Historical Collections of Private Passages of State: Volume 8, 1640-41. Originally published by D Browne, London, 1721.
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The Second day
Tuesday, March 23. 1640.
Lord High Steward.
Their Lordships being set, the Lord Steward recited in brief the proceedings of the day before, adding, that naturally and properly, it belongs (in the next place) for those whom the House of Commons have deputed to manage their Evidence, in pursuance of the Articles of Impeachment, to begin the work of the day.
Then Mr. Pym, one of the Committee appointed for the management of the Evidence, began as followeth.
We stand here by the Commandment of the Knights, Citizens and Burgesses, now assembled for the Commons in Parliament. And we are ready to make good that Impeachment whereby Thomas Earl of Strafford stands charged in their Name, and in the Name of all the Commons of England, with High Treason.
This, My Lords, is a Great Cause, and we might sink under the weight of it, and be astonished with the Lustre of this Noble Assembly, if there were not in the Cause strength and vigour to support it self, and to encourage us; It is the Cause of the King, it concerns His Majesty in the Honour of His Government, in the Safety of His Person, in the Stability of His Crown.
It is the cause of the Kingdom, It concerns not only the Peace and Prosperity, but even the Being of the Kingdom. We have that piercing Eloquence, the Cries and Groans, and Tears, and Prayers of all the Subjects assisting us. We have the three Kingdoms, England, and Scotland, and Ireland, in Travail and Agitation with us, bowing themselves, like the Hindes spoken of in Job, to cast out their Sorrows.
Truth and Goodness (My Lords) they are the Beauty of the Soul, they are the Perfection of all created Natures, they are the Image and Character of God upon the Creatures.
This Beauty, Evil Spirits, and Evil Men have lost; but yet there are none so wicked, but they desire to march under the shew and shadow of it, though they hate the reality of it.
This unhappy Earl, now the Object of your Lordships Justice, hath taken as much care, hath used as much cunning to set a face and countenance of Honesty and Justice upon his Actions, as he hath been negligent to observe the rules of Honesty in the Performance of all these Actions. My Lords, it is the greatest baseness of wickedness, that it dares not look in his own Colours, nor be seen in its natural Countenance. But Vertue, as it is amiable in all respects, so the least is not this, That it puts a Nobleness, it puts a Bravery upon the Mind, and lists it above Hopes and Fears, above Favour and Displeasure; it makes it always uniform and constant to it self.
The Service Commanded me and my Colleagues here, is to take off those Vizards of Truth and Uprightness, which hath been sought to be put upon this Cause, and to shew you his Actions and his Intentions, in their own natural Blackness and Deformity.
My Lords, He hath put on a Vizard of Truth in these words, (wherein he says) That he should be in his Defence more careful to observe Truth, than to gain Advantage to himself. He says, he would endure any thing rather than be saved by Falshood.
It was a noble and brave Expression if it were really true.
My Lords, He hath likewise put on the Vizard of Goodness on his Actions, when he desires to recite his Service in a great many particulars, as if they were Beneficial to the Common-wealth and State, whereas we shall prove them Mischievous and Dangerous.
It is left upon me, My Lords, to take off these Vizards and Appearances of Truth and Goodness, in that part of his Answer which is the Preamble. And that I shall do with as much Faithfulness and Brevity as I can.
1. The First thing (My Lords) that I shall observe in the Preamble is this, That having recited all those great and honourable Offices which he hath done under His Majesty, he is bold to affirm, That he hath been careful and faithful in the Execution of them all.
My Lords, If he might be his own Witness, and his own Judge, I doubt not but he would be Acquitted.
It is said in the Proverbs of the Adulterous Woman, That she wipes her mouth, and says, she had done no Evil. Here is a wiping of the mouth, here is a verbal expression of Honesty. But (My Lords) the foulness and unjustness will newer be wiped off, neither from his Heart, nor from his Actions; I mean for the time past, God may change him for the time to come: That is the first thing I observe.
2. My Lords, In the second place, out of his Apologetical Preamble, I shall observe this, He doth magnifie his own Endeavours in five particulars: 1. That he hath Endeavoured the maintenance of Religion. (I may miss in words, I shall not miss in sense.) 2 That he hath Endeavoured the Honour of the King.3. The Encrease of His Revenue. 4. The Peace and Honour, and Safety of the Kingdom. 5. The Quiet and Peace of the People. These are his five particulars; and I shall give a short Answer to e very one of them.
1. For Religion, (My Lords) we say, and we shall prove, that he hath been diligent indeed to favour Innovations, to favour Superstitions, to favour the Incroachments and Usurpations of the Clergy: But for Religion it never received any advantage by him, nay, a great deal of hurt.
2. For the Honour of the King: (My Lords) We say it is the Honour of the King that He is the Father of His People, that He is the Fountain of Justice; and it cannot stand with His Honour and Justice to have His Government Stain'd and Polluted with Tyranny and Oppression.
3. For the Increase of His Revenue: It is true, there may be some Addition of Sums; but we say, There is no Addition of Strength nor Wealth, because in those parts where it hath been increased, this Earl hath taken the greatest share himself: And when he hath spoiled and ravined on the People, he hath been content to yield up some part to the King, that he might with more security enjoy the rest.
4. For the Strength and Honour, and Safety of the Kingdom: (My Lords) In a time of Peace he hath let in upon us the Calamities of War, Weakness, Shame and Confusion.
5. And for the Quiet of the Subjects, He hath been an Incendiary, he hath Armed us amongst ourselves, and made us weak and naked to all the World besides. This is that I shall answer to the second Head of his Apology.
3. The Third is this, (My Lords) That by his means many good and wholesome Laws have been made since his Government in Ireland.
Truly, (My Lords) if we should consider the particulars of these Laws, some of them will not be found without great Exception. But I shall make another Answer, good Laws, nay, the best Laws are no advantage when Will is set above Law, when the Laws have force to bind and restrain the Subject, but no force to Relieve and Comfort him.
4. He says in the Fourth place, He was a means of calling a Parliament not long after he came to his Government. My Lords, Parliaments without Parliamentary Liberties, are but a fair and plausible way into Bondage; That Parliament had not the Liberties of a Parliament; Sir Pierce Crosby for speaking against a Bill in the Commons House, was sequestred from the Council-Table, and Committed to Prison.
Sir John Clotworthy, for the same Cause, was threatned that he should lose a Lease that he had. Mr. Barnewell, and two other Gentlemen, were threatned they should have Troops of Horse put upon them for speaking in the House. Proxies by dozens, were given by some of his Favourites: And (My Lords) Parliaments coming in with these Circumstances, they be Grievances, Mischiefs, and Miseries; no works of Thanks or Honour.
5. The Fifth is, That he hath been a means to put off Monopolies, and other Projects that would have been Grievous and Burdensome to the Subject. If he had hated the Injustice of a Monopoly, or the Mischief of a Monopoly, he would have hated it in himself; he himself would have been no Monopolist. Certainly, My Lords, It was not the love of Justice, nor the Common good, that moved him: And if he were moved by any thing else, he had his Reward. It may be it was because he would have no man gripe them in the Kingdom but himself; his own Harvest-crop would have been less, if he had had sharers. It may be it was because Monopolies hinder Trade, he had the Customs, and the benefit of the Customs would have been less; when we know the particulars we shall make a fit and proper Answer to them: But in the mean time, we are sure whatsoever was the reason, it was not Justice, nor love of Truth that was the reason.
6. He faith in the sixth place, He had no other Commission but what his Predecessors had: And that he hath Executed that Commission with all Moderation. For the Commission, it was no Vertue of his if it were a good Commission, I shall say nothing of that. But for the second part, his Moderation; when you find so many Imprisoned of the Nobility; so many men, some adjudged to Death, some Executed without Law; when you find so many publick Rapines on the State, Soldiers sent to make good his Decrees; so many Whippings in defence of Monopolies; so many Gentlemen that were Jurors, because they would not apply themselves to give Verdicts on his side, to be fined in the Star-Chamber.
Men of Quality to be disgraced, set on the Pillory, and wearing Papers, and such things, (as it will appear through our Evidence) can you think there was any Moderation. And yet truly, (My Lords) I can believe, That if you compare his Courses with other parts of the World ungoverned, he will be found beyond all in Tyranny and Harshness; but if you compare them with his mind and disposition, perhaps there was Moderation; Habits we say, are more perfect than Acts, because they be nearest the principle of Actions. The Habit of Cruelty in himself (no doubt) is more perfect than any Act of Cruelty he hath Committed; but if this be his Moderation, I think all men will pray to be delivered from it: And I may truly say that is verified in him, The Mercies of the Wicked are Cruel.
7. I come to the seventh, and that is concerning the King's Revenue: That he hath improved it from 57000l. to 120000l. and that he hath done it by Honourable and Just ways. That he hath made the Kingdom able to Support itself. That he hath improved the Kings Revenue by many rich and great Purchases. That he hath saved the Charge of the Navy, by bearing 7000l. a year in Ireland, which was born here before. And then he says for a Conclusion, That he never took Money out of the Kings Exchequer. My Lords, I must run over all these.
For the Enlargement or Increase of the Revenue of that Kingdom, I think there is a little fault in his Arithmetick, but I will not charge him with that now.
But for his Honourable ways of Increasing it; if Monopolies, if Vexation of the Subject, be Honourable ways, we shall leave that to your Lordships to judge. But most of his increases are made upon Monopolies. It is true, there is another way of bargaining, but it hath been mixed with Rigour and Rapine, and Injustice. Men have been driven out of their Estates; Offices have been found by force. Men have been driven to resign their Estates: And is this a Just way of improving a Kings Revenue? That I shall submit to your Lordships.
Then he says, He hath made the Kingdom able to Support it self: My Lords, He that hath no Harvest of his own, must Glean after another mans Reapers. Truly, this was none of his work: The Kingdom was able to subsist of it self before he came thither. For that we shall Appeal to the Records of the Exchequer, betwixt the year 1622. and the time of his Government, which was nine years at least, during which, nothing went out of this Kingdom to the support of that Island. The 7000 l. for the Navy, was born in Ireland before his time a year or two; so he comes near the truth of that, yet misses a year of the truth.
But if it were true; hath it been only by the ordinary Revenue that it hath supported it self? He hath had six Subsidies; a year, or two of Contribution, which the Irish gave towards the supporting of the Charge of Ireland. It was not his Husbanding, nor his managing of the Revenue; And truly if the Kingdom were able to support it self, (as it was before he came thither) by the Revenue of the Kingdom, and by the help of that Contribution, it would be very fit, (since there may be many Increases since) to know what is become of 300000 l. for six Subsidies, and of the Contribution money; and indeed there is a great suspicion, that that went another way. But that you may the better observe his Husbandry, I shall speak of his last years Accompt; the 20th of March, (now something more than a year since) the Under-Treasurer delivered an Account, on which there was 101000 l. remaining in the Kings Coffers. Since that time there hath been received 112000 l. for the King. (I speak of round Sums, (My Lords) I leave out shillings and pence, and such things: This is 213000 l. He hath received out of the Exchequer in England 50000l. There are Debts in Ireland, 60000l. and what other Debts we know not: Here is above 320000l. consumed in a year; which is almost as much as Queen Elizabeth consumed in any year when Tyrone was in Rebellion, and an Army of Spaniards was there.
My Lords, He faith he never took Money out of the Exchequer; if he rests in that Affirmation, it will be very near truth, yet serves but to shadow a falshood, which is worse, to cover and to glaze, under such a Colour of Truth as that is, a notable Falshood.
My Lords, It is true, he hath taken no Money out of the Exchequer; but he could be content to take from the Under-Treasurer of the Exchequer, 24000 l. about two years since, and to keep it for his own occasions; when the Kings Army was in want: And he paid it in but lately.
And before I pass from this matter of the Revenue, give me leave to speak something of the increase that comes in by the Customs.
It is true, there is a great increase; but if your Lordships look to the beginning of that bargain, you shall find the notablest cozenage that ever was offered to a Prince, in one that was a sworn Servant, and intrusted with so great a Charge.
It will be more fully opened in the Article that concerns the Customs; but I shall speak of it a little: He made a bargain, and under pretence of getting of 1350 l. gain to the King, he gave cause of Allowances and Defalcations; whereby he took forth of the Kings Purse 6000l. a year, or very near, which the King had before. He laid new Additions of charge on the Customs, which came to 12000l. So that on a bargain of giving 1350 l. more than was reserved on the former Lease, He was sure, that when he made the bargain, of gaining 18 or 20000 l.
8. But I shall pass from the Revenue of the Crown, to the Revenue of the church, (which is in the 8th place) He faith he hath been a great Husband for the Church, and truly hath brought in many Lands to the Church; but he hath brought them in by ways without Law, without Rules of Justice: He hath taken away means Inheritances. And here (My Lords) is an offering of Rapine, an offering of Injustice and Violence: And will God accept such an Offering? Must the Revenues of the Church be raised that way? It is true, it was the more in the way of his own Preferment. He knew who fat at the Helm here, the Archbishop of Canterbury; and such Services might win more credit with him. It was not an Eye to God and Religion; but an Eye to his own Preferment. I shall speak no more of that.
9. I come to the 9th head; and that is the building of Churches. Many Churches have been built since his Government. Truly, My Lords, why he should have any Credit or Honour, if other men builded Churches, I know not: I am sure we hear of no Churches he hath built himself: If he would have been careful to have set up good Preachers, that would have stirr'd up Devotion in men, and made them desirous of the knowledge of God, and by that means made more Churches, it had been something; But I hear nothing of Spiritual Edification, nothing of the knowledge of God that by his means hath been dispersed in that Kingdom. And certainly they that strive not to build up mens Souls in a Spiritual way of Edification, let them build all the material Churches that can be, they will do no good; God is not worshipped with Walls, but he is worshipped with Hearts.
10. He faith in the 10th place, That many Orthodox and Learned Preachers have been advanced by his means; and the Doctrine and Discipline of the Church of England, by his means Protected and Defended. My Lords, I shall give but two or three Patterns of the Clergy that he hath preferred. If you will take Doctor Atherton, he is not to be found now above Ground; for he was Hanged for many foul and unspeakable Offences.
Doctor Bramhill hath been preferred to a great Bishoprick; but he is a man that now stands charged with High Treason; he hath been but few Years in Ireland, and yet hath laid out at least 30000 l. in Purchases. I shall name but one Chaplain more, and that is one Arthur Gwyn, who about 1634. was an Under-Groom to the Earl of Cork in his Stable: In the year after Dr. Bramhill preferred him to be a Clergy-man; and a Parsonage, and two Vicaridges Impropriate, were taken from my Lord of Cork, and given to this Arthur Gwyn. I shall add no more Patterns of his Clergy.
11. I go to the 11th, and that is concerning the Army: He hath many glorious Expressions of his Service concerning the Army; That they are 1000 Horse of 2000 Foot: And that there hath been very few Papists Soldiers or Officers; and none preferred by himself. Truly, I think he says true, or within one of true in this; for there was but one preferred by himself, and therefore I shall not stand upon that.
But he says his Army was paid out of the Revenue of the Crown, which heretofore it was not wont to be. To that I have spoken before, and shewed, that many years before his time all the Charges of Ireland were born within Ireland.
He says (and I speak that as to the Army too) That neither the Arms nor Wages have been burdensom to the people of Ireland; but their Lodgings and Billettings have not been easy, and not without discontent. Why (My Lords) in Dublin it self, where they have a Charter that exempts them from Billetting of Soldiers, they have been fain to pay for Billetting of Soldiers. Nay, those Soldiers that were Servants and Dwellers in his own houses, and other places, must have their Billetting Money. And of this there hath been Petitions and Complaints; nay, it hath been spoken of in Parliament there; and yet he can tell you, that the Marching and laying of Soldiers is without burthen and grievance to the People; that was the Eleventh.
12. I go to the 12th, and that is the great increase of Trade; the increase of Shipping 100 to one. Truly (My Lords) in a time of Peace, and in a growing Kingdom as that was, being formerly unhusbanded, It is no wonder, that when Land increases in the Manurance, and People increase in Number, both Shipping and Trade encreases. But it is the advantage of the time, not the advantage of his Government; for (My Lords) his Government hath been destructive to Trade; and that will manifestly appear by the multitude of Monopolies that he hath exercised in his own person. And that is all I shall speak to the 12th.
13. The 13th is, That Justice hath been administred without Bribery, without Partiality, without Corruption; these are Glorious things. But there will as much fall upon him of Corruption and Injustice, as of any other Offence; And that (My Lords) will appear to you, through the whole course of our Evidence: I shall not now speak of the particulars. And that we may not content ourselves with particular witnesses only. I shall humbly desire, That the Remonstrance of the Parliament of Ireland, both of the Lords and of the Commons, may be read: And they will give a sufficient Testimony of the quality of his Justice.
14. The 14th (My Lords) is this, That he hath been a Means to His Majesty for a Parliament in England. It is true, he was; and it is as true, that we count that as mischievous a part of his design, as any thing else. Into what a miserable Dilemma (My Lords) did he bring the Kingdom, that we must surrender the Liberties of the Kingdom in Parliament, or see them oppressed with Force and Violence out of Parliament. The particulars of this I shall leave for the instant; for there is an Article that concerns this.
I have now passed through all the material parts of the Apologetical Preamble.
He concludes with a desire, That he may not be charged with Errors of his Understanding or Judgment, being not bred up in the Law, or with weakness, to which humane Nature is subject. Truly, it would be far from us to charge him with any such mistakes; No (My Lords) we shall charge him with nothing but what the Law in every mans breast condemns, the Light of nature, the Light of Common reason, the Rules of common Society: And that will appear in all the Articles which my Colleagues will offer to you.
My Lords, I have some few Witnesses which I shall desire may be heard to the points I have opened; and I shall in the first place desire, that Sir Pierce Crosby may be heard concerning the breach of Priviledge in Parliament: Also Sir John Clotworthy, Nich. Barnewell, Nich. Plunket, and Sir James Montgomery. I have some Witnesses to the point of Revenue, Sir Robert Pye, Sir Edward Warder, and Sir Adam Loftus.
Lord High Steward
Gentlemen, You who are of the Committee, I am commanded to let you know, That the Lords will allow you all the Testimonies you can produce to make good the Impeachment; but the Witnesses which you do produce, must be deposed before their Lordships.
Mr. Pym replied, My Lords, the Commons agree to it; and in t he first place we shall call Sir Pierce Crosby, who was sworn accordingly.
E. of Strafford
My Lords, I humbly crave leave whether I may not make my exception to any Witness.
Lord High Steward.
Yes, you may.
We desire to be heard upon that point of Exception, That if my Lord of Strafford will make any Exception why a Witness should not be heard at all, it may be according to the Rules of Justice.
Lord High Steward.
The Lord High Steward declaring, the Prisoner might except against the person of the Witness, if he have just Cause, my Lord of Strafford proceeded in substance as followeth:
E. of Strafford.
My Lords, I humbly conceive, that I have against this Gentleman Sir Pierce Crosby, just occasion of Exception, (as not being a competent Witness) for that the said Sir Pierce hath been sentenced in the Star-Chamber, for a very undue practise against me, tending to no less than the taking away of my Life, charging me, (and practising to prove it by Testimony of witness) that I had killed a man in Ireland, whom I protest, I did never so much as touch.
That ever since (the said Sir Pierce having broke Prison, and made an Escape out of the Fleet) he hath remained abroad, and never came hither till such time as the Parliament sate here, and now is returned to make Complaint in this business against me, or indeed against the Court of Star-Chamber rather: And standing thus, whether the said Sir Pierce shall be allowed a Witness against me, I humbly refer it to Your Lordships Judgments.
My Lords, We expected my Lord of Strafford would have shewn on what reason Sir Pierce was censured; for a man Criminous in one kind, may be nevertheless fit to give Testimony in another kind. If it be a particular practice against my Lord of Strafford, when their Lordships have heard what that practice was, and heard likewise the Witness, they will believe him according to the weight of the Testimony, compared with the fault, or whatsoever else is in the Sentence. But in the mean time, they conceive it is no Exception, but that the Witness should be heard, This that is charged on my Lord of Strafford, being a Crime of High Treason, it concerns the Common-wealth, the King being party, and not the Witness that is produced.
And whereas it is informed that Sir Pierce Crosby brake Prison: The Gentleman tells us it is not so; he paid the Kings Fine, and so was discharged. But though he had, it will not take away his Testimony when he is present; which he said, he spake only to give satisfaction to that aspersion.
Lord High Steward.
I must desire their Lordships directions, whether Sir Pierce Crosby be allowed, notwithstanding my Lord of Straffords exceptions against him, and Mr. Maynards allegations why his Testimony should be given in this case, or no: And divers of their Lordships called to have the House Adjourned to the House above, that they might there debate and determine it.
Mr. Pym; Mr. Maynard.
Mr. Pym did thereupon offer, that they will at present lay him aside till their Lordships have had opportunity to consider, and bring him again to morrow; whereunto Mr. Maynard added this further: We desire rightly to express ourselves to Your Lordships, we will lay him aside till Your Lordships have heard others, not that they wave him wholly: And we pray it may be so entred, The Lord Steward declaring it so to be.
Lord High Steward.
It is so understood.
In the next place, we desire that Sir John Clotworthy may be called, whom we produce to this point, That during the Parliament in Ireland, for speaking against a Bill in the Commons House, he was threatned by Sir George Ratcliffe, (whom we take to be bound up in one Cause with my Lord of Strafford, and to be moved by my Lord of Straffords spirit) and that Parliaments are not Priviledges, when Parliament Liberties are not observed.
Sir Jo. Clotworthy a Witness; The Question.
Sir John Clotworthy was sworn:
My Lords, We desire he may be asked, whether for having delivered his Opinion against a Bill preferred to the Parliament in Ireland by the Earl of Strafford, about the 10th year of this King, he was not asked by Sir George Ratcliffe, concerning a Lease that he had; the question intimating a Threat, that he should suffer for speaking so freely?
Sir Jo. Clotworthy.
To which he answered, My Lords, In the 10th year of the King, I serving in Ireland in Parliament, did Vote against a Bill; as soon as I had Voted against it, Sir George Ratcliffe, being one of the Tellers, on his counting the numbers, how many Yea's, and how many No's, He came to me, and said thus, Have not you a Lease in such a place? I told him yea; remember that, faith he: This is all I can remember. And this (he added) was in the Commons House.
2. He being interrogated whether he knew any thing of Sir Pierce Crosbies Commitment, or no?
He answered, I know it only by hear-say, he was a Member of the House when I had the Honour to serve; I heard the expression of Sir George Ratcliffe at that time: And the common voice was, that he was under restraint; but I saw him not.
3. Being asked whether there was any other occasion of these words but his said Vote:
He answered, Truly (My Lords) I can apprehend none.
4. Being asked whether he heard Sir George Ratcliffe threaten Sir Pierce Crosby in Parliament:
He answered, I heard Sir Pierce Crosby speaking against a Bill in Parliament; and as soon as he had fate down from speaking against the Bill, Sir George Ratcliffe said to him, That is not Privy-Councellor like, or to that purpose, I heard him.
To the point of Sir Pierce Crosby's being sequestred from the Council upon his speaking in Parliament.
Lo. Ranelagh a Witness.
The Lord Ranelagh being sworn, was interrogated whether about the 10th year of the King, he knew Exception to be taken against Sir Pierce Crosby, for delivering his Opinion in Parliament; and what proceedings were against him thereupon:
He answered, (My Lords) to the best of my remembrance, Sir Pierce Crosby being a Privy-Councellor in Ireland, was charged at the Council-Board for Voting against a Bill that was transmitted by the Lord Deputy and Council; and hereupon the Opinion of the Board was asked; and by the advice of that Board Sir Pierce Crosby was sequestred from the Council. This is as much as I can remember.
2. Being asked by whom he was sequestred:
He answered, By the Deputy and the Council.
3. Being asked who began the Question:
He answered, My Lord Deputy charged him.
E. of Strafford
My Lords, I humbly desire that my Lord Renelagh may be asked, whether when things are handled at the Council-Table, the Deputy be not the man that propounds them to the Council or no; not as a party complaining, but as belonging to the duty of his place: And how he behaved himself in that business.
To which the Lord Ranelagh being interrogated,
Answered, It is the constant course for the Deputy to propose the things that be brought to the Board; and seldom doth any of the Council propound any thing; but the Proposition comes from the Deputy.
But being further asked on the Committees motion, whether this of Sir Pierce Crosby's came to the Board by motion of my Lord alone, or that any other moved him in it, or conveyed it to him:
He answered, I cannot charge my memory where it had beginning; but as I remember, My Lord Deputy Wandersford that died last, and Mr. Wandesford, and Sir George Ratcliffe, were movers of it; but whether it moved originally from them, or from my Lord himself, I know not, I rather believe it proceeded from my Lord Deputy, as being proper for him.
L. Mountnorris a Witness.
The Lord Mountnorris sworn and interrogated, whether he was present at Council-Table when Sir Pierce Crosby was sequestred from Council-Table; and for what Reasons he was sequestred:
He answers, I was then present at Board, and he was removed on Complaint made by Sir George Ratcliffe at the Board, touching his Voting of a Bill in Parliament: and when he said it was not spoken like a Councellor, he said, he would answer it to him that made him a Councellor. That was the effect, as I can remember, of his Accusation; and there were several others that testified the same words that Sir George Ratcliffe accused him of, and that was the reason he was sequestred by most Voices at Council-Table, though he had many Votes with him.
And being further asked, what my Lord of Straffords Vote was:
He answered, It was for his Sequestration.
Nich. Barnewella Witness.
Mr. Nicholas Barnwell sworn; Being asked, whether for his delivering his Opinion in Parliament, Sir George Ratcliffe did ask whether the said Mr. Barnewell's house was capacious to receive 500 men, to be laid upon him: intimating thereby, that he must look for Soldiers to be upon him for that reason:
He answered, There was a Debate in the House concerning certain Boroughs sequestred from the House by reason of Judgment in the Exchequer, which the House conceived an Erronious Judgment, and were of Opinion that the old Boroughs should be called in; I was of that Opinion, Sir George Ratcliffe was of another Opinion; and would have another question debated: And coming out of the House, he asked me, Will not your House hold Five hundred men? I answered, you know what my house will hold as well as my self; and I smiling at it, he answered, But it is no laughing matter, you shall have 500 men laid on you.
E. of Strafford.
I desire it may be asked, when this was spoken:
He answered, It was in November last; and that my Lord of Strafford was not then in the Kingdom.
Mr. Pym observed, that the Spirit of my Lord of Strafford could move in Sir George Ratcliffe, wheresoever it was spoken; And Mr. Barnewell added, it was done in November then last.
In the next place, We shall shew the untruth of that part of my Lord of Straffords Preamble, that says, The Soldiers in Ireland are disposed with so much contentment to the People, that they are no burden to them.
Mr. Egor a Witness.
Mr. Egor was called for a Witness, and Sworn.
Being interrogated whether he knew of any Soldiers Billetted in Dublin? whether they were not a Grievance? whether that City hath not a special Charter of Exemption?
He answered, May it please Your Lordships, the City of Dublin doth bear the Charge of 40 Horse, and pays to them 45 l. a month for Billetting; which is conceived they would not bear, in regard they have a Charter that says, Nullus Mareschallus Capiat hospitium intra Civitatem; and therefore they conceive it a heavy burden, and it is as much as a Subsidy: And another part of the City standing in another county, pays 10l. a month; so they pay in all 55 l. a month.
E. of Strafford.
I humbly he may be asked, whether before my Lord of Straffords time, and as long as he can remember, The Lord Deputies Foot-guard, and Horse-Companies, were not Billetted in Dublin?
He answered, To the Foot-guard, when my Lord of Faulkland was there, they gave Lodging continually; but it was never drawn to matter of money: And till now we had never Horse upon us, except it were for a month, or so
In the next place, We humbly desire the Remonstrance of the Nobility, and the House of Commons in Ireland, might be read as Testimonies of my Lord of Straffords Justice.
E. of Strafford.
I desire to know whether questions are to be asked of matters not contained in the Charge, as the Remonstrance is not.
My Lords, The Subverting of the Laws, and Corruption in Government and Justice, is generally laid in the Charge; and he hath answered, that he hath administred Justice with Integrity; And this we produce to shew, That the frontispiece of his Answer, is in that part untrue.
To prove the Truth of the Copy of the Lords Remonstrance now produced, the Lord Digby of Ireland was Sworn; and he on his Oath said, That the Copy was delivered him at his coming over, by the Clerk of the Lords House in Ireland, to be brought over hither by Order of the Lords there.
And the Lord Baltinglasse Deposed, that he knew it to be the Clerks hand; and they were both present at the Voting of it.
The same was read, bearing date February 22.1640. The Protestation and Declaration of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament Assembled; We desire to apply it to disprove part of the Preamble of my Lord of Straffords Answer.
E. of Strafford.
I desire my Lord Digby may be asked whether he gave his Vote to this Protestation;
We produce it not as the Act of any particular man, but of the Lords.
E. of Strafford.
Your Lordships may observe, that this is fallen out since my Impeachment of High Treason here: And that it is followed by Faction and Correspondence, as in time might be made appear, if I could undertake it; and a strong Conspiracy against me.
My Lords, These words are not to be suffered; Charging the House of Commons with Faction, Correspondency, and Conspiracy, We desire Your Lordships Justice in this.
E. of Strafford.
God forbid I should think there was, or could be any thing in that House, or any Member of it, but that which agrees with Truth and Justice, and Equity. I must profess to Your Lordships, I had no Reflection or Intention, either upon the Lords House there, or upon the Honourable House of Commons here, but upon certain Persons that are not Members of the House here, that have Correspondency with them in Ireland, that are not Members of the House there.
We must consult with the House of Commons concerning the prosecution of this Exception to his words; and in the mean time we will reserve it to our selves; and so we shall proceed.
We desire the Remonstrance made by the House of Commons in Ireland, (being deposed unto by Patrick Gough, That about February 25. it was delivered him, sealed up in a box, with other things, before his face; being called on by the House to be brought to the Committee for Irish affairs in England) may be read.
Which Remonstrance was read accordingly.
Your Lordships may observe, That my Lord of Straffords glorious Declaration of his own Merits, was confuted by the whole Parliament; and that the whole sum of the Charge, is confirmed by the Testimony of all Ireland.
To the point of Revenue of Ireland; for the contradicting of my Lord of Straffords Affirmation, That Ireland Supporteth its own Charge;
Sir Edward Warder produced, and Sworn, was interrogated when the last money was sent out of this Kingdom for support of His Majesties Affairs of Ireland:
He answered, The last money sent over for payment of the Army there, was in the Term of Easter, 1621. and it was 10000l. in full of 20000l. for one whole years charge, beginning the first of April, 1619. and ending the last of March following; which was 17 Fac.
Being interrogated, whether since that time the State here hath been actually charged with the Affairs of Ireland.
He answered, Nothing hath been issued out of the Receipt of His Majesties Exchequer for the Maintenance of Ireland since this time, only such moneys as have been lately issued for the Army, and what hath been issued to the Treasurer of the Navy, and the Officers of it, for the maintaining of Ships on the Coast; but otherwise, no money hath been issued as a constant settled thing out of the Receipt of His Majesties Exchequer, for any thing arising since the last of March, 1620.
E. of Strafford.
I desire he may be asked what was since issued for the Navy.
We admit that the Charge of the Navy continued divers years after, yet a few years before my Lord of Straffords Government it was taken off too.
Lord High Steward.
The Manager did so open it, and Sir Edward Warder did in effect set in forth so: Therefore that question was waved.
Sir Robert Pye produced, and Sworn to that point of Revenue; and being interrogated to the same purpose,
Answered, No money hath issued out of the Receipt, but as Sir Edward Warder delivered it; and I know of no other money, but only for the Maritime parts, something hath been paid to the Treasurer of the Navy: And besides the 50000l. of late, I know not any.
The Lord Mountnorris was called upon; and being asked whether the Charge of 7000l. a year for the Navy of Ireland, was not taken off a year before my Lord of Straffords Government:
He answered, I cannot say the sum was 7000l. But two of the Whelps employed there before my Lord of Strafford came to the Government, were defrayed whether wholly, or in part, I cannot tell, but they had good large sums of money, and were paid in the Kingdom.
E. of Strafford.
I desire my Lord Mountnorris may be asked, whether when I came to the Government, the constant Charge did not exceed the constant Revenue; and how much?
It is true, the Irish gave sixscore Thousand pounds towards the Charge; so that the Supply came out of Ireland, though not out of the constant Revenue of Ireland: but it came not out of this Kingdom.
He further answered, the Constant Revenue did not do it, There was a Contribution by Loan from the Country, to supply it; but before my Lord of Faulkland, went over, I heard my Lord of Middlesex tell him, They must look for no more money, England had nourished Ireland long enough, she must now live upon her own Milk.
E. of Strafford.
The reason why money did not go out, was because 120000l. was supplyed by a Contribution; notwithstanding which, when he came to serve the King in that Kingdom, the Crown was indebted very near 100000l. Sterling.
He hath received 300000l. for Subsidies.
E. of Strafford.
It will Appear on Accompts, to be bestowed faithfully and justly, every penny for the King.
To the point of my Lord of Straffords taking of 24000l. of the Kings money, and disposing it for a year and a half, notwithstanding His Majesties Wants, and the Necessities of the Army.
Sir Adam Loftus Vice-Treasurer, produced and Sworn, was interrogated, whether my Lord of Strafford had not 24000l. out of the Kings Revenue? and how long time? and when was it paid in?
He answered, My Lord of Strafford and Sir George Ratcliffe, had never a penny out of the Exchequer, but on such Warrants as I durst not deny them, for their due Entertainment, and other things importing His Majesties Service. But I must confess, that they being Partners in the Customs, some moneys were to be paid for the profits of the Customs which were in arrear; and Sir George Ratcliffe moved me to give discharges for it, and he would give me my Lord Lieutenants Bond, and his own, for paying of it upon demand; which I accepted of, and accordingly did give those discharges.
Whence observe, discharges are money; for so much money should have been paid in, and if it be intercepted, the King wants His money.
Being asked what was the sum; and how long was it kept:
He answered, The sum, as I take it, was 19000l. on one Bond, and 5000l. on another; and as I take it, it was in the year 1638.
Being asked again, how long it was kept?
He answered, It was paid lately; within these three months.
Whence observe, it was since the questioning of him in Parliament. The Parliament proves a good Officer for the King there.
E. of Strafford.
I shall reserve my self to give full satisfaction to this in its proper time, it being part of my Charge; But at present I desire Sir Adam Loftus may be ask'd the question, Whether when I came into that Kingdom, the constant Revenue fell not short of the constant Charge, at least 20000l. a year.
We except against Interlocutory discourses; and having now concluded this part of the Charge, we desire, that if my Lord of Strafford would say any thing in answer to what hath been now said, he might say it presently, else we should be on great disadvantages.
E. of Strafford.
My Lords, I conceive the Proposition to be fair; and it is that which I desire, my memory being weak, and not versed in these kinds of Proceedings: I intended to have made it my humble suit for longer time to Answer to this days Proceedings, but shall readily Answer every particular Article in order as they go along; and shall obey and observe the Order proposed. But as to these things which I did not expect, as the Remonstrances, and other Matters opened, being not in this particular Charge, I humbly crave Your Lordships leave and liberty, to recollect my self, and then I will give them the best Answer I can. For to Answer them suddenly I confess I am not so well fitted, as I trust I shall be.
And I desire leave to say in the presence of Almighty God, That I shall desire to be delivered from the Afflictions that God Almighty hath laid on me for my sins, no other way than as in the Intention of my heart, and Endeavour of my mind, I have been most faithful and true to His Majesty and the Common-wealth; and I well trust and hope, that by the time all these things come to conclusion, and have been fully heard, I shall recover in great measure, the favour and good Opinion of the Honourable House of Commons; in which House, I have spent a great part of my time: And I doubt not but it is known to divers that sit here, what my Carriage and Behaviour hath been there. And I desire no more, (and I am sure it will be granted, they are so just and good) but that they will reserve towards me, an Opinion of Charity, that I give such an Account, as may preserve me to be the same in their Opinion, that I was formerly. I was never yet Impeached in my private Conversation, of untruth, and hope they will think of me charitably, till they have heard the whole business; and I doubt not but I shall take off, in great part, their hard Opinion, and procure to my self, their Compassion and Favour; and that I shall go in peace and quietness to my Grave, leaving all publick Employments whatsoever. And I humbly beseech the House of Commons, to incline a gracious Opinion to me, so far forth, that I am the same man in Opinion, that I was when I was one of them; and I doubt not but this, out of their Nobleness and Goodness, they will afford me.
But for these particulars, I humbly crave, that with Your Lordships good leave, I may have a little time with my self to consider them, because they be new; and for the rest, I shall obey Your Lordships Order, and give them thanks.
No Exception is taken, but to what is affirmed in his own Answer; and the Commons will think it another mans Answer, and not his own, if he be not ready to make good the Truth of it. These things should not be new; for every man should be ready to maintain his own Assertions.
E. of Strafford.
I am (My Lords) in an unknown way, being not versed in these things; if I might have had the Assistance of Council, it would have been a great ease to me: but it is not possible for me to recollect all which the Worthy Gentleman hath said to materially, and with so much weight. Matters of Fact I could answer to, Article by Article; but to answer presently so great and tedious a discourse, so well delivered, and so weighty, I profess I am not able; my Memory being not able to carry it. But if Your Lordships would please, out of Your Nobleness and Goodness, to give me Respite to recollect my self to these things that be Generalities, I should be able to give a good Accompt thereof, protesting seriously, That I think every part of the Preamble to be very Just and True; and I hope, under favour, to make it appear so, when I shall shew those things which have not yet been so fully informed and known, as I trust they may be hereafter.
My Lords, We humbly desire, that since my Lord of Strafford is not ready to give Satisfaction to what hath been disproved in his Answer, we may proceed to that which he is ready to give Answer and Satisfaction to; and that my Lord of Strafford might understand, That if he Answers not now what hath been said concerning the Preamble, he must have no time to Answer it hereafter.
E. of Strafford.
I Appeal to Your Lordships; and I renew my Request, That I may for these, have time to recollect my Thoughts till next day: If it may not be granted, I beseech Your Lordships to bear with many of my Infirmities, being very great, both in Body and Mind; and to consider, That my sad Condition doth some way plead for a little Compassion and Favour, I being in a way I was never in before, and having not the great Parts that others have. Yet rather than I should be thought to Abuse Your Lordships with Untruths, I will do the best I can to maintain my Answer presently; being confident, through the Blessing of Almighty God, that though the particulars thereof are delivered with a great deal of Weakness and Disadvantage, yet Your Lordships shall find them Truths, my own Heart (I protest before God) telling me so; and hope that God will give me Help and Assistance to make it appear so: And other than that I desire not to be; for if I were the man I am represented, I were not worthy to live: I confess, the Honourable House of Commons have proceeded against me with all Reason and Justice that can be; being informed as they were, they could do no less; if they had done less, they had not performed their Trust with that fullness they should; and thereof I find no fault with them. But I beg leave to express a Truth as well as God shall enable me; hoping it will appear, that all I have said is true, as all is true to my knowledge. And I know it is in the Heart of every man that hears me, That I should have time to clear a Truth; no man can deny it: And therefore I humbly pray, I may not be suddenly taken, protesting seriously, I have said nothing but what I knew, or verily believed to be true.
We pray Your Lordships Resolution in this point, before we proceed any further.
Their Lordships thereupon Adjourned to the Upper-House; and about half an hour after, returned.
Lord High Steward.
I am commanded to impart their Lordships Resolution, That since the Commons do not press these things as matters of Crime, but rather upon the matter of Truth, they conceive my Lord of Strafford need not further time for these particulars. And that if his Lordships will make any Answer to these particulars, he is to do it now.
E. of Straffords Speech.
I shall never do other than readily obey whatsoever Your Lordships should please to command me, my heart paying you Obedience; and so in truth shall every thing that proceeds from me. The question (I observe) is matter of Truth, or not Truth, in the Preamble (as they call it) of this my Answer; and to that, with all the Humility and Modesty in the World, I will apply my self, as not conceiving it any way becoming me to speak any thing of Sharpness in any kind, but with all Humility and Reverence to bear all these Afflictions, with acknowledgment unto Almighty God, and to lay them so to my heart, that they may provide for me in another World, where we are to expect the Consummation of all Blessedness and Happiness. And therefore to lay aside all these Aggravations by words, wherewith I have been set forth to Your Lordships (only with this) that I trust I shall make my self appear a person otherwise in my Dispositions and Actions, than I have been rendred; and shortly and briefly, I shall fall upon the very points, as near as I can, that were mentioned by that Noble Gentleman; and if I should forget any, I desire to be remembered of them, that I may give the best Answer I can on a sudden; with this Protestation, That if I had had time, I should have given a far clearer Answer, than on the sudden I shall be able to do.
I will take them as they lye in Order: And the first thing in this Answer is, That in Ireland, by means, many good laws were made for increase of the Kings Revenue, and for good of the Church and Common-wealth; and this I humbly conceive, was not denied directly, only it was inferr'd, That Laws were of no use where will was put above Law.
That these laws were made, the Acts of Parliament that are extant, and visible things, do make appear; For (though I might express it darkly, by reason I understood not matters of Law) the truth of it is, before such time as I came there, the Statutes of Wills and Uses, and Fraudulent Conveyances, were not of force in Ireland; by which there was a very great mischief that fell many ways, both on the King, and specially on the English Planters: for by want of these Statutes, no man knew when he had a good title; and old Entayles would be set on foot, and by that means the later Purchaser avoided; by which means there was a great loss and prejudice to the King in his Wards; which by these Laws are settled, and the Laws of Ireland brought much nearer the Laws of England than before. And in this point I conceive I am not absolutely gainsayed, but only conditionally, that is, that notwithstanding this, I have set up another Government, Arbitrary, and Tyrannical. To which, I shall not now trouble Your Lordships with an Answer, that being in the particulars of my Charge. And thus I think the first to be fairly and clearly Answered.
Then, that there were more Parliaments in the time of my Government, than in 50 years before. There were two in my time; and if I might call Witnesses, it would appear, that there were not so many within that time before; but being not, material to my Defence or Condemnation, I will not trouble Your Lordships with proof, unless you will require it; I having them here, that I think can make it good. And whereas in my answer I deny that I ever had hand in any Project or Monopoly; and that I did prevent divers, that otherwise would have passed: I said that, under favour, with all duty and confidence; I must still affirm it, That I never had hand or share in any manner of Monopoly or Project whatsoever, unless the Tobacco-business were a Monopoly, which under favour, I shall clear not to be; but that being part of my charge, I think it impertinent now to give answer unto it; but will satisfie Your Lordships in that behalf, in proper time and place: But more than that of Tobacco, I say absolutely and directly, I never had my hand or share in any Monopoly or Project; may, I did, as much as I could, Oppose all of them, particularly the Monopoly of Iron-Pots; for which, I reserve my self no Answer as part of my Charge: And a new Book of Rates, whereby it was proposed, That the Rates of the Kings Customs might be increased. And this I did Oppose and Disavow, albeit I was a sharer in the Farm, and consequently should have had the Benefit and Advantage of it for my proportion; and by the Kings gracious Goodness (when His Majesty came to be more fully and clearly informed of it) it was stopped, and never went on: And this I will make appear in that point of the Articles that concern the Customs.
The Fourth is, That I have not had any greater Power, or larger commission, than my Predecessors in that Government have had; which I conceive, under favour, is not controverted, but granted, and therefore stands good to me; or if it were controverted, I am able to make it appear, that I have brought in nothing more than was formerly accustomed in the point of the Deputies commission.
The next thing in my Answer is, That the Revenue of Ireland was never able to Support it self before my coming thither; and that I say still, with all Humility and Duty, is most true: and I trust to make it apparently true presently, If Your Lordships will give me leave to call for, and examine my Witnesses. It being the Proofs Your Lordships will took to, and not to what was only alledged by that Worthy Gentleman: And further than Your Lordships shall find proved, I desire not to be believed.
The proof offered against me, is by Sir Edward Warder, and Sir Robert Pye, who testified, That from the year 1621. nothing went out of the Kings Exchequer to supply the Irish Affairs, saving only for the Maritime occasions. And this I believe to be true; for they be Gentlemen of Credit that Speak it: and I will believe them on their Words, much more on their Oaths.
But (under favour) there was for eight years together before my coming, a Contribution of 20000l. a year paid by the Country; which was no part of the Kings Revenue, nor as I conceive, ever came into Accompt, nor was paid into the Exchequer, as will appear on the fifteenth Article; but was a Gift of the Country, and applied to the kings occasions: and that determined, the Revenue sell short 20000l. of the Charge.
Besides, when I came into Ireland, the Crown was extreamly indebted, above (as I think (not to stand on particular sums and pence) 100000l. Sterling. And by the Gentlemans own saying, when I came out of Ireland, I left 100000l. in the Kings Coffers: And if any ask where the Accompt for the Subsidies is, There is 100000 l. Debt paid, 100000 l. left in the Kings Coffers; (For it appears by Sir Adam Loftus, that there was 100000 l. in the Exchequer when I came from thence) There was 15000 l. employed for buying Land, that yields the King 2000 l. a year: And so much of my Lord of Ormond, as yields 2500l. a year: So that the Accompts will shew the bestowing of the Subsidies, with as much Advantage as might be, for the Kings Service. That the Revenue was short, I could make appear clearly. The occasion that no money came out of the Exchequer, was accidental, by a Contribution of the Country, no Revenue of the Kings. And if that had not been supplied, there had been no possibility of defraying the Ordinary Charges of the Crown out of the Revenue; and that is the point wherein I differ from the Gentleman, his meaning being, That the ordinary Revenue of the Kingdom could not bear the ordinary Charge of the Kingdom. And I desire that Sir Adam Loftus and Sir Robert Dillon, may be examined upon such questions as shall be propounded in this point.
Lord High Steward.
Your Lordship may examine them, but not upon Oath.
E. of Strafford.
I will not displease, but perfectly obey in every thing.
It will not be denied, but the Revenue is increased by such means as my Lord of Strafford hath increased it by; yet it was not the natural Revenue, but the additional part, that came in by the Bounty of the Country, that supported the Charge many years before my Lord of Strafford came: So that if it be said Ireland supported not it self before he came thither, in the general sense it is untrue; if it be said in a special sense, that the Kings proper Revenue did not support it, that his Lordship says is true.
E. of Strafford.
Whence I infer, that it was not much material to insist on this, for I meant it so; and it is plain and clear, that the Kings Revenue there was not able to bear the Charge of that Kingdom, by very near 23000 l. or 24000 l. a year: And it is now able to bear its own Charges, and yet there is an increase of Charge by 600 Horse; by which, the Army is stronger than it was.
And whereas it is said, I was short in the Shipping, I affirm, that under favour, I was not. It is true, that in the time of the late Justices, my Lord of Corke, and my Lord Loftus, the last years Charge of the Shipping was paid forth of Ireland: But it is a true, that when the Kingdom underwent the Charge, they lessened the Charge of the Kings Army, by striking 500 off from the Army; and transferred the Charge of their pay, to the easing of the Kings Revenue on the Navy. But that Charge being now increased again, and brought to the former certainty, I conceive I might truly say, There was in my time an ease to the Crown of England, (all things considered) which formerly it had not: It being not with the prejudice of the Kings Service elsewhere, or lessening the standing Army, which in all times hath been the strongest support of the Kings Justice; and Ministers there; and which it deeply concerns the Crown of England; to keep in such a Condition, that they may be responsible to the King for the Services he shall Command: So that though the Shipping Charge was paid the last year, yet so paid, that the Kings Army was weakened 500 Foot; whereas now it is paid, and the Kings Army raised to a certainty again; and a Change is made to the better; for instead of 500 Foot, there is 600 Horse. And that I say, my Lord of Cork remembers very well, there being Letters of his, That Sir Pierce Crosby's Regiment should be put off, and the money for maintenance thereof, should go to defray the Charge of the Kings Ships, for guard of the Coast
And yet the Charge is much more now than it was; for the Charge was then only two Whelps, as my Lord Mountnorris said: And now there be three Ships, The Swallow, a Ship of the Third Rank, and two lesser Vessels; so that I conceive my Answer, in my sense, was true.
For the matter of having money out of the Exchequer, I conceive my Answer to contain no matter of Untruth; for I had out of the Exchequer only 15000l. and for that the King will be answered 2000l. a year good Fee-farm Rent in lieu of it; which he thought was no ill bargain. It is true, (I Say) the money spoken of by Sir Adam Loftus, was borrowed on my own, and Sir George Ratcliffe's Bond, to be paid upon Sight. At that time (I praise God) I had Credit for 20000l. and at this time (I thank God for that too) I have not Credit for 20d. Gods Will be done, I obey it. But this money is honestly and justly paid; Where is the Crime then ? might not I borrow of a Gentleman that would trust me with money, but it must be an Offence? It is true, it was of the Kings money; but the King had no use for it at that time. Had not I made use of it, it must otherwise have lain in the Exchequer, and yielded no profit; and besides, I borrowed it of one that was Accomptable for it.
But since I am put to it, I will shew that which will clear it from being a Crime indeed; which according to the Duty I owe unto His Majesty, my Master, his Command hitherto have I kept private to my self: And that is the Kings Warrant, being all of His own Hand writing.
Sir Adam Loftus being then Vice-Treasurer, and now demanded the question, Whether that Warrant was produced to him at the borrowing of the Money, confessed, that my Lord of Strafford never told him of the Warrant.
Kings Warrant read.
The Warrant was read, containing a License to make use of 40000l. of His Majesties Treasure, now in the hands of His Majesties Vice-Treasurer, for three Years; Provided, that for Security, there be always left in the hands of the Comptrollers, a Stock of Tobacco, amounting to 40000l. at the least; with a direction to conceal this particular favour to him, that it might not be brought into precedent.
E. of Strafford.
There was accordingly so much Tobacco left. But, by what Law I know not, The Magazines are seized on by Order from the Commons House of Parliament, my Goods possessed, and given over to others, to sell at their own prices; my people imprisoned, as if they had been Traytors Goods, and as it an Inquisition had been found upon me as a Traytor. And this is my Misfortune, to be very hardly dealt withall by the Commons House there, to say no more.
And whereas by the Kings Goodness I had liberty to take 40000l. I took but 24000l. And where I had liberty to take it for three years, (which expires not till Michaelmas next) I paid it in long before the time. And by this one particular I hope it will appear to Your Lordships, and the Gentleman of the House of Commons, how Noble it will be to believe Charitably of me, till they hear all can be said; for I trust, in the whole course of this Tryal, to appear an honest man.
And whereas I said I never had but 15000l. out of the Exchequer, and yet had 24000l. borrowed as aforesaid. The King Commanded me I should not take notice of His gracious Favour; and therefore I conceive, that in Duty to my Master I ought not to have taken notice of it, otherwise my Answer should have clearly and plainly exprest it: I never having Disobeyed His Majesty, nor, by the Grace of God, never will.
For the 7000l. for the Guard of the Irish Coast, that was mentioned already; and I shall not need to Answer it farther.
To the point of restoring the Possessions of the Church in a great measure; I say, there was not only a Restitution, but a Preservation by an Act of Parliament, for preserving the Possessions of the Church from being mis-used by the present Incumbent, to the prejudice of the Successors; which Act I wish were in England: But that I conceive not to be Controverted, but granted me.
But it is said, The Possessions of the Church were restored in an Illegal way, to please my Lord of Canterbury: To which I Answer, The Gentleman indeed spake it, but there is no proof of it, neither hath he offered any proof; and till it be proved, I conceive it not fit to trouble Your Lordships with Answering it: I have done nothing in Church or Common-Wealth, but Justly and Uprightly.
Albeit I conceive it a hard case, that having the Honour to be the Kings Deputy sitting in Council, where there be Twenty who Voted as well as my self, That I should be noted to Answer for them all, tho'I did constantly submit my self to the major part.
And as to my Lord of Canterbury, I beseech Your Lordships to think, That what I have done for the Church of Ireland, was out of a faithful Conscience to God Almighty, out of a desire to increase the Religion I Profess, and which I will witness with my Blood, by the Blessing of Almighty God, if there should be occasion. And when I have done it with respect to that Piety of His Gracious Majesty, which I would faithfully pay Him. I desire it may not be put upon me, as done in any respect only to my Lord of Canterbury, where no such thing is proved: No, I did it out of Conscience, my Duty to God, to the King, and to the People, that they might be instructed in the way to Eternal Life. And I beseech Your Lordships to believe I have a Heart a little greater than to do any such thing to please any man living, with Modesty be it spoken.
For the Building of Churches, I confess, I built not any; and in my Answer I said no more, but that Churches were built; which the Worthy Gentleman acknowledged in some part. I confess they were not Built by me, or at my particular Charge; nor do I say otherwise in my Answer: And it had been a vain thing to have said it, though I had done it my self.
But it is said, the Answer is not right, in saying there be divers Worthy Church-men preferred; and three are instanced in, Bishop Atherton, the Bishop of D. and one Gwyn: To this I beseech Your Lordships, that I may be bold to let the Gentlemen know, That Bishopricks are not in the gift of the Deputy, but of the King; and that he is not Responsible for what the King doth.
But not desiring to deny any thing that is true, I confess, I think Bishop Atherton was unknown to His Majesty; and that I my self recommended him to the Bishoprick; and at that time I thought the Bishop a Person fit for that Charge: But suppose he had a secret fault of his own, (God knows it was unknown to me) may not a man be deceived in his Judgment of a man, but this shall be turned against him? It is a very easie thing for a man to cover his faults from the eye of the World; I thought him not a vicious man, he proved so, and he had his merit, he suffered for it: And unless I had the Inspection of Almighty God, I suppose, this cannot be laid to my Charge; if any private End or Respect should appear in the doing of it, I desire no more of Your Lordships Favour; and I profess, I had rather be out of the World, than not have the Favour of Your Lordships, and the Honourable House of Commons; of whom I desire, that they would hear me with that Equity that they hear every thing.
For the Bishop of D. all that is mentioned against him is, That he is Impeached of High Treason by the Commons House of Parliament in Ireland: And how the Bishop will acquit himself I know not; but for that the Bishop must Answer for himself, not I.
This Bishop hath lived in my House a long time, as my Chaplain; and I humbly recommended him to that Bishoprick, taking him (and I hope he will so approve himself) to be a very Learned man, and that I think no body will deny: certainly he hath the Elements to make him a very Worthy Church-man as most I know.
For that Gwyn, I profess I never heard of him before, nor do I know him; But recollecting my thoughts, I think he was recommended to me by my Lord of D. for in matters of the Church I did use that Gentleman; and if I were to begin the World again, I would use him still, holding him a very honest Worthy man: And I think there was some Rectory or Impropriation that the Earl of Corke had possession of, which was restored to the Church; and it was of so small and trivial a value, that they knew not who to get to serve the Cure; and on that occasion this man was recommended to it: And I think, that if it shall come to be examined, Thirty pounds a year will go far in his preferment. And if such a thing should happen, and miscarry in his hands, it is no such hainous Crime as is objected.
But I desire leave to shew what I have done in this kind instead of this Mr. Gwyn; and Your Lordships may see a List of those I have preferred to the Church of Ireland, and perhaps they may be known to some of Your Lordships, and to many Gentlemen of the House of Commons.And first I say, I preferred Mr. Gray, and have done for him according to the means I had by the Favour and Goodness of the king; perhaps he hath that which is worth 3, or 4, or 500l. a year by my Gift. And this Mr. Gray (if I be not mistaken) was sometimes Chaplain to a Noble Person that sits on the Earls Bench; and if it were material further to enquire of him, I might give satisfaction what he is. I likewise brought into that Kingdom Mr. Tilson, now Bishop of Elphin, and sometimes Fellow of University Colledge of Oxford, a most Worthy, Honest, Religious Person he is; and those that know him, I am sure will give him that Testimony. I likewise preferred Dr. Margetson, Dean of Christs Church; he was of Cambridge, and a Worthy man. Mr. Forward, Dean of Drummore, an Oxford man; who if he were known, would appear worthy of that Preferment Mr. Dean Cressy an Oxford man. Mr. Roade, Dean of Derry, a Cambridge man, of Sydney Colledge. Dr. Wentworth, Dean of Armagh, of Oxford. Dr. Price, Dean of Conaught, of Christs Church in Oxford. Mr. Thorpe, a Cambridge man. I preferred likewise one Mr. Parry, whom I found in Ireland; but all the rest I brought, and sent for out of England: Nay, I sent for them, and did those things for them before they did ask the Question, or knew of it; That being a means, under Gods Blessing, to conform that Kingdom to the Church of England. And these, and far greater numbers than these, to my best Judgment and Understanding, I made use of as Instruments to Gods Glory, His true Service, and the reducing of the people to the Profession of the same Religion that's here in England; and for no other end. But concerning my Carriage of the Trust reposed in me by the King, touching these Ecclesiastical Preferments, I desire no other Testimony or Witness for me, but the Lord Primate of Ireland, who is sick, and cannot come hither: To whom I will Appeal, whether I have not in my preferring to the Church Preferments, carried my self with all clearness and care I could possibly.
To the point of increasing of Protestants; if Your Lordships please to hear any thing in that kind, I shall call my Lord Dillon, and Sir Adam Loftus, who if they should be asked, Whether there be more Protestants in Dublin now than when I first came thither? I doubt not but they would give an account of a greater number.
We Charge him not upon this point; so it was set aside.
E. of Strafford.
My preferring of none but Protestant Officers, if I mistook not, the Noble Gentleman did acknowledge.
Billetting of Soldiers in Dublin.
To the disposing of the Army without Orievance to the Subject; I leave that, (which was spoken with so much Advantage and Ability, above any thing that from such a poor man as my self, could be expected) and proceed to that which was proved; observing, That one only Testimony was produced, (viz.) Alderman I. who said, they have a special Charter at Dublin to exempt them from Billetting of Soldiers. But whether it be so or no, it hath ever been denied by the Deputies: And by his own Confession, the Foot Companies of my Lord Faulkland were Billetted in Dublin. And whereas it was said they had Lodgings, not Money, That was altered upon a Composition with the soldiers, who can expect only Lodging; but if for the Ease of the Town they will allow the Soldier Money, and leave him to provide for himself, it is all one.
For the Horse-Troops, My own is, and ever since I was there, hath been Billetted in Dublin. And it is in the power of the Deputy to Garrison part of the King's Army where he pleases, and without controversie, hath been so at all times.
And I desire that my Lord Ranelagh may be asked, Whether the Soldiers of the Company he hath, be not Billetted in Athlone, at least some part of it. It is true, my Lord of Faulkland's Troop was not Billetted in Dublin; but they were in the Counties round about, which was more chargeable.
And besides, here is produced but one single Witness; and I hope my own Answer may stand equal, and in as much Credit, as a single Testimony, that on the matter, confesses the thing in a great part.
Increase of Shipping.
For the increase of Shipping, the Gentleman question'd it not; and really there is now 100 Tun for one, that was there before my coming. And if I had time to send into Ireland for the Certificates of the Officer of the Ports, (the Surveyor, I think) who views the Ports once a year, it should appear to Your Lordships, that I have not abused you, nor the Honourable Gentlemen that hear me. And whether that be an Argument that the Trade and Wealth of the Kingdom is improved, (I appeal to all that hear me) when the Shipping doth so much increase: And the Customs, which were not above 13000l. a year, are come to 40000l. and that on the same Book of Rates.
Jurors Sentence in the Star-Chamber
Concerning the Sentencing of Jurors, and the questioning of them in the Star-Chamber. It is true, divers of their Sentences were past: And to those Sentences I refer my self, till something be proved against the Truth and Justice of them. And I think it will stand with your Lordships Goodness, to judge the best of the Court of Castle-Chamber, wherein the Deputy hath but one Voice, They being the King's Ministers, and standing upon their Oaths to do their Duties: But I think in my Conscience, there was the greatest reason in the World to sentence those persons. And when it comes to be examined, it will prove so. And unless a strict hand be in that kind held upon the Natives, the Priests shall carry them against all things that can be. For either they do not, or will not, understand their Evidence: so that it begets one of the most crying sins in Ireland. And if some Examples have been made, they are upon strict grounds and reasons of State. For if Jurors going directly and manifestly contrary to their Evidence, be not punished, that high and ancient Trial by Jury, will fall. And is it not ordinary in England to have Juries Sentenced for not finding according to the Evidence? But if any one hath not been Just, upon instancing of the particulars, I will Answer for his Vote as well as I can: For it must stand or fall according to the Merit of the Cause.
But one thing which I observe the Gentleman to say, is very Considerable; for he tells what was spent there this last year. This I have little to Answer for: For when I came out of Ireland, there was 100000l. in the Exchequer; and how it hath been issued, I know not, but it hath not been done by my Warrant or Direction; yet I doubt not but it will appear, when examined, that it hath been faithfully and justly disposed. But I am not to Answer for it, only I can say, That when I came out of that Kingdom, the Kingdom was so far from being 60000l in Debt, (as some such thing was spoken) that there was 100000l in the kings Coffers.
And for the 50000l. received by me in England, Mr. Vice-Treasurer never in Ireland, is Accomptable for it, though Mr. Vice-Treasurer never touched the money, and my self as little. And Mr. Vice-Treasurer discharges himself of it by Warrants issued from me, and charged it upon other Accomptants; who when they come to Account, I doubt not but a good Account will be given. Though (under favour of the Gentleman) of the 50000 l. 14000l. is yet unpaid, only there is an Assignment. But it lies on him and his Credit for discharge of the Kings Service: And it must lye. on him, or on some other person, if himself have nothing left him.
And whereas it is said, the money I had as borrowed, was taken out when the Kings Army was in want, I desire Your Lordships to observe, It was two years ago when I had this money, and then there was 100000 l. in Surplusage. And though the King gave me Liberty, of His Goodness, to use it three years, it was not wanting to the Army when it stood in need of it.
The next thing urged, was my Cozenage in the Custom-house; and that I had there Cozened the King notably, 5 or 6000l. a year deep.
To Answer this, I reserve my self till I come to the particular Article; but desire leave with all Modesty to say, That it shall appear I have not Cozened, nor deceitfully abused His Majesty for a Farthing Token, neither in that, nor in any thing else. And that there is no other Allowance, nor Defalcation by the Grant wherein I am Interested for 15600 l. a year, and 8000 l. Fine than was allowed to the former Farmers, that had it at the Rent of 13000 l. a year. And that I have made the King a much more profitable bargain than he had, or could have without it.
The next was for the Revenues of the Church, That they were got without Rules of Justice; And were an Offering of Rapine. And that I had an Eye to my own Preferment, in the Person of my Lord of Canterbury: To that I have already Answered.
And thus having run over all the Preamble, I humbly beg leave to make some Observations upon the Testimonies produced, (viz.) That the Examinations of Sir John Clotworthy, and my Lord Ranelagh, I conceive, do not concern me. Mr. Barnewells was for things spoken when I was out of the Kingdom; and were concerning Sir George Ratcliffe, and not me.
For the Remonstrances shewed, where in they disclaim the Preamble to the Act for four Subsidies, I beseech Your Lordships to consider, how unlikely it is that I should do any thing in that kind, fraudulently or surreptitiously: For by the Custom of that Kingdom, the Laws must be transmitted hither under the Hand of the Deputy and Council, and so pass the Seal, and be returned to Ireland; when that Law was transmitted, I was here in England, as I take it: And absolutely and directly, I protest I never knew any thing in the World of that Preamble, never saw it, nor heard of it, I think, till I saw it in the Copy of the Remonstrance: I never heard it was excepted against, it having pass'd the Vote, and three times reading in both Houses: And I would have consented to have it struck out, as in truth I will now, being far from any thing of vanity, and not thinking my self better or worse by being put in or out: And if it were charged upon me as a Crime, or were material for me to prove it, I think I could by Witness in Town prove, That it was the general Vote of the Commons House, and passed with as much Applause and Chearfulness, as any thing. And, that if my Lord Dillon, and Sir Adam Loftus, and some other of the Irish Commissioners, were examined upon Oath, I believe they would swear they never heard any Exceptions against it, till the time I was Impeached with High Treason.
For the Particular concerning Sir Pierce Crosby, it concerned not me; but the reason of his being put from the Board was this: All Laws must first be transmitted from the Deputy and Council; the Bill against which he Voted was transmitted, Sir Pierce Crosby was there, and set his hand to the transmission; and because he did not except against it then, being a Member of the Board, but did except against it afterwards, it was thought fit he should be Sequestred (as I remember) till His Majesties Pleasure should be known; but Committed he was not: And it was done by the Vote of the whole Board, but no way to infringe the Liberty of the House; and so in Obedience to Your Lordships, as near as I could, with a great deal of Weakness and Infirmity, I have said as much as I can for the present recollect, towards the making good the Truth of my Preamble.
And I conclude with this humble suit, there being some Exception took at some Words that fell from me, Many mens Tongues and Mouths may offend, where their Hearts do not: And that in Truth I may say, my Heart did not offend against that Reverence and Duty I shall always pay, on all occasions, to the Honourable House of Commons, and every Member of it; but to others, that are neither Members of this House, nor of the House in Ireland, I meant what I said: And I do beseech the Gentlemen of the House of Commons to accept my Acknowledgment of this truth: and that my Words may not be any ways raised against me as a Cause of their thinking worse of me; or that I should be peccant or offending, in having other thoughts of the Members and Proceedings of the House, than with all Submission, and all belief of the Equity of it.
To which Defence, one of the Managers appointed for this days Service, briefly replyed, in substance as followeth.
What I have said in Answer of the Preamble, was not by way of Charge, but only for disproof of that whereby my Lord of Strafford would take away or nullifie the Charge. So that if the Charge remains in force, the Services performed by him, are not effectual to mitigate it.
That what we have proposed still stands unavoided, as we conceive, notwithstanding any thing my Lord of Strafford hath said.
That as concerning Sir Pierce Crosby his agreeing to the Transmission, if that be true: That there is a preparative part of the Law, and there Sir Pierce Crosby might speak as a Counsellor; But there is a Legislative part of the Law, and that is done in Parliament; and these being distinct, is Sir Pierce Crosby did do any thing at Council-Table, it deprived him not of his Liberty to speak in Parliament. But we are informed he gave his denial to consent to the Transmission.
And is my Lord of Strafford were not guilty in his own Person of breach of Priviledge; Yet if under his Government, Priviledge of Parliament be broken, it is no matter of Merit to say, he procured Parliaments.
It is no Answer to say things are not proved, when any thing we urged, is contained under an Article; for then he refers the proof when he comes to the Article; as many things concerning the Lands of the Clergy, will be made good in the proofs of the proper Article.
That he hath preferred many Divines; that is no part of his Merit, nor takes away his fault, though it be true.
That for the Value of his Living, we never heard of it till on this occasion; but be it small or great, it is nothing to justifie my Lord of Strafford, being offered to this purpose; That tho' his his Lordship were careful of the Lands of the Ministers, He was not careful of the Ministers themselves, in suffering a Groom to execute that high Function; Ministers being not to be chosen according to the Quality of the Living, but according to the Quality of the Function.
That for the matter of Monopolies, if his Lordship do stop any, he may stop them for finisher Reasons; and however, there is no Compensation, doing his Duty in one thing, not satisfying for Neglect in another.
And then concluded, That what we have not now replied unto, shall be made good in the Charge; and ought not in their Lordships Opinion, make my Lord of Strafford more plausible; for the charge shall be made good against him in the truth of the fact, and the Aggravation of it.
Hereupon the Court was Adjourned, and the Committee directed to proceed to the Proofs conducing to the particular Charge, the next Morning.