House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 17 February 1621

Sabbati, 17o Februarii

Leave of Absence.

Mr. Speaker moveth, for Leave for Mr. Living to go down to Nottingham, to attend a Trial there for his Majesty, in a Quo Warranto. - Granted, upon Question: But to return as soon as that Trial is done.

Privilege - Stay of Trials.

Ordered, Where any Member of the House hath Cause of Privilege, to stay any Trial, a Letter shall issue, under Mr. Speaker's Hand, for Stay thereof, without further Motion in the House.

Bricks, &c.

L. 1. An Act for Reformation of divers Abuses, and Defects, in making and selling of Brick, Tiles, Lime, Sand, using unfit Stuff, and Materials, in finishing of Brick-work, within London, and the Suburbs thereof, and within Fifteen Miles Compass of the said City. - Upon Question, rejected.

Corn, &c.

L. 1. An Act prohibiting the Importation of foreign Grain, and for preserving the reasonable Prices of Corn and Grain.

King's Answer, on Supply.

Sir Edw. Mountague moveth his Majesty's Answer about his Acceptation of the free Gift of this House, may be reduced into Writing by the Privy Council, and then be delivered into the House; that Copies may be made thereof, and be dispersed throughout the Kingdom : And agreed.

Recusants.

Sir James Perrott: - That his Majesty may have his Due out of the RecusantsEstates. TheQueenhad 18,000l. per Annum, when not the Fourth Part of the Recusants, as now; yet now the King but 6,000l. per Annum.

Sir Wm. Strowde, accordant: - For they excuse themselves, by the King's having Two Parts; where, in Truth, the King hath almost nothing, they, in Effect, all. The Commission found in remote Parts of the County: Evidence by their own Servants: 3000l. per Annum found at 50l. per Annum. These no Charge by Offices, but attend -

Mr. Drake, Sir Tho. Row-

Mr. Whitson: - To take them in their own Craft. To let them have all that is found; and the King all the rest.

Sir Nath. Rich: - This Committee to consider of all the Causes, why the Statutes against Recusants are not executed.

All the Privy Council, all those which have spoken: And whosoever else will come to the Committee, to be received, and have Voice.

This Committee to have Power to send for any Officer of the Exchequer, or any other; or to see the Records. The Place, the Exchequer Chamber; Tuesday next Two of the Clock.

Mr. Crew: - That the Committee, besides this Enquiry, may consider, and draw a Bill, to make all Leases, directly, or indirectly, coming to their Use, to be void. -

The Statute, 3 Jac. provideth, no Lease to any Recusant, or any, to his Use.

Limitation of Actions.

Some of the Committees for Limitations of Actions, to meet on Monday in the Morning, in the Committee Chamber, to prepare the Bill for the general Committee in the Afternoon.

Courts of Justice.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle reporteth from the Committee for Courts of Justice, Four Heads: 1. Interfering of Courts.

-Against Protections. - That an ordinary Course in the Court of Wards, where the Principal dieth, his Heir in Ward, the Surety protected; so that the Party that lent, in great Danger to lose his Money. 2ly, Prosecutors for concealed Wards, find an Office in the remote Parts of the Country. - A Lease of Lands gotten before the Party knew it. - A. Travers will cost 100 Marks: Instance in Dayrell and Newdigate's Case.

2. The Jurisdiction of Courts, one pressing upon another. - That at this Time one committed in the Court of Wards, for not obeying the Decree there; where ordered against the Ward : In the Chancery, ordered on the other Part; and the Person in Prison there. - Master of the Rolles Motion to have that determined by private Conference, or to be ordered by the King; not here, where properly not determinable.

3. For Fees: So great, as more Cost to get an Hearing set down of his Cause, than the Cause worth. - That alleged, the Fees not now much greater than Forty Years sithence; but many new Officers in Courts, who took much greater Fees than heretofore.

4. For both the first Grievances in the Court of Wards; a Bill against the Protection, in the First Case; and the Prosecutors to be put into the Bill against Informers. -

That offered from the Lord Chancellor, he would willingly consent that any Man might speak freely any thing concerning his Court.

Mr. Alford: - To re-commit all these Things, because not yet ripe.

Sir Edw. Coke, - against these Protections. - All Principals in a Bond; yet stayed, till full Age of the Heir. - This not warranted by the Jurisdiction of the Court, which created in .... H. VIII. - Overflowing of a Jurisdiction overthroweth it. - To stay, till the Heir's full Age, undone. - In medio tutissimus ibis. - An Act against these Injunctions in this Kind. - The Debtor to have his Debt, and Damages; no Penalty of the Surety; and he to be relieved out of the Ward's Part of his Lands. -

Desireth to be added to the Committee.

Mr. Solicitor: - To extend this to all Courts of Equity. - London grieved with this, petitioned the King; who gave a gracious Answer. - Petitions to the King, and References by him to several Courts. - The King, - that it was never his Meaning, any Surety should be privileged, nor any Man be forced to compound against his Will: - To persuade only, and not compel. Hereupon Lord Chancellor made Orders to tie himself: Sureties to be Principals; No Suits of Conformity.

Re-committed to the Sub-committees, to draw Bills for Redress of all these Things: And Sir Edw. Coke, Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Crew, to be added to them.

Mr. Shervyle: - Notice to the Tenants of the Lands, by 20 Days; now Notice at the County Court. -

Moveth, if an Office unduly found, the Subject may be relieved, without a Travers; and that the Committee may consider of the Means for it.

Mr. Glanvyle: - That, when Evidence given, and the Jury ready to give a Verdict, oft refused. - Not to bind Jurors over to West, except in great Causes; and -

Mr. Guy, acquainted with a Cause depending there Eight or Nine Years, accordant with Mr. Glanvyle. - Commissioners oft partial, and named by the Prosecutor.

Leycestershyre Election.

Mr. Hackwyll: - That the Return by the Sheriff of Leycestershyre, upon the Writ, need not be amended; for by the Statute H. IV. the Indenture is to be the Sheriff's Return; so as the Return upon the Writ void.

Mr. Shervyle, contra. - There must needs be an Answer upon the Writ; and the Sheriff to be ordered to make his Return, at his Peril.

Mr. Brooke: - Not fit to order the Sheriff shall amend his Return. To let the Sheriff, at his Peril, amend it.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Clausulae inconsuetae inducunt suspicionem. - Hath woven in Sir Tho. Beaumond's by a special Return, and Manucaptors. - Humores moti, et non remoti, corpus laedunt. - Before H. IV. Time, all Writs returned into Parliament: They then would determine all our Privileges, - As now Writs of Error. - Therefere, by Statute H. IV. to be returned into the Chancery. The

Indenture, sealed, and filed, is to be the Sheriff's Return. - The Sheriff meant to serve a Turn. - Out with all that which is written upon the Back - Writ; - and to write upon it, Executio istius Brevis patet in quibusdam Indenturis huic brevi annex.

Abuses in Fleete Prison.

The Warden of the Fleete to be called in.

Mr. Price delivereth in a Petition against him, by Sir Wm. Aprice.

Kenny, admitted in, - inform against the Warden of the Fleete. - Locking Men up; keeping their Children from them, and Meat; making many of them lie in One little Room, more like Dogs than Men. -

Relateth strange barbarous Usage of himself. - After he had paid his Debts, and paid for his Lodging, 22 Months imprisoned, oft close Prisoner. -

Demandeth for Meat brought in, sometime more than the Meat worth. - 2s. 4d. of every one, where Ten thus laid in One Chamber. - Taketh away their Bedding: Cutteth their Cords. -

A Dungeon, that had a Window, for others to advise, or help, them: This Man, within Two Years, hath stopped up this Window, and made it so much higher, they can see no Light. Two have lien there 140 Nights, without Bed : - Bolton's Ward. - These in upon meane Process. -

Ruckwood, and his Son, barbarously stricken down. - 40 or 501. - Chamberlayne's Oppressions.

All this, and as much more as he can, to be set down in Writing, - all their just Complaints; - and present it to the House upon Monday Morning next: Their Witnesses to be set down; and nothing to be set down but Truth.

Mr. Secretary: - That the Person of the Warden of the Fleete may be secured, that he slip not away.

Mr. Alford: - To have him, by no Means, return to the Fleete, to practise with the Prisoners.

Sir Jo. Strangewayes; - That Mr. Chamberlayne may, at his own Charge, have an Habeas Corpus, to attend the Committee on Monday.

Sir Tho. Germyn: - To have Kenny examined, whether he ever made any Complaint to any; and to whom.

Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy, accordingly.

Sir H. Poole: - To have some few of this House authorized to go into the Fleete.

Mr. Treasurer: - That, upon Complaint, some of the Privy Council went into the Fleete, and examined the Business: That, before they had done, a Commission, under the Great Seal, awarded : A Judgment after in it.

Mr. Mallett: - Present at the Judgment mentioned by Mr. Treasurer: Which Action brought for taking 2d. a Dish. - That he grounded himself upon Old Orders, 1o Eliz. which gave him Liberty to take the same; and brought in one Brian, his Man, who testified, that Fee had anciently been taken : Whereupon a Verdict passed for the Warden of the Fleete, much to the Dislike of the Lord Chief Justice, before whom tried; who gave him Order, that Verdict notwithstanding, to take it no more.

Kennett: - That he complained to the Council: The Warden of the Fleete got the Petition: He could get no Answer. - Another to Secretary Nanton, who rebuked the Warden for it.

The Warden of the Fleete brought to the Bar, and charged by Mr. Speaker with the Premises. - Worse than the Inquisition of Spayne, or Gallies among the Turkes -

Demanded, how many Prisoners he lodgeth in One Chamber: -

In the Tower Chamber (which are Three) Fourteen, or Sixteen. -

In other Chambers; Eight, Six, or Five; for whose Fees 2s. 4d. a Week, if Two in a Bed. - That Bonds to be given in by all, for Fees, and due Imprisonment. -

That took away their Beds, because they barricaded against them therewith. -

Never took but 22d. for 2d. a Dish; which justified, and cleared by Verdict. -

For Bolton's Ward, where Harvy and Coppyn now lie; confesseth the Taking down the Window, and making another higher. -

That he never denied Harvy, or any other, a Bed. That Harvy in Execution for Debt. -

Denieth he ever maketh any close Prisoners, without Authority.

Mr. Wrenham: - That he made Sir Francis Inglefeild close Prisoner Five Weeks. - To demand, by what Authority. - He said, by Commandment from my Lord Chancellor; and, he thinketh, by an Order.

Mr. Secretary: - To have this Man detained, because but a Farmer, and his Term almost expired; and some Committees to be appointed to go to the Fleete, and examine these Things.

Sir H. Widdrington, accordant.

Mr. Treasurer: - If restrain the Warden, then to take order for Security of the Prison.

Sir Edw. Coke: - This Prison the King's; but the Custody an Inheritance in the Subject.

Eldred and Lillo to be sent unto, to look to the Prison, at their Perils, during the Restraint of Harrys.

Mr. Drake, - for the Commitment of Harrys; but he to be brought Face to Face, with the Prisoners to the Committee.

Mr. Brooke, - against his Commitment ; because, accused only, nothing proved against him.

Sir Wm. Strode. - against it: So Mr. Solicitor; because he a Lessee, and hath the Custody of the Fleete.

Sir Edw. Mountague, accordant.

He to be here again on Monday Morning ; and they to be admonished to use themselves well in the mean time.

Sir A. Ingram, Sir H. Poole, Sir Jo. Strangwayes, Sir Edw. Sackvyle, Mr. Drake, Mr. Price, Sir H. Withrington, Sir Ro. Phillippes, to go to the Fleete this

Af ternoon, after they have attended the King; and the Warden to be required not to go thither in the mean time.

The Prince's Tenants.

L. 1. AN Act for the Settling and Confirmation of the Customs of the Customary Tenants of the Prince, in his Lands, called Richmond Fee, and Marquis Fee, within the Barony of Kendall in Com' Westmorland.

Welsh Cloths, &c.

L. 1. An Act for the free Trade and Traffick of Welch Cloths, Cottons, Freezes, Lynings, and Playnes, in and through the Kingdom of England, &c.

Deligne's Nat.

L. 1. An Act for the Naturalization of Sir S. Deligne.

Supersedeas.

Sir H. Poole reporteth the Bill for Supersedeas, with the Amendments; which twice read; and ordered to be ingrossed.

Tythes for Fishing.

L. 2. An Act to suppress the Taking of Tythes for Fishing Voyages. -

Mr. Denny: - That this Bill too general; for taketh away an Act of Parliament, 2 Ed. VI, and Custom. That most of the Tythes which maintain the Ministers of the Coast Towns, consist of Tythes from Fishing beyond the Seas, and out of the Wages of Mariners. That this will overthrow the Maintenance of Ministers there. -

The Act 2o Ed. VI. appointed Payment of personal Tythes, as by Custom 40 Years before. -

Mr. Carvyle - The Tythe of all Fish within the River of Tyne; which hath been appropriated for 300 Years, and is now granted in Fee-farm.

Sir Edw. Gyles, accordant: - And desireth nothing, but only Provision for the Fishing at the New-found-land. -

Setteth forth the Benefit of that Fishing, for Increase of Mariners. - Carry nothing hence, but Victual: - Their Return great. - In the West Part, Extortions of Tything, where no ancient Usage. - Can prove the Suggestions of the Bill, for Exactions, Excommunication, &c.

The Woolls of England, the Mine of this Kingdom: Now not half the Cloths exported, which heretofore. -

Pretermitted Custom, &c. - Will not meddle with the Right; but as it hindereth the King's Profit, and burtheneth the Subject. -

We in hand, first to sweep the House of Monopolies,

and Patents, with Proclamations, &c.

2. To see how the Want of Money groweth.

3. To beautify the Kingdom; as, particularly, with the Bills of Grace.

Sir H. Poole: - That much of our Coin transported into Scotland. - Not to hinder Consolidation of both Kingdoms; but to have a care, that our Money, being there, may not be transported from thence.

Sir D. Digges: - That One of the East India Company. That, for the Ceasing of the Mint, sithence the East India Company established; that the Reason of it, the want of a true Proportion and Valuation between the Mint here, and beyond Sea. In H. VII. a Tax of the Mint through all Countries in Christendom. - That this fittest for a Committee, where Men may go by Degrees.

Master of the Wards: - Speaketh upon Knowlege. Offereth a Way of Satisfaction, not by Dispute, but by Record. - A Want of Money: Trade sick. - To have One of the Day for Grievances, particularly for Trade. - The Customers Books will shew it. - By them to see what the East India - have imported and exported; for what have not carried out in Commodity, must needs be in Money. - The Impost upon the French Wines. - Three times as much Wine now imported, as then; and export not a third of what we did. -

For Ireland; will help, a direct Note, what hath been imported into England out of Ireland, for a Year or Two last past.

Moveth, One special Day for the Decay of Trade.

Sir Edw. Gyles: - That the East Indya Company, if carrieth not out of England, yet meeteth Spanish Money by the Way: Now no Spanish Money brought in. Much Corn imported to London, and other Parts, and sold there. 100,000l. per Annum, many Years, bestowed for Corn in Devonshyre. That more Irish Beef, and other Provisions, in the West Parts, than of English.

Sir Tho. Row: - That One of the East India Company. That the East India Company carrieth not out of Europe 30,000l. per Annum, Money Merchandize. - A due Proportion ought to be between Gold and Silver. The Standard of Silver not alike here with other Countries. The Dutch raise and fall their Money, at their Pleasure. Any, that shall bring in Money here, shall lose Eight per Cent.

Sir Wm. Cope: - Two Causes of Emptiness: One a Leak, where it may run out. - That 12 Millions brought in, in the Queen's Time, by Gentlemen of Worth; [which] the Spring that furnished the Kingdom -

That, if we have not some Means to fetch in Money, doubteth, all the rest will not do it. -

That Ambassadors, bringing in no Money hither, peradventure carry out great Quantities, both of Gold and Silver.

Sir Ro. Phillippes moveth for a set Time for this Business; and for Merchants, and Custom Books, to be sent for.

Mr. Bateman, an East India Merchant, moveth, the East India Books may also be viewed.

Sir Charles Mountague: - To have the East India Merchants carry out [no] Spanish Money, but only English. - That One [Merchant], viz. ...... carrieth out yearly

70,000 l. per [Annum] - 8s. 6d. Difference in the Value of our Gold and Silver. - To have these considered of.

Sir Tho. Lowe: - That little Corn now imported; but, to restrain it totally, may be dangerous, for a Dearth.

Sir Wm. Strowde: - That a Question about this in the first Parliament Jac. - 100,000l. per Annum for Lawns, and Cobweb Lawn. - Is against the Restraint of the Importation of Corn, - England hath never Two Years Provision before-hand. The Farmers Estate will not suffer it.

Sir Tho. Wentworth moveth, this Business may be treated of, Tuesday and Thursday; and the Committee for Privileges, which is particular, in another Place.

Mr. Brooke, accordant: - And the Grand Committee to appoint a Sub-committee, to consider of Matter of Trade. - To see the Custom Books. - Not to have the

East India Books sent for in: - And this to be upon Thursday next.

This Consideration, for Money, to be referred to the Grand Committee of the whole House: - Every Tuesday to be the Day; and to begin To-morrow. The Committee to give some Direction for perusing the Custom Books, and any other Books they shall think fit; and all Merchants, and others, to be sent for, which the Committee shall think fit may inform them.

Subsidy.

Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer: - That both the Preamble and Body of the Bill, for Subsidy, may be referred.

Ring Lottery.

Master of the Wards reporteth from the King; That he never liked the Ring Lottery; ever suspected it: Yielded, because he was informed, the Plantation of Virginia could not subsist without it: Will now suspend it, and revoke it quite, if shall be found here a Grievance.

Master of the Wards to return Thanks to his Majesty, and to intreat him to take some present Course in this.

Westminster Election.

Sir Tho. Ireland and Mr. Holt, Counsel at the Bar, for Mr. Manne's Election.

Sir Edw. Coke: - That the Committee of Opinion, that the Opinion [a] of Mr. Mann void: therefore the Counsel now to make good the Election.

Sir Edw. Wardor: - That, if the House shall not be satisfied, then they will have Counsel.

Sir Tho. Ireland, pro Mr. Manne's, Election, - The Question, whether the Writ so perfected by the Election of Mr. Dowbleday, and Indentures of it, sealed, but not returned to the Sheriff, nor by him into the Chancery : -

That the Election, but the Inception ; the Consummation, the Return to the Sheriff, and from him to the Chancery. No full Election, till the Return; for could not come to treat here. -

Difference between Venire facias, where the Names not mentioned. Upon an Habeas corpora, may return them which are dead; because may be supplied by tales.

Mr. Holt: - The Case rare: The Question never searched into before. - An abortive Execution. - The Writ Three Parts: Eligi facias; retornari facias; -

Two Ita quods; which must be supplied.

Mr. Speaker interrogateth Sir Tho. Ireland, what, if the Election had been returned to the Sheriff; who answereth, then the Sheriff had been bound to return it.

Mr. Mallett agreeth, every Election must be free and absolute. - That the first Indenture may be avoided by a second Writ. - 36 H. VIII. Trewynnard's Case. - No new Writ.

Mr. Hackwyll, - against the Election of Mr. Mann. - That the Election perfected by their Consents appearing. - A Man can elect but once: The Statute of 23 H. VI. against it. - The Reason, that maketh most for the Security, Honour, and Power of this House, is best to be accepted. - Then may put him out again, that is once chosen. - A Man elected, and after called to the Upper House, or chosen a Judge, they cannot chuse again.

Mr. Serjeant Towse, - for the Election.

Mr. Glanvyle: - In doubt of the Law herein. - Two Points: 1. The Inconvenience the Sheriff may receive by his Return : 2ly, The Prejudice this House may receive by this Precedent. - The Sheriff may be punished, both by the Party grieved, and by this House. - No Inconvenience here, because no Practice in any; but by the Act of God. - Relation here, by this Death, as if never any had been chosen. - Moveth for some further Respite, to advise.

Mr. Crew: - This a new Case, without Book or Precedent. - That we have never questioned any Return, where no Abuse, or Practice. - Not to do it ex officio.

Sir Edw. Coke : - Rather praeparatas, than properatas, meditationes. - The King's Writ of Record. No Man a Burgess, till return of Record. -

7 R. II. a Baron called by Writ to a Parliament (till then, all called by Writ) he died, before he came to the House: Questioned, whether he a Baron, or not: Resolved, no; nor his Son a Baron; because the Writ not returned, nor he sat in Parliament. The Election, but an Inception; the Indentures, Progression; Return, the Consummation. -

Where a Man executeth but Part of his Authority, there he may execute his Power again. -

De Coronatore eligendo: - One chosen, and dieth before Return; they may chuse another by that Writ. -

No removing any Member of this House, but where Practice, or Abuse. - To advise.

Master of the Wards : - To hear no more of it.

Sir Geor. Moore: - That the Complaint was by many Inhabitants; and that double; of Matter in Law, and Matter of Fact. The Matter of Fact to be reserved, to be further examined.

Mr. Pye: - That Westmynster-hall full that Day of the Election of Mr. Mann. - For Mr. Manne's Election.

Sir Wm. Herricke, accordant.

Sir Edw. Wardor, contra. - That the Dean refused to number them by the Poll.

Sir A. Ingram, - for Mr. Manne's Election.

Master of the Rolls : - Not to trouble ourselves longer with it.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - To defer it.

Leave of Absence.

Sir Francis Seymour licensed to go into the Country for a few Days; and then to return.