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House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 26 April 1604

Pages 185-187

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 1, 1547-1629. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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In this section

Jovis[*], 26o Aprilis, 1604

D. of Somerset's Estate.

L. 1. B. FOR the Establishment of certain Manors, Lands, and Tenements, belonging to the late Duke of Somerset.

Rodney's Estate.

L. 2. B. For the quiet Establishing and Settling of the Lands and Possessions, late of Sir Geo. Rodney, Knight, deceased: - Committed to Sir Francis Hastings, Mr. Hext, Sir Rob. Phelips, Mr. D. James, Mr. Hoskins, Mr. Serjeant Snigge, Mr. Kyrton, Mr. Alexander Tutt: - To meet To-rnorrow in the Middle Temple Hall.

Privilege- Relief of Plaintiffs.

Committees added, upon Mr. Hackwill's, Motion, in the Bill for the Relief of Plaintiffs, where the Defendants, arrested upon Execution, are set at Liberty by Parliament, &c. Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Hadds, Mr. Wynch, Mr. Mutton, Mr. Wentworth, Mr. Irby, Mr. Oxborough, Mr. Ravenscroft, Mr. Diggs, Mr. Chock, Mr. Jones: - To meet with the rest this Afternoon, in Lincoln's Inn Hall.

Marriages.

L. 2. B. To restrain all Persons from Marriage; until their former Wives or former Husbands be dead. - Committed to Sir Chro. Perkins, Sir Rob. Wroth, Mr. Johnson, Sir John Townsend, Sir Edw. Hobby, Sir Geo. Moore, Mr. Lawrence Hyde, Mr. Fra. Moore, Mr. Yelverton, Mr. Hadds, Sir Rob. Nappier, Mr. Wyseman, Mr. D. James, Sir Dan. Dunn, Mr. Nath. Bacon: - To meet Tomorrow, in the Middle Temple Hall.

Recusants, &c.

L. 2. B. For Disabling of Recusants, Persons attainted of Perjury, &c.-

Committed to Sir Geo. Carewe, Sir Geo. Moore, Mr. Hedley, Mr. Eure, Sir Rob. Wroth, Sir Edw. Tyrrell, Mr. Bromley, Sir Maurice Berkley, Sir John Rodney, Sir Thomas Freak, Sir Rob. Nappier, Mr. Crewe, Sir Herbert Crofts, Sir Rob. Needham, Sir Wm. Selby, Mr. Hoskins, Mr. Yelverton, Sir Henry Beamount, Mr. Antrobus: - To meet on Monday, in the Middle Temple Hall.

Assert Lands.

Counsel in the Bill touching Assert Lands, upon Motion, to be heard on Monday next, at Eight a Clock in the Morning.

Purveyors, &c.

Petition Purveyors, L. 2.

The Petition, to be presented to his Majesty, touching the Abuses of Purveyors, secondly read.

Motion made, touching the Abuse of taking gost-horses, Removes in the Marches of Wales, and other things to be added; for which a present Meeting to be had in the Committee Chamber, and every Grievance to be exactly and particularly set down.

To be added to the Committee, Sir Edmund Ludlowe, Mr. James, Sir Rob. Wingfield.

Abuses by Purveyors at Bristol.

Mr. James, of Bristowe, informeth the House of the Proceedings of a Purveyor at Bristowe, of the Opposition made by the Mayor, and of a Letter directed to the Mayor from the Officers of the Green-cloth, upon the Purveyor's Complaint; the Copy of which Letter he produced, and was read in the House as followeth :

AFTER our hearty Commendations, &c; Forasmuch as by yourself, and certain other Merchants of Bristoll, an Indictment hath been framed against John Dowles Esquire, his Majesty's Customer of that Port, for receiving Composition upon Grocery Wares, by virtue of his Majesty's Commission, and other sufficient Warrant on that Behalf (as it is usual for all other his Highness' Houshold Provisions) in great Contempt of his Majesty's most Royal Prerogative, contrary to your wonted Acknowlegement to our late sovereign Lady Queen Elizabeth, of famous Memory; although at this time we have spared to send our Warrant for you, as we have done for the rest, because of your necessary Residence in that City (considering the present Sickness and Mortality, wherewith it is now sore visited, as we are informed) nevertheless you must hereafter expect to hear from us, to answer your own Contempt therein, which we hold to be greatest of all; for that you, being Mayor, and principal Magistrate of the said City, would once give Consent, or suffer such audacious Proceedings in your Court; the which you ought rather to have suppressed, and severely punished, than any way to have maintained; as by the Sequel you shall hereafter perceive, if in the mean time you do not cause good Satisfaction to be made to the said Mr. Dowles, with Acknowlegement of that unadvised Error; which else must be made a Precedent for all future Offenders, the like being never attempted by any heretofore. And so leaving the Matter to your own Consideration, we bid you farewel. The Court at Whythall, the 20th of February, 1603.

Your loving Friends,

William Knowles,

E. Wotton,

Rich. Browne,

Barth. Fowke,

Ro. Vernon.

" To our loving Friend

John Whytsone Esquire,

Mayor of the City of Bristoll."

Privilege-Contempt to a Member.

Among other Abuses, he complained of some contemptuous Words used by Sir Rich. Browne, after he had shewed this Letter at the Committee ; viz, " One James, of Bristowe, shewed the Letter." - It were good he were sent for, after the End of the Parliament. -

And, for Proof of this his Information, he was appointed to bring his Witnesses Tomorrow Morning into the House [a].

Homage.

L. 2. B. For the due Receiving of Homage and Fealty by the Great Chamberlain of England, for and on the Behalf of the King's Majesty [b]: - Committed to Sir Geo. Moore, Sir Rob. Wroth, Sir Wm. Strowd, Mr. Serjeant

Tanfield, Sir Francis Bacon, Sir Thomas Beamount, Mr. Serjeant Hobart, Mr Attorney of the Wards, Sir John Hollis, Sir Robert Wingfield, Sir John Heigham, Sir Jerome Horsey, Mr. Fanshawe, Mr. Wyseman, Sir John Harpur, Mr. Edward Francis, Mr. Michael Hicks, Mr. Yelverton, Sir Arthure Atye, Sir Henry Nevill, Mr. Francis Moore, Sir Hugh Beeston, Sir John Thynne, Mr. Hare, Sir Maurice Berkley, Sir Thomas Denton : - To meet on Thursday, in the Exchequer Chamber.

Guns, &c.

B. and Committees Names, touching shooting in Guns, &c, delivered to Sir Rob. Phelips.

Union with Scotland.

Moved by Sir Edward Hobby, to bethink themselves of the Preparation for the Conference.

Sir Edward Sandys entereth into long Speech, addeth other Objections, and answereth them, &c.

His Division : - Three Things to be considered :

1. What is out of Doubt.

2. What the Points.

3. How decided.

His Majesty and we have the same Desire : To have his Honour advanced, our Rights preserved, not prejudiced.

We are to look to the Conditions in the Alteration, and what we find Right to persist in it.

Sovereignty in his Majesty alone, as King : Sovereignty of making Laws for Government, in the King and Commons.

Examine the Objections.

By, 1. Precedents of former Times : 2. Concurrent Examples of this Time.

Uniting of Three Sorts :

By Marriage, most honourable :

By Election, most frequent in elective States :

By Conquest.

Never any uniting in a third Name, in the Two first Sorts.

Precedent. - Never any Precedent of this Proposition.

No Governor of the Low Countries could ever attain the contracted Name of Belgia.

One King of Denmark, Norway, Sweden; but the Kingdoms would never consent, that these should be united in One Name.

It was not lawful for him to set any Order, to give any Office, to bestow any Benefice in another Kingdom.

If he removed from one Kingdom to another, his Officers, upon his setting Foot in another Kingdom, lost their Authority.

The King of Spayne hath many Kingdoms, but no Union in Name or Laws.

Duke of Parma and Placentia: - The Two Countries are so jealous, as when the Duke is in Parma, he writeth himself Duke of Parma and Placentia; when in Placentia, Duke of Placentia and Parma.

The Duke of Hetruria superinduced a new Name, but it was a Conquest; yet in his Suit to the Pope, that he might assume the Name of King of Hetruria, thePope answered, If he should give him the Name of King, he gave him also the Kingdom ; which he could not do, a great Inheritance, belonging to his See, being within that Country : And therefore pleasantly dismissed him with this, That he should be King in Hetruria, but not of Hetruria.

From a greater Part to assume a Denomination of the Whole, an usual Thing; but to assume a new Name for the Whole in Possession, no Precedent.

2. If no Precedent, then to be examined by Reason, the Ground of our Law, and of the Law of Nations, by which this Question is to be judged.

A Title to a Kingdom, by them who have Interest, cannot be given, without Giving of the Kingdom.

By this Name the Kingdom of England dissolved.

The Name of Brittaine doth result upon England and Scotland, and therefore cannot be without an Extinction.

Not like the Case of Audley and Suffolk, Buckhurst and Dorsett.

We can give no Laws to Brittaine because we are but Parcel: Scotland cannot, because it is another Part: -

Together we cannot, because several Corporations.

By this our Parliament dissolved.

This Title confirmed by Act of Parliament to King H. VIII. and his Successors, for ever.

We have recognized the King this Parliament, to be King of England, &c. -

Impossible to alter it the same Parliament.

But the King will only style himself so to foreign Nations. -

If he be not King of Brittaine at home, he is not King of Brittaine in reference to foreign States.

England and Scotland, Words of Nugation: Viz. doth not serve for the Division of them from Brittaine. -

A Kingdom, a Thing indivisible, therefore the Viz. repugnant.

But we may help all by a Proviso. -

Ridiculous, that we should do a Thing, and say, we did not intend it.

Who shall interpret our Acts ? - The King of Great Brittaine, shall interpret, &c. and Grants, &c. for the King, largely taken, and not strictly, &c.

We do not sit here upon Hopes of personal Goodness, but to make real Provision.

Real Provision.

If Princes had as much Wisdom and Goodness as God, we should need no Tie.

But the Tie is reciprocal.

Exempled by David, who made a Covenant with the People.

The King the Image of God ; not in Person, but in Jurisdiction.

The King, by Oath at his Coronation, tied to maintain our Liberties, &c.

The Subject, by Oath of Allegiance, tied to serve the King; to maintain all Rights annexed to the Crown, &c.

He may exact another Oath of us, we have no Warrant to require any of him.

A Conqueror may be expelled, where there is not such an Oath, unless there be a yielding.

Leagues made in the Name of England, &c. Some to continue so long as the Lamp shall stand upon the Altar.

Leagues, &c.

Every Person that held Land by Homage, was to prove his full Age by a Writ of AEtate probanda, and ought [to] return the same into the Chancery.

The Chancellor was to certify the Lord Privy Seal, that he was of full Age.

12 H. IV. Placito 4.

The Lord Privy Seal was to certify the Great Chamberlain thereof, requiring him to receive his [Homage].

Natura Brevium.

The Great Chamberlain ought to receive the [Homage], and to certify the Lord Chancellor, that [the] Party had done his Homage ; whereupon the Party had Livery of his Land.

Stamford's Abridgment.

This Course hath been omitted, and Homage respited in the Exchequer; which hath much grieved his Majesty's Subjects of all Sorts.

The Lord Great Chamberlain is now a Suitor, that Homage may be done as in Time past [hath] been, and no more respited ; and that he may take such Fees for the Receiving of Homage, as by ancient Statutes of this Realm hath been allowed.

Westm. 2.

Respite of Homage is a Charge paid every fifth Term ; if Default be made, a Noble is lost; is doubled every Term ; and in short time groweth to a great Charge.

Homage is done but once in a Man's Life-time; and then the ordinary Fees, and a reasonable Fine paid, and no further Vexation.

Notwithstanding that the Doing of Homage hath been omitted, as is aforesaid; yet the [Fine ] thereof hath been usually paid out of the Petty Bag, upon the Recording of the Livery :

The Persons that have Fees upon the Suit of Livery :

The Lord Chancellor

The Master of the Rolls

The Lord Great Chamberlain

The King's Secretaries

The Master of the Wards

And divers other Persons have Fees also out of every Livery.

Notwithstanding the Payment of the said Fees.

By respite of Homage the Charge certain is yearly.

The Charge uncertain, is daily, continual.

Which is clean taken away and ended in Doing of Homage,

Antiquity, not Greatness, giveth Precedence.

The King, by the Name of Brittaine, shall have the latest Place.

Precedence.

Concludeth, for the Course of Proceeding, that every several Argument be assigned to a several Person. - Quod in Communi curatur, ab omnibus negligitur.

That we come with great Strength of Care and Judgment, with none of Passion.

Other Objections made :

1. If we should assent first, and Scotland disassent, Dishonour to England.

2. We should make that Treason by this Act, which before was no Offence.

By saying, before Notice, that he is not King of Brittaine, or, after Notice, that he is King of England, we commit Treason.

3. To enact here, for the Union of the Title, for Scotland, not in our Power: - Exempled by Spayne,

Conclus. The King cannot preserve the fundamental Laws, by uniting, no more than a Goldsmith, Two Crowns.

The bare Alteration of the Name taketh them not away, but an Union doth : - Exempled by divers Cases. - We shall alter all Laws, Customs, Privileges, by uniting.

Moved, That first this House, then the other, do set down the Reasons in Writing; that there may be no Disadvantage.

Sir Fran. Bacon : - Three Qualities of Objections to be avoided :

1. Too light, too mean. - Quis in Rebus tam arduis vilia et levia miscet ?

2. Too subtle, - Rerum pondera verborum frangit argutiis.

3. Too high : More than the Exigents of the Cause : - That is, Tentare arcana imperii. Cicero pro Milone.

Conclus. That some Persons may be selected, upon whom the Burden may rest.

The Lawyers to fortify what they have said.

Moved by another. Not to omit any Objection pertinent.

The Name of Brittaine doth result of England and Scotland: - By what Laws shall this Brittaine be governed?

If the King should die without Issue, the Law of Nations giveth it to the Heir of the Father's Side ; and that is no Englishman.

Let us not so adopt a younger Brother, that he cousen the Elder. - Marry not a poor Wife, to make her a Master.

Conclus. When the Lords do sit, let us give them Notice of our Desire and Readiness for a Conference.

In the mean, the Committee to set down Reasons and Objections.

Lawyers for Matter of Law.

Inconvenience in State by such as are fit for it.

Inconvenience in Reason by others.

The Committee appointed to meet for this Purpose this Afternoon.

The Serjeant to give Warning to divers now absent.