House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 28 February 1610

Mercurii, 28o Februarii, 1609

Shipping.

L. 2. - SHIPPING and Mariners. - Sir Tho. Lowe, Mr. James, against it; Sir Rob. Maunsell, with it; Mr. Gore, contra. -

Privy Council, the King's learned Counsel, Sir Rob. Maunsell, Sir Tho. Lowe, Mr. Gore, Burgesses of Port Towns, Sir G. Carey, Mr. Askwith, Sir Charles Cornwallys, Mr. Recorder, Barons of the Cinque Ports, Sir Tho. Smyth, Sir Antho. Rowse, Sir Edw. Mountague, Sir Geo. Selby, Mr. Middleton, Sir Carey Raleigh, Sir Edw. Conway, Sir Tho. Edmond, Sir Walter Cope, Sir Edw. Sandys, Sir Edw. Grevill, Sir Edw. Cecyll, Sir Rich. Spencer, Sir Geo. Moore, Sir Maurice Berkley, Sir John Mallorie, Sir Herbert Crofts, Mr. Brook, Sir Warwick Heale, Sir Wm. Paddy, Mr. Middleton, Mr. Prowse: - Monday, Chequer Chamber.

Pyracies.

Mr. Whytson, touching Pyracies. - A Bill.

Supply.

Sir Maurice Barkley: - No Reason but that we may

- compound for Tenures. -

Tenures and Wardships.

A Message, that no Pre-contract before a Supply: -

Not meant. - The Lords mistaken. -

Our Duty not to precipitate. -

The King's Service: - That being done, to proceed, pari passu, to annual Support, and present Supply.

Sir Geo. Moore : - Salomon begged Wisdom : - He gave Riches and Honour. - Without Riches, Honour and all go to the Ground. -

The King must supply, either by Sale of his Land, or Advantage of penal Laws. -

The Revenue not answerable to the Dignity. -

The Star arising. -

City of Carthage subdued, Hanniball laughed with a weeping Heart. - When Honour is in Question - no Care

- when -

Not to stay our Offer; as though we lingered upon a Bargain. -

Make an Overture, that we are willing to give Relief, when we have debated.

Sir Antho. Cope: - To clear the Opinion: - That we are mistaken, that we seek a Contract.

Sir Geo. Carey: - 1. No Subsidy demanded. 2. Respect of Honour. -

Rights of Sovereignty never grant : - Prerogative we must contract. - Just Grievances - pay nothing. -

Since more in this Parliament than in any heretofore, that Mr. Speaker should go to his Majesty, and give Thanks; and to offer, that we would contribute in all his Occasions.

Mr. Solicitor : - To excite Affections, leave it: - To inform in Judgment, impart it.

The King benefits in every Man's Mind more in any Man's Mouth. -

If the Orator within do not, a Parl' Tale will not. -

To pass by a Point of Honour. - De modo contendimus. -

Hath propounded Demands, - offered Retribution. -

The Subject passed over Contribution in Silence, - fled to the Sweetness of Contract. -

Noise of Want may encourage Attempts. -

Want of Affection, or Driness. -

Actiones principum pleraeque ad famam componendae. -

Relapses daily to Rome. -

We are in Peace, but not to be trusted, - the subtle Motions and Ambitions of Princes. -

Points of Retribution. - A brazen Wall about the Subjects Possessions, that the King's Prerogative shall never touch.

We be the Gentry; - an Abstract of all the -

Not forget the representative Body: - Farmers, &c. -

The King's Demands may include both : - Tenures, and other Retribution. -

Pray a Continuance of the Conference, and deliver ourselves from that Point of Honour.

Mr. Duncombe : - Contribution and Retribution, Brethren : - Elder and younger. -

The Lords to know, that if the Lords mistook us, that we were not willing, we are willing. -

Motion: - A Sub-committee of both, to understand the King's Pleasure, for Leave to treat of Wardship, before we proceed.

Mr. Fuller : - More demanded than ever was in Parliament. -

Greater Graces in the King than ever since Salomon's Time. -

To supply, and yet uphold the Commonwealth. - Like to a natural Body. -

Gold in the Head ; - Leather in the Foot, but to go bare-foot. - Go in Shoes, but -

Not supply, but by Tenures, and Purveyors. -

Twenty Nobles a Year - 20l. presently: - Offer.

Sir Tho. Beamount: - Happy, that both Contribution and Retribution went together. -

First, to examine the Value and Price of these, then to think what is meet. -

To think what we are able to do, and then to give the King his full Content.

Sir Herbert Crofts: - To send a Message to clear ourselves in point of Honour, and be free from any Manner of Engagement.

Sir Wm. Strowd: - To chuse a Committee.

Mr. Yelverton : - To know our Resolution, to give, or not to give. - Not a Permission to treat of Contract, before we shew to give. -

The first Session, in Justice; the fourth, for Supply. - Ocean complain of Want: - Maestum et mirabile. - But must be supplied.

The Rivers must contribute. - All must have Recourse to the Head. -

King governs not according to Precedent, but by the Rule of Right and Reason. -

Our Lion prays, - Not the Lion of the Forest, but the Lion of the Tribe of Juda. -

Pride of Apparel, Excess in Building and Diet: - Spare of this, and give the King.

Sir Roger Owen : - Not to say we will give; but to discover an Inclination. -

Whether fit to say we will give. -

When the Grievances are known to be relieved, then we may offer more largely. -

Never any Precedent, first to say we will give. -

To say by Message, there is a general Inclination : - No Despair.

Mr. Hyde: - Not fit to engage ourselves. - Until 14 Eliz. no Subsidy : - 18o One Subsidy : - 23o One : - 31o double: 35 Three: - 39 Three : - 43 Four. -

Carry this to Rome: - Execute these Lnws against Jesuits presently : - All Abettors to forfeit: - Settle their Inheritance in the Crown. - Present Supply. - To have the Laws executed.

Sir Rob. Cotton: That never the King's Debts disputed. - Kings of best Note had Subsidies at all Times : - Ten Years together.

Mr. Hoskins : - Like a Contract of Marriage : - No betrothing as good. -

Individuum vagum. - A dangerous Point. -

A Message, that we are not yet determined.

Mr. Attorney : - Single the Question, and speak to it. - Discretion. -

No Answer, but a Question to a Question. -

No Hope of Retribution, except we gave them Contentment. -

Inclination, no Assurance : - Merely enigmatical. -

Fail Correspondence. -

We desired to know the Particulars : - Thereby engaged. - Disreputation. -

The King demands first, therefore the first Answer. - We say no, we will - This intestine Honour. -

No Aversion from giving at all. -

That we mean to give, - but not in quanto,

Sir Chro. Perkins: - Supply by Sale, by Prerogative not, but by Contribution. - Decent to give Answer according to the Proportion of the King's Wants and the Necessity of the Subjects : - By Conference.

Sir Wm. Skipwith : - At Edinburgh, Money for Eight in the Hundred. - Not to offer to give. -

Rivers are not dry, but by the Breach of the Banks. -

Q. Whether the Dispute shall be put off: -

The House divided:

Tellers, for the Yea: Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Tho. Holcroft, for the Noe: Sir Wm. Strowd, Sir Herbert Crofts,

With the Yea, to put off, 148.

With the Noe, to sit still, 160.

Resolved, to sit.

After the Settling of the House ;

Sir Wm. Morrice: - To send, that we are willing.

Sir John Mallorie: - Chearfully to say that we are willing to give: - Time enough for Retribution.

Sir Wm. Paddy: - That our Hearts are full of Desire to give; and that we are willing to give Content in Contribution.

Mr. Recorder: - For Supply, we will think of it in due Time; and, like dutiful Subjects, do not doubt but to give his Majesty Satisfaction. -

We shall be ready for Support: - To confer, what we should have.

Mr. Chancellor : - Intend, is mental Purpose. -

Enter into Consideration, what we shall have. -

To give a plain, open, English Answer, that we purpose to give somewhat.

Sir Edw. Grevill. -

Mr. Speaker. -

Quest. Whether Mr. Recorder's Motion : - Resolved:

- Supply.

Support -

We have not yet heard whether [a] -

The House, with a tender Feeling and Respect, hath, by your Lordships Relation, taken Knowlege of the State of his Majesty's Wants; and, for Supply therein, will, in due Time, take Consideration of it; and doubt not, but, like dutiful Subjects, to give his Majesty good Satisfaction.

For the Matter of annual Support; because they have not heard from your Lordships, what Course you intend in the Point of Tenures, lately propounded to your Lordships by them, they have not yet entered into any Consideration of it; but, when they shall hear from your Lordships, they will be ready to join with your Lordships in Conference, &c.