sir Thomas was admitted to answer, who affirmed, that the Arrest was made the Fifteenth Day of March, the Day of his Majesty's first and solemn Entrance through London, at what Time he was going by Commandment to wait upon his Majesty; whereof, upon the first Offer to touch him, he wished the Serjeant to take Knowledge; as also, that he was elected a Burgess for the Borough of Steyning in the County of Sussex, to serve at this present Parliament; that, notwithstanding, they persisted in the Arrest, and carried his Body to the Prison of the Compter.

The Case being understood by the House, and the Parties withdrawn; sundry learned Members delivered their Opinion, both in the Point of Privilege, and in the Point of Law, for the State of the Debt, the Party being delivered out of Execution by Privilege.

For Matter of Privilege, it was avouched by One, as an ancient Ground, that it was to be allowed to every Member of the House, eundo, sedendo, morando, redeundo by others, that there was some Difference, whether the Party be sworn and admitted, or not sworn at the Time of his Arrest. For Matter in Law, it was disputed, whether Sir Thomas were subject to the Execution after the Parliament, and whether the Remedy were to be taken against the Sheriff or the Debtor; and a Difference put between a Discharge by Act of the Party, and a Discharge by Act in Law: In the One Case, the Execution altogether discharged; in the other, not. Other Manner of Discharges also remembered; as Discharge by Suspension, Discharge by Authority; and sundry Cases put upon them: And the whole Case, after long Dispute, summarily considered in Three Particulars; viz.

First, Privilege to a Member.

2. Interest reserved to a Stranger.

3. Punishment of the Offender.

Which being the Grounds of all the subsequent Arguments in this Case, the Dispute ended for this Day; with Caution, that the House should so proceed, as they gave not Way and Encouragement to others to practise to be arrested upon Execution, with a Purpose, by Pretence of Privilege, to discharge the Debt; and a Motion that a special Committee might be named for the Consideration of all the Questions and Doubts in this Case: And thereupon were named, the Lord Buckhurst, Mr. Secretary Herbert, Mr. Attorney of the Wards, Mr. Hitcham, Mr. Wiseman, Mr. Serjeant Shirley, Mr. Serjeant Lee, Sir Edward Hobby, Sir Robert Wroth, Sir Herbert Crofts, Sir Edm. Bowyer, Sir William Fleetwood junior, Sir Henry Nevill, Sir John Heigham, Sir Geo. Moore, Sir Fr. Hastings, Sir Thomas Bishop, Sir Nath. Bacon : With Authority to examine all the Doubts and Questions of that Case, and to hear the Counsel and Witnesses on both Parts: And were appointed to meet on Friday following, at Two a Clock in the Afternoon, in the Inner Temple Hall.

Wardship, &c.

Sir Fr. Bacon maketh Report of the Conference Yesterday between the Lords and this House; where, he said, he was merely a Relator, no Actor; and said further, that the Lords, upon their first Meeting, desired the Committees of this House to make the Proposition. Whereupon it was thought fit by the said Committee, not to mention any Objections, but only to shew, 1. Their dutiful Respect in the Handling of the Matter: And secondly, to open the Grief; adding some Cautions and Considerations to prevent Mistaking.

The Grief was, That every Man's eldest Son or Heir (the dearest Thing he hath in the World) was, by Prerogative, warranted by the Laws of the Land, to be in Ward to the King for his Body and Lands; than which, they conceived (to a free Nation) nothing to be more grievous.

But they esteemed it only a Grief, no Wrong; sithence it hath been patiently endured by our Ancestors, and by ourselves; and therefore they did press to offer it to the King's Grace, and not to his Justice. They knew it concerned the King in Two Sorts:

1. In his Revenue:

2. And in Reward to his well-deserving Servants, and Officers of the Wards.

That the Discharge of the Wardship of meane Lords was also to be thought on. -

And concluded, that their Desire and Resolution was, not to proceed by way of Bill, but by way of Petition to his Majesty for Licence to treat, &c.

Of the Lords, first, One answered that they had as much Feeling, as any, of the Burden; and that with a double Respect, because their Families were planted in Honour. That there was One other great Grievance, much complained of, in the Matter of Respite of Homage; wherein though the King were interested in Honour and Profit, yet their Desire was, that it might be coupled in the Petition, with the Matter of Wardship, as growing upon that Root.

It was affirmed by another Lord, that in the Matter of Respite of Homage, present Order was to be taken, by special Direction from his Majesty; and that for the Grievance of Purveyors, there was some Order taken already, and all convenient Means daily thought on, for Relief and Ease of the Subject: But they knew this House did not intend to decry or dismiss the King of his Prerogative; and that this Grievance was to be reformed by Law, and not by Petition.

Sir Francis continued his Report of another Lord's Speech, which (he said) he did but only report, not deliver as a Message. It contained Three Points :

1. His Affection to the House of the Commons.

2. His good Wishes unto it.

3. The great Benefits the King bringeth with him ; as the Peace we have by him, and the Latitude and Prospect of that Peace.

That the King was born for us: - That a People may be without a King; a King cannot be without a People. - A Persuasion that the House would answer him in all good Correspondence:

1. In Modesty, that our Desires be limited.

2. In Plainness, that we lay ourselves open in the naked Truth of our Hearts.

3. In Order and Comeliness of Proceeding, which is the Band and Ornament of all Societies.

The same Lord touched the Case of Sir Francis Goodwin, as a thing he had heard at large, but did not understand it; and therefore desired to know it more particularly from this House.

Answer was made, that they had no Warrant from the House to speak of it.

In this Conference it was observed, that sundry other of both Houses, besides the Committees themselves, were present; which was conceived to be against Order.

Purveyors, &c.

It was moved to have some Proceeding in the Matter of the Purveyors: And thereupon, by Direction of the House, Mr. Speaker made the Question :

Q. Whether the Grievance of Purveyors and Car-takers, &c. shall be proceeded in by Bill ?

And Resolved, by general Voice, in the Affirmative.

Privilege-Jurisdiction in Elections.

Sir Edward Cook, his Majesty's Attorney General, and Mr. Doctor Hone, bring a Message from the Lords; expressing with what Acceptation their Lordships entertained their Motion Yesterday, not only for the Matter, being of very great Weight and Consequence, but especially for the Manner: Namely, That touching Wardship, they would not petition for Ease in it, as a Matter of Wrong, but of Grief; and pray to be relieved by Grace, and not by Justice. And their Lordships, for Answer, were desirous, and moved at that time, to couple in the same Petition the Matter of Grievance of Respite of Homage, which his Majesty, out of his gracious Favour and Love to his People, had himself taken Knowlege of. And as they conceive it to be likely, that the Conference may continue between the two Houses, touching the said. Matters; as they are very zealous of the Furtherance of their Purpose, so are they jealous of any Impediment that may breed Lett or Hindrance therein: Therefore they desire, for a more clear Proceeding and Removing of all Stumbling-blocks, that the former Committees may, in a second Conference to be had, have Authority to treat touching the Case of Sir Francis Goodwin, the Knight for Buckinghamshire, first of all, before any other Matter were further proceeded in.

A. The Answer to this Message (as in such Cases is, for the more part, usual) That they would return Answer by Messengers of their own.

Upon this Message it was argued by some, That in no sort, they should give Account to the Lords of their Proceeding in the House; but that Mr. Speaker should, from the House, be a Suitor to his Majesty to have Access , and, as their common Mouth, give his Highness Satisfaction, by Direction from the House. That now the Judgment of Sir Francis Goodwin's Case having passed the House, it could not, nor ought not, to be reversed by them. A Precedent, Anno 27o Eliz. cited ; where a Bill brought down from the Lords, upon the first Reading was rejected. The Lords sent Messengers to demand a Reason of their Judgment. It was denied to yield any Reason.

This Argument brought forth this Question, which Mr. Speaker was ordered by the House presently to make; viz.

Q. Whether they should confer with the Lords, touching the Case of Sir Francis Goodwin, the Knight for Buckinghamshire?

And Resolved, That they should not.

It was then considered, as fit to return some Answer to the Message from the Lords: And Mr. Secretary Herbert with some other of the Committees, were appointed to deliver to their Lordships from the House, That they did conceive, it did not stand with the Honour and Order of the House, to give Account of any of their Proceedings or Doings; but if their Lordships have any Purpose to confer for the Residue, that then they will be ready at such Time and Place, and with such Number, as their Lordships shall think meet.

Prohibition.

L. 1. B. Touching Costs in a Prohibition.

Manors, &c.

L. 1. B. For the Preservation of Manors and Copyhold Lands.

Brewers.

L. 1. B. For the Reducing of those who exercise the Trade of Brewing within London, the Suburbs, and Two Miles thereof, into the Company of Brewers, and to be ruled and governed by the Orders of that Company. - Spoken unto, upon the first Reading, and upon Argument, and a Question made, rejected.

Answer from Lords.

Upon the last Message to the Lords, the Messengers return, That their Lordships would presently send Answer by Messengers of their own.

Privilege- Jurisdiction in Elections.

Sir Edward Cooke, his Majesty's Attorney General, Mr. D. Carew, Mr. D. Hone, and Mr. Tyndall, delivered from the Lords, That their Lordships taking notice in particular of the Return of the Sheriff of Buck' and acquainting his Majesty with it, his Highness conceived himself engaged and touched in Honour, that there might be some Conference of it between the Two Houses; and to that End signified his Pleasure unto them, and by them to this House.

Upon this Message, so extraordinary and unexpected, the House entered into some Consideration what were fit to be done; and resolved, That his Majesty might be moved for Access the next Day : And afterwards they understood his Pleasure to be, That they should attend at Whitehall, at Eight a Clock the next Morning. But, because the Time was then somewhat far spent, they ordered, That the House, with Mr. Speaker, should meet at Six a Clock the next Morning, in the House.

Yet, afore their Rising, they thought fit to name a Committee, to set down the Effect of that which Mr. Speaker was to deliver from the House to the King; viz. Sir Francis Bacon, Mr. Wentworth, Mr. Martin, Mr. Serjeant Snig, Sir Robert Wroth, Mr. Francis Moore, Sir Henry Mountague, Sir William Fleetwood, Mr. Fuller, Sir Edwyn Sandis, Sir Francis Hastings, Mr. Wiseman, Sir George Moore, Sir Edward Hobby, Sir Robert Cotton, Sir Thomas Lake, Sir Oliver St. John, Sir Edward Stafford, Mr. Serjeant Tanfield, Mr. Serjeant Hubbard, Sir Robert Wingfield, Mr. Hide, Mr. Diet, Mr. Wynch, Mr. Antrobus, Mr. Serjeant Dodridge, Sir Roger Wilbraham, Mr. Solicitor, Sir Edward Tyrrell: To meet at Four a Clock this Afternoon, at the Parliament Chamber in the Middle Temple.