House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 11 April 1614

Lunae, 11 Aprilis

Reading of Bills.

SIR Edwyn Sandes moveth, that no Bill may be read the second time,| until half an Hour past Eight; and the third time, till past Nine: And ordered accordingly.

Resolutions on Motions.

He moveth again, for avoiding Precipitation, and Prevention, and Division, that in all such Motions as shall not come in by Bill, and shall concern the general, no Resolution may be that Day; but it may be committed, and reported; the rather, because here One may speak but Once in One Day, where, at the Committee, Two or Three times; whereupon often the Committees, first disagreeing, afterwards agree.

This referred, to be resolved To-morrow.

King's Speech reported.

Mr. Solicitor - a Report from his Majesty. - Non audivimus vocem, et timuimus; audivimus vocem, et ex-ultavimus. - He not desirous to contend. - His Report, knoweth, shall displease none. - The King's Eye and Tongue most correspondent. - Cannot express the Sound of the King's Speech; for that only fitting for a King. -

1. To be gathered by the King's Speech, that his Greatness, desired, was the Good of his Subjects; so as not only a King over us, but for us.

2. That it should never displease him, to be ruled by his own Laws, where he, and his Subjects, interested.

3. That his Majesty did, what a Prince should speak; falling from Words to Inscriptions of Grace; causing that to be read, which he intended. -

Feared therein Two Things:

1. The Weakness of the Voice of him that was to relate it.

2. Because the Riches, contained under those Inscriptions, not then opened. -

Commanded to read them again, and punctually to open the Benefits of every One : - What Gold in every One of them. -

Bills for removing Grievances.

1. The Passing of the Sheriffs Accounts, &c. - They now pass Seven Offices, Seven ..... and in every One leave some Wool. - This Bill to prevent both Charge and Delay, by a great Penalty upon the Breakers.

2. An Act against secret Offices and Inquisitions. - Before, to be taken in locis apertis; but now to be provided, that the Party whom it shall concern, shall have Notice, by a Note, in Term-time, set up in Westminster Hall; wherein shall be set down the Particulars of what shall be proceeded in. - The Office not thought fit to be made void; but the Penalty to be so great upon the Party offending, as this House shall think fit.

3. The Power to Commissioners to survey the Statutes, - repeal the obsolete, &c. - For that this not easy, the Preparation only this Parliament; by an Act to give Authority against the first Session of the next Parliament. - His Majesty well pleased to release his Part of these Forfeitures.

4. A Release of Conditions in Leases, &c. - The Condition so penal, as, upon a Cesser in the King's Case, no Receipt, for 100 Years together, will make it good. - The Exchequer Chamber to have Power given them to help this. - Throckmorton's Case. - Lands holden by Lease, from Queen Marye's Time to 27 Eliz. yet against Payment of the Rent, all that Time, the Estate avoided.

5. Pleading in the Exchequer, whereby a great Charge to the Subject. - That the Words in the former Statute, " where no Variance is," hath defeated the whole Meaning of the Law. - Where but Parcel sold, no Help; but drive you to plead it all. - They call the first Record the first Voucher, in Point of * Person, Use, &c. - Now to be provided, if the Party inform the Truth of the Thing, Use, &c. no Pleading to be.

6. His Majesty's Revenue by Respite of Homage, not above 600l. per Annum; the Charge 40,000l. per

Annum. - Office of Hell: - 5s. to the King; 26s. 8d. to the Officer. - The King's Duty to be reserved, the Officer's to be taken away.

7. The admitting Pleading of the general Issue. The Benefit of this known to the Practisers of Law, and those which have had an Experience thereof in the Exchequer. The King's Title of Record; therefore, by Law, the Subject to plead specially, how long, and chargeable howsoever. - The general Issue now to be pleaded, where the King hath been any long Time out of Possession. - Great difference between Evidence - giving upon the general, and upon the special, Issue. - Now his Majesty in the Straits, the Subject at large. The Subject to provide but for One Thing, the King's Counsel for all.

8. The Repeal of a Branch of 34 H. VIII. for repealing Laws in Wales, without Parliament. This only concerneth Wales; whom when H. VIII. had reduced to the absolute Government of this Crown, then Liberty given the King, to establish what Laws he would; whereby the King, as a Conqueror, may make what Laws there he will. Now they to be inheritable to the English Laws, in the same Manner, as the English.

9. Long Continuance of Liveries, and unnecessary Bringing in of Evidence into the Court of Wards. For the first, continuing Liveries Seven or Seventeen Years after full Age, whereby Protection there, and no Suit suffered elsewhere; and the Title oft examined there; now, the Heir of full Age, to be provided, that, having his Feathers, he shall fly alone. For those of full Age first, like Suits upon Protections. This to be provided for, that every one shall quickly sue, as well as tendered his Livery. -

For Evidences bringing in; not to be, but in special Cases. - Charge of seeing their own Evidences. - Notes out of it - This by Discretion, not warranted by any Course of Law. - This now to be provided for. All these a Confluence of Grace.

10. A Vexation, by assigning Debts to the Crown. A sleeping Bond, by Assignment to the King, recoverable by the King's Prerogative, Divers of Purpose Bailiffs to this End. - For 4 l. due to the King by this Means, 500 l. to the Party. - The King will not have his Prerogative a Stalking Horse for other Mens Debt. The King now will have but his own true Debt, and but by the ordinary Process.

11. For making Estates of attainted Persons liable to the Payment [of] their Debts, Land and Goods in this Case gone, the Debt to the Party quite lost. This is a Part of the King's Justice, suum cuique tribuere. The King thinketh that none of his own, which owing to another Man. -

The King resolved to be lavish in Grace, if possible for a Prince to be. His Purpose, for the Three Things, continueth : but desireth a Respite till they may be digested, -

1. Cart-takers. - The meanest Sort most damnified; the Charge intolerable, and the Burthen also. - This a Flower of Grace. - By way of Ordinance, which shall not fail; or by Act, as by his Majesty's Wisdom shall be fittest; and to have it at the same Price as one Brother from another.

2. Assart Lands. - Two Sorts : - 1. Lands merely encroached : Not to be parted with; for entered upon by Wrong. 2. Done by Commissions which now not extant; and Trouble therein : This to be helped. - Assarts may be made by Justices of the Forest, as most of those now questioned have been; upon Pretence, none can be assarted, except formerly arrented : This to be reformed.

3. The Liberality of the Pardon; the Particulars whereof (when his Majesty hath digested them) will be such, as all shall highly prize. -

That his Majesty thinketh yet himself straightened in his Graces. - In general, he as willing to grant whatsoever may be good for the Commonwealth, and shall be thought of by this House; hoping, nothing will be sought, tending to the Diminution of his Revenue, or Alteration of his Government. -

His Majesty desireth, not to have his Love expressed in Words, but Actions: Offereth therefore Two of them in a Bill.

Mr. Fuller moveth whether the rest of the Bills shall be drawn here, or sent thither ready: Arid answered, they shall come, ready.

Eligibility of Attorney-General.

Reports. - Sir H. Hobart the only Attorney that hath been in this House, appearing in the Clerk's Hands. Sir H. Hobart first of this House; after, chosen Attorney, and by Connivancy served there.

Mr. Secretary: - The Question come to his Majesty's Ears. - His Conceit, that no dislike of Mr. Attorney, nor unwillingness with his Service; but out of a Respect to the Privileges of this House; which he will ever maintain. -

That his Majesty knoweth no Difference, for the Reason, between the Serjeant, higher, and the Solicitor, - than the Attorney. - A Reason of Difference, ubi eadem ratio, eadem dispositio. -

Moveth, that, because returned and sworn, may be continued this Parliament; for hereafter, as this House shall please.

Sir Roger Owen: - That he thinketh he shall deceive the Expectation of them that called upon him. - No Precedent. - Privileges Privitiva legum: - So no Reason to be required. - They that ought to be here, ought to be free. - In the King's Case, a Matter in Fact, [and] in Law. -

King's privy and learned Counsel suffered: for that they have oft made Motions for the common State. -

That he hath received, this Morning, Advertisement from honourable Persons, why now special Cause he should serve; which not fit to be discovered here publickly, but will privately inform any Man that Cause (for Matter of State this Parliament) he should be, this Parliament, of the House; with an Order, that hereafter no Attorney-general should at any Time be of the House.- -

Elector Palatine.

Mr. Justice Crook, Mr. Justice Winch, Mr. J. Doddridge, Mr. Justice Nicholles, Mr. Dr. Amy, Mr. Dr. ... bring, from the Lords, a Bill, intituled,

Princess Elizabeth.

L. 1. 2.

An Act concerning the high and mighty Prince Fredericke, Count Palatyne of the Rhene, Duke of Bavaria, of the sacred Romane Empire Arch-sewer and Elector, &c. and the high and mighty Princess, the Lady Elizabeth his Wife, Daughter to the King's Majesty, and their Issues.

The Title whereof was, presently after the Departure of the Judges, read by Mr. Speaker; and the Bill by him delivered to the Clerk; and by him read, and delivered to Mr. Speaker; who, for want of a Breviate, read the same.

Sir Carey Reynolds .- - That this Bill speaketh for itself.

- The Palatyne descended from the Kings of England. - The great Joy by the Issue. - Moveth for a second Reading thereof.

The same Act thereupon read by the Clerk secondly, and by him delivered to Mr. Speaker, who read the same again.

L. 2. An Act concerning the high and mighty Prince Fredericke, Count Palatyne, &c.

Mr. Fuller: - For the Declaration of the Law mentioned in this Act, for Twenty Generations afterwards.

- The Danger generally upon Matches. - A mere Stranger, after Five or Six Descents. - Liketh well of the Provision for these, and their Issues for ever; but not to have a such general Declaration.

Sir Herbert Croftes: - No Ground to commit a Bill, without some Matter shewed why it should be committed - Moveth (not as rector Chori) for Patience to hear Men out.

Committed to the whole House, except Mr. Speaker:

- To-morrow, in this House, at Two of the Clock. -

Eligibility of Attorney-general.

Sir Rich. Willyamson: - No Precedent for Mr. Attorney-general, in hoc individuo ; so nothing against him, but he might be of the House. - Considerable, as he is a Subject. - Every Freeman may be chosen. - The Words of the Writ, de probis et discretioribus: He both these. - The Precedents to disable him, ought to be shewed on the

other Side. - Doctor of Divinity. - The Boroughs have chosen according to the Writ. -

Precedents upon the same Reason. - De rebus paribus pari ratione. -

Precedents for the Serjeant, above, and Solicitor, below, the Attorney. -

Jeffreyes, 18o Eliz. - Ruled, because no Voice, nor any Member there.

Onslowe, 8* Eliz. - Suit for him, to chuse him Speaker. -

Cooke, Solicitor, Speaker, 35 Eliz.

The Actions of this House carried abroad, though unjustly, and disorderly. - If he rejected, and the other Two stand; either an Imputation to Mr. Attorney, or to this House, to do this: - So concludeth for it, both now, and hereafter.

Mr. Whytlock: - Right to the other, because he stood up first; not for his Text of Elihu. - Here not Ancientness respected, but first standing up. -

Precedents searched for, where an Attorney returned, and removed. - Search from Ed. II. - Searched, who Speakers from 51 Ed. III. till now. - Searched, whether any of them Attornies. - Found, some Speakers had been Attornies: Whether, when Speakers, the Question. -

H. IV. Babington Speaker, and had been Attorney. -

H. VI. Wm. Tresham, and (as informed to him) Attorney-general, Speaker Three Parliaments; 18o, 25, 28o, H. VI. but knoweth not whether at that Time Attorney, or no. -

Nevill . . H. VIII. of the King's Counsel, and Speaker.

Friend, and Convert, Mr. Hackwell: - Thought he had seen a Record, where an Attorney of this House. - Sir Jo. Baker, Speaker 1o Ed. VI. and had been Attorney in H. VIII. time, but in Truth removed, before, to be Chancellor of the Exchequer: That the Cause of that Mistaking. -

No Record, that he can find, that Attorney, Solicitor, Serjeant, Master of the Rolls, Secretary, Chancellor of the Exchequer, from 26o H. VIII. -

Onslow, Solicitor; Cordell, Master of the Rolls. - Never any Master of the Rolls, of the House, till Cromwell, 26o H. VIII. because, before, all Masters of the Rolls, till then, in holy Orders, and so could not be of this House. -

Audeley, King's Serjeant, Speaker tempore H. VIII. - Dyer, &c. -

Heretofore, as in Jeoffreyes Case, Strife by the House, to increase their Number; therefore sent to have Jeffreyes remanded; now the Table turned. -

Moveth, he may now stand; and an Order, none at any Time hereafter. -

1. He a Voice in the Election ; ergo, may be elected :

- Shall be bound by Laws here; ergo, fit to have a Voice.

The Parliament a Council, and Court of Law. - Ultima provocatio from the King's Bench to the Parliament.

- Attendeth there, as a Court of Law and Justice; not of Counsel; for that House only to meddle with Judgment in Law not this. -

No Practiser of the Law, a Member of this House, may practise; for that a Judge : - For Matter of Honour, &c. in the Higher House, may be of Counsel, for this House cannot meddle with it. -

15o Ed. 3, all bound to come to the Parliament, without Exception. -

5o R. II. all, elected, to come to the Parliament, without Exception, without some reasonable Excuse. - That the ancient Course to excuse here by Attendance above. -

No Law against the Attorney, but that which against all the Privy Council, Solicitor, Serjeant, and all Knights of Shires, not Resiants, or not Freemen in Boroughs. -

Their Oath their own Consciences to look unto, not we to examine it. - Concludeth neither for him, nor against him. - A middle Course, avoiding Ostracismus amongst the Athenians. - If any too great, banished for Ten Years: his Estate preserved, and then returned.

Two or Three of them; their Names put between Two Oyster shells, and One of them by Lot to be banished. -

Moveth, for this Time, his Stay; with an Order against all hereafter.

Sir Dudley Digges: - This not moved out of Schisme, or Ostracisme. - Never feareth any Man, or his Page. - Commendeth the Gravity and Wisdom of the House. - No Precedent, but imaginary, if we strictly stand to the Liberties of our House. - The Coming in by degrees, of those which then spake for the Commonwealth. - Not now only as Attorney: Non Dominus, sed ille. - His Ingenuousness such, as he, (if present) would acknowlege greater Cause why he should not be, than any other. - His Power, his Means (being here) to observe all, or requite any, that shall oppose him. -

Moveth, for Satisfaction to his Majesty, that he may be continued; with an Order to restrain all other.

Mr. Finch, accordant; for his Service, and the Precedent for State in foreign Parts. -

None to be excepted by Law, but Sheriffs, in Orders, and Judges.

The Judges must be of the Upper House, for Writs of Error, which must be done by their Direction, and Advice. -

No Difference, where Attorney before, or after. -

Moveth for a middle Course, for this One Time, and Man. -

Mr. Ashley: - If he Mercury, and Mercury a Thief; the more Cause to this House, to look to it.

The other House, and this, distinct Consultations. -

Moveth for Two Questions :

1. * * * *

Mr. Wentworth moveth for further Advisement upon this; for that they now to tender Bills, of Matters of Grace, from his Majesty; wherein they best informed; the Rule for Advisement in Judgments. - Moveth for a Reference further.

Mr. Crew: - Friends not easily parted; yet rather to part with a Joint of his Hand, than to lose any Part of that politique Body, whereof he a Member. -

Question: Whether eligible.

2. Whether, returned, ought to serve.

3. Quid expediat. -

The fittest Man to conjure down, he that raised up the Spirit of this Question. -

1. Reason: The Attorneyship a distinct Office, not standing. -

Counsellors of State Furtherers of the Commonwealth : - Sir W. Mildmay. -

1. Exclusion of Barons, Sheriffs, Mayors, Bailiffs, Judges. -

The Reason to exclude Judges: - Writs of Error, of the King's Bench, reversable in Parliament. - That thus a Bill signed by his Majesty, sealed by the Chancellor, brought into the Upper House by the Chief Justice, and they there then to judge. -

13o Ed. III. a Commission for ordering Things in the Four Courts. -

The King, by his Attorney-general, present in every Court; all passeth him; therefore he to be present always in the Upper House. -

A constant Writ served upon the Attorney, for Attendance in the Upper House, as upon the Judges. -

The Solicitor's Place but a Limb of Mr. Attorney. -

For Conveniency, the Bills of Grace drawn by the King's Counsel; his Presence therefore necessary.

2. Arcana Imperii. - Moveth for an Order against it ever hereafter, and to be retained now.

1. Question: Whether he shall, for this Parliament, remain of the House, or not: - Resolved, He shall.

2. Question: Whether any Attorney-general shall, after this Parliament, serve as a Member of this House :

- Resolved, No.