BHO

House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 05 February 1621

Pages 507-510

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 1, 1547-1629. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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In this section

Lunae, 5o Februarii

Gatton Election.

SIR Geo. Moore maketh the first Motion, for a Committee for Returns, Elections,and Privileges: Offered Election, a Petition from the Borough of Gatton in Surrey. - Four chosen, and so returned to the Sheriff: He only certified One Return, and sealed not the Counterpart of the Indenture to the Borough for the other.

Committee of Privileges.

All the Privy Council, Sir Edw. Mountague, Mr. Hackwill, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Wm. Strowde, Mr. Tho. Crewe, Sir Christopher Hildyard, Sir Jerome Horsey, Mr. Tho. Fanshaw, Sir Edwyn Sandys, Sir James Perrott, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Sir Henry Andersen, Sir Francis Barrington, Sir Wm. Spencer, Sir H. Withrington, Mr. Alford, Sir Guy Palmes, Sir Edw. Gyles, Sir Nich. Carye, Sir Tho. Rowe, Sir Rich. Yong, Sir Edw. Sackvyle, Sir Warwicke Heale, my Lord Candish, Mr. Drake, Sir Ro. Hatton, Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy, Sir Geor. Manners, Sir Samuel Sandes, Sir Francis Vane, Sir Peter Fretchwell, Sir Wm. Herbert, Lord Clifford, Sir Wm. Udall, Sir Cary Raleigh, Mr. Noye, Sir Francis Darcy, Sir Jo. Brooke, Sir Gervace

Clifton, Sir Edw. Cecill, Sir Myles Fletewood, Sir Walter Earle, Sir Nath. Rich, Sir Charles Morrison, Sir Tho. Denton, Sir Jo. Heyward, Sir Talbott Bowes, Sir Ro. Floyde: - Exchequer Chamber, Two Clock, To-morrow; and every Tuesday and Thursday, during Parliament.

Members to receive the Communion.

Sir James Perrott moveth for a Communion of all the Members of the House. - Out of many Parts of the Kingdom. - A Means of Reconciliation, and so of Concord in Counsel, of those, who dwell near; and, of those more remote, to know their Religion. - This a

Touchstone to try their Faith. - A Jove principium, according to His Majesty's Speech in Star Chamber. -

A Blessing by it upon all other Consultations. - All then to take it. -

Four Gentlemen; Sir Francis Barrington, Sir James Perrott, Sir Jerome Horsey, Sir Edw. Gyles, Sir Wm. Pitt, and the Clerk. - St. Margarett's Church, Westmynster, on Sunday next. Doctor Usher to preach, upon Question: The Clerk to give him Knowlege.

Every Man, in Writing, his Name, and the Place, for which serveth. The former Order, last Session, to be observed.

Recusants, &c.

Sir Edw. Gyles: - Glory of God, King and Kingdom. - Moveth for Liberty of Speech. - Not to admit extravagant Speeches; but that to be punished here: - To petition his Majesty for it. 2. Many Popish Recusants in and about this City; many Multitudes of Jesuits, and Seminaries, ready for Mischief; hidden heretofore, now shew themselves; maintain Arguments openly. - Remembereth the Gunpowder Treason. - Their Malice increased with their Number. - Moveth, this House to be Petitioners to the King, for Redress hereof; for confined, by Law, from London. - Generally allowed a good Motion.

Sir Jerome Horsey concurreth, for the flocking of great Number of Recusants in this City, at this Time. - Cannot be thought, but their Hearts full of Malice against the Gospel, and us, for it. - Four or Six of the House to be appointed, - the Vaults, &c. about the Parliament-house, and Cellars, 2. every Week. - The common Voice, they will not leave, till they performed their Designs. -

There Number hereabouts like to prove dangerous; their Malice like to be the principal Cause of the Ruin of the King of Bohemia. - Their making Bonfires; rejoicing at it. - Hopeth, he yet remaineth the Lord's anointed: Hopeth his Re-establishment; and he a Means to ruin the Pope - Comfort by the King's loving Messages to him. -

They eat their God ; would eat us. - Moveth [a] Petition, or a Motion by the [Privy] Counsellers, to the King from this House, for Execution of the Laws against Recusants; Restraint of them from his Court, and House, without the King's Leave, and Licence; and that the Knights and Burgesses of London may incite the Lord Mayor and Citizens to be like Petitioners to the King. This Security to us, and a chearful Encouragement. They not then so bold, to peep into the House, or shew so much Boldness, as now. -

Adviseth, where last Time a Carrier miscarried a Message to his Majesty, and he therewith offended - thereof hopeth none now. - Bishop of Lincolne.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - A Man shall answer pro otioso silentio. - Two Parts of his Speech: 1. His Reason to approve of the Propositions: 2. Of the Means to convey them to the intended End. - All Care of Liberty, principally, of Liberty of Speech. -

1. A Reason of Honour and Memory to Ancestors, who, by their Care, left this Freedom to us.

2. That we derogate not - Not to do for Fear.

3. To leave the same to our Posterity. - Precedents: 1. Parliament of the King, wherein great Tenderness of their Privilege. - A Remonstrance to the King, of their Right, and Interest, to those Privileges; principally, Freedom of Speech. -

Protesteth, no Desire to adventure further, than may preserve the Liberties of the House : Not to revive that which past: Wisheth it quenched : Yet *

2.' Many Recusants in Town: Confident. - Cause to fear them. - Doctrine and Practice. - Reprieval from the Blow of the Powder Treason : - Feareth not yet pardoned. -

1. Honour of Preservation of the La\vs made by us.

2. For Preservation of the King, and his Posterity.

3. The Scandal by their abiding here. - A Law made, upon the Powder Treason; the greatest Treason, that ever. - To quicken this Law. -

How desperate they may grow, if their Hopes catched

* fall or fail. - Doubteth for the State. -

No Reason, to suffer them to enjoy all the Benefits [of] good Subjects, who so great Enemies. -

Bonfires in their Halls, for the Disaster of the King's Children. - Prayed against the Stile of. -

The Scandal: - That to hear Mass, and to go to a Sermon, almost all of one Account. -

Reformers, and Deformers, lodged near. -

Care, not to be cold in Religion. -

The Means, to carry these to the right End, -

His Majesty the Judge: To him only to appeal for Justice, Mercy, &c. -

Propoundeth, to go to the Lords, to desire a Conference about the Honour, Privilege of this House; the Good of the Kingdom in general. -

Supply, &c.

To advance the good Ends abroad, Supply at home, moveth for a present Message to them.

Mr. Alford concurreth, for Conference; but to prepare first. Speaketh against Combustions. - God be merciful to the Realm of England. - Never so much Cause for any Parliament. -

Liberty of Speech never abridged, from H. I. Time, till Temp. H. VIII. Then Strowde [a] -

The Spiritual Lords to pray for the Parliament. -

The Temporal (then refusing to confer) never heard of before. -

Mr. Speaker not to speak, because hath no Voice, till Leave. -

That the privy Counsellors here, Knights and Burgesses. - Parties for ourselves. - When Liberty of Speech granted, to be used with Discretion: Our Speeches not fit before. - Great Respect to the Head. -

Undertakers. - Supply in the first Place. -

Mr. Speaker to keep the Orders of the House.

Mr. Secretary: - Glad, he gave Place to Mr. Alford. - Freedom of Speech granted by the King ; so with Respect, and Duty. -

Remembereth the principal Cause of this Parliament: Ardua Regni: Good Laws for the Commonwealth, and Supply of the King's own Wants. The last, to keep the State, both from Danger and Scorn. -

The last the more pressing, and now a bleeding Business; therefore, though not usual, yet in respect of the Necessity and Rareness of the Case, to begin there first.

- An aching Head, a sick Body : - To labour the Cure of the first. - King, and Kingdom, Relatives not to be parted. -

The King expecteth Supply in his urgent Necessities, and especially to recover the Patrimony of his Children. His Majesty's Wants known to be urgent. -

How could it be otherwise, considering the [vast] Expences of the Crown, and the small Means he [hath] received from the Subjects? He none in Ten Years. -

* Benevolence: - The Privy Seals, and Loans, either paid [out] of the King's own proper, or else lie still upon the great Debts. -

Though the Queen Eliz. not in Wars, nor her Dominions so large; yet the last oft increaseth Charge. - Spayne not rich by Naples, &c. -

This Parliament not called to examine, but to help, the Wants. - A Fire in the Roof: Not to stand upon the Cause of the Fire, but to quench it. -

The King persuaded of our Love, and Readiness to

supply him; and therefore is ready to shew his Love to us, in whatsoever may be reasonably desired. -

All Princes in dangerous State, that have not Provision ready, as well for extraordinary, as ordinary. And where we Peace, and Queen Eliz. Wars, Cause to thank God for it. But Charges of Peace oft equal to Wars. Ambassages ordinary and extraordinary: The King sought to, of all Parts, to be an Umpire. - The King's bountiful Christmas now over; his Servants now at a more moderate Diet, yet fit. He now cannot subsist, without Help here by Subsidy. -

The King hath striven to ease his Charge, loth to burthen his People. - Houshold,Navy,Ordnance, Ireland, &c. - The Crown not to be suffered to lie under this Burthen, without Help. - Dangerous, in Princes Cases : Contempt dangerous at home and abroad; dangerous, not for King only, but for Kingdom also.

The second Cause, the Defence of the Palatinate; which was the First Cause of calling this Parliament. Though ths King, for many just Causes, hitherto a Neutral, for Bohemia, in respect of Conscience, Honour, &c. yet, for the other, resolved, if not by Treaty, yet by War, to regain the Palatynate. This admitteth no Delay; out of One Day, which may overthrow it.

The State of it now. - The Spring approacheth: Spinola hath conquered all, but Heylderberghe, and Two or Three other Places: Bohemia defeated : All the confederate Princes and Countries fallen off, and reduced to the Emperor's Obedience: The united Princes, how much, nay, how little, done, well known: Will likely fall off. - Referred to a Council of War, they have reported, 30,000 for the First Year. The King already hath borrowed of * * and employed in that Business, 100,000l. An extraordinary Ambassage ready; but the best Treaty, with the Sword in the Hand. -

All Christendom in a Confusion: - Germany, Low Countries, Swevya and Polland. - Turke - the greatest Army, that ever in Christendom, sithence Sulaman's Time, to be ready against the First of March: This very important to us. - Not honourable for the King, to have his Sword in his Sheath, when so many drawn. -

Moveth for a Committee. -

For our Grievances; many, and just. - No Body, without some Sores. - The King hath promised a gracious Hearing; and he, that will not then take hold of it, betrayeth his Country, for which trusted.

Sir Wm. Cope professeth his own Zeal to further the King's Business. - Against a Question now for a Committee. Is for the Furtherance of One Part of Mr. Secretary's Speech. Wisheth this Parliament had been 12 Months sithence ; but now look what to be done. The Supply divided: For Bohemia and Palatinate; and for the King's other Wants: Yet a Committee now for neither. - Expect a Committee of the whole House, to sit every Afternoon: They to consider of the State of Christendom, England, State of Wars, and of the best Means to effect this, which is by a general Committee. This the greatest Terror, that may be, to the Adversary :

Mr. Treasurer: - Beseech the honourable House to consider, that never any well-affected Subject had a greater Cause to be pressed to make Supply, for preventing of pressing Dangers. - No Doubt of Readiness, from the King, of Retribution. Royal and free Dealing with him, the best Means to work upon his royal Disposition. - Promiseth good Offices to the King: Whosoever doth not so, betrayeth King, and Kingdom.

Sir Jo. Davys. - Expected not this Motion, this Day; yet thinketh it fit, now moved. All Men run together to quench the Fire: which our Case. Though we not so here, yet the Palatinate on Fire, Religion, and all other Countries. -

Though we begin it now, cannot end it now : Though we agree of Subsidies, yet great Time of drawing, reading, passing: - Commissions : - Levying, paying in, &c. - Addeth, for a Cause, this the greatest Occasion, sithence the Conquest: Four other: 1. For Recovery of the holy Land: 2. For redeeming of Rich. I. 3. For Recovery of Fraunce: 4. For saving Ireland. But the Recovery of [the] Palatinate greater.

Supply, &c.

For Jerusalem; a perpetual [War,] for 100 Years, at least. H. II. gave 50,000 [Marks] at that Time: R. I. pawned all the Jewels and Demesnes of the Crown : All this to obey the Pope's Com' and imposture; which was, to recover the blessed Land, the Pope had cursed; but his End, to usurp upon their temporal Jurisdiction : We, for Palatynate, a just Title; they none.

For the second of R. I. whose Ransom 150,000 Marks ; Plate of religious Houses, Chalices. This a noble Work, and better than the French; who left their King here, divers Years, unransomed. Religion not then in Question, as now.

So, for the Wars in Fraunce; the Title just; Great Expence for it; but recovered at last: No Loss, if that had not been meddled with; but the Palatinate otherwise : This dangerous to the Low Countries, United Princes, &c.

For Ireland, Two Millions disbursed, and given here Six Subsidies, Twelve Fifteens ; yet the Loss of Ireland not so dangerous, as the Palatynate; for the Irish would never long have endured the Spanish Tyranny. - Moveth, to proceed to giving this Day ; which, no doubt, but God will bless.

Sir George Moore: - Divers Things proposed. - That every Man expecteth and requireth Liberty of Speech - Free Choice, so free Voice. This granted in the Proclamation, before the Parliament which excellent: This granted by the King's own Mouth. We live under Laws, made by ourselves; other Nations ruled by the Civil Law. - And doubteth not, but every Man will contain himself within Bounds. -

Religion, and the Church, the principal Matters of the Parliament. - Grievances, and Supply : Time, the Matter. Parliaments called to relieve Grievances, as by the Statute of E. III. Many encreased in this long Intermission. The Honour of God, Religion general to be looked for in the First Place. - Moveth, both Supply, and Grievances, may go hand in hand. - Esaw came out first, yet Jacob the Blessing. - Beginning with the King, turneth to the Good of the Kingdom. - Moveth, that a Committee of the whole House, to consider of both ; but no Speech now de quanto.

Sir James Perott: - If we differ with our Equals, to have it done in Love; if with our Superiors, to have it done with Respect. -

Supply, and Grievances to be as Twins, and to go together; no Precedency. 1. Charity to the Kingdom, - A Proclamation, to restrain to speak of Matters of State : The King's Speech confirmed it, restraining receiving of Petitioning against the Church. -

Moveth for a Petition to the King, to explain himself, what intended by Matters of State. - As Recusants, &c. so for Monopolies, &c. - may come within Compass of the Prerogative: So, for the Palatynate; what to be given, how to be employed, &c. may come within Compass of Matter of State. - A Committee may frame this this Afternoon, and bring it into the House Tomorrow. -

Is against Conference with the Lords. - Frustra fit per plura, quod fieri potest per pauciora. - Truly honoureth all the Lords in general. - In the First Parliament rejected : If they deny us again a Prejudice.- - Moveth fora Committee, to consider of a Petition to his Majesty, to this Purpose.

Master of the Rolls : - Commendeth the last Gentleman ; yet differeth from him, in sending a Message to the King for that, which yielded before by the King, as freely, and fully, as here. Hopeth, none will abuse it; if they do, the House will punish it, before News of it to the King. -

For the Necessities of the Kingdom; all, which have spoken, have spoken to One End, - Hath a special Interest in it, in respect of his Estate, Children, &c. - Speaketh for King, and Kingdom. - The Hazard of the King's Grand-children, which Five descended from the Lady Eliz. - The Relief yielded at all Hands; the Question

only of the Time, when to treat of it. If not speedy, will do no good : The necessary Delays, though begin now, will make it long. - Agreeth, that Supply, and Grievances, may go both together: and moveth, half the House may intend the One, and half the other. Necessity a Law, against which no reasoning. Both are to be reported together. - That the King hath more Desire to reform Grievances, than we to supply him. -

Moveth, presently, they may go in hand, pari passu.

Sir Ly. Cranfeild: - The World made and governed [by] Order. - To remember, 1. The Privileges: 2. The Recusants. For the first, already granted: so as we speak, as well - should ; which advised by the King.

For the Second, the Laws against the Recusants; to pray the Execution of them.

The King and Kingdom all one. - Four Heads. - Not to hinder the Business by going too fast.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Virtus silere in convivio, vitium in concilia.

Joyeth, that all bent with Alacrity against the Enemies of God, and us. - Jesuits. Seminaries, popish Catholicks. - A Grievance, - Parliament 7o Jac. that the Laws against Recusants not executed. - To have the Grievances, 7oJac. reviewed; whereof that One: If any new increased, to take special Consideration of them. - He, and Popham, Thirty Days in Examination, at the Tower, of the Powder Treason. The Root of it out of all Countries belonging to the Pope. - When we leave God's Religion, then we undone. - That Faux repented him, he had not done in it. God then, and in 88, delivered us, for Religion's sake. - To have it come in amongst the Grievances; So, for Monopolies.

The Privileges of the House concern the whole Kingdom ; which like a Circle. - Take heed, we lose not our Liberty, by petitioning for Liberty to treat of Grievances, &c. -

No Proclamation of Force against an Act of Parliament. -

E. III. - A Parliament to be holden every Year, that the People may complain of Grievances. -

34 E. III. the like. If a Proclamation against it, the Law to be obeyed, not the Proclamation. -

4 H. VIII. Stowde moveth against the Stannary Court: Fined after the Parliament, and imprisoned by the Steward of the Stannary. Thereupon a Law, for Freedom of Speech in the House. - Yet moveth, it may be done in due and orderly Manner.

Moveth, the Grievances may be set down; those; which be naught in radice, or tractu temporis.- -

Moveth, sithence Initium, Progression, and Consummation to both, let them go together, like Twins. - Not now to refuse to treat of it, for avoiding popish Speeches; [though] would not have wished it to have it moved to Day. -

The King's ordinary Charge and Expence much about one : The extraordinary ever borne by the Subject; the King therefore no Beggar.

A Leak, which may be holpen. -

If all the Toll to the right Mill, will venture all his Estate, the Estate of the King will defray his ordinary Charges. -

A Committee for Grievances, of the whole House. The remedying them will enable and encourage us to increase our Supply.

Sir Wm. Strowde: - That the Petition against Recusants may not fall; for which a Proclamation in 8o Jac.

Mr. Crew moveth, his Majesty may be informed of our general Apprehension of Grief of the Papists Insolency, and of hundreths to come from Mass. No Place, in foreign Parts, suffereth any such Bravado to their Religion. Popish Pictures, by Artificers, set in the Streets: The Prisons full of Jesuits - (to move, they be shut up close Prisoners) where they have Conventicles, whilst we here in Consultation. -

The Statute extendeth only to these indicted, &c. - To move, by Petition, for a Proclamation to discharge all Recusants out of the Town. -

Moveth for a Message to the King, that, if speak undutifully, he may be censured here, and not punished after. -

That ordinarily Supply cometh last; yet, upon the Occasion now present, would prefer it above all other Business, and begin to the King with One Subsidy at first.

Mr. Alford: - To put a Question, whether Petition to the King for Freedom of Speech: 2ly, Against Recusants: 3ly, for the King's Supply: 4ly, For Grievances, - shall be referred to a Committee of the whole House. -

Resolved: - This Afternoon, at Three a Clock, in this House.