House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 04 May 1621

Veneris, 4 Maii

Butter, &c. Trade.

L. 1a. AN Act for Explanation of the Statutes made 3, 4, and 5 Ed. VI. concerning the Traders of Butter and Cheese.

Hickes' Decree.

L. 1a. An Act to make void a Decree made in Chancery, wherein Joha. Smyth, and others, were Plaintiffs, Decree, against Sir Bap. Hickes, for 914 l. and 10s.

Payne's Nat.

L. 1a. An Act for the Naturalizing of Ro. Payne, Gentleman, Son of Wm. Payne, Merchant, of London.

Fletton.

Fletton.

L. 2a. An Act to make - Sir Edw. Mountagew - To put in his Title of Knight of the Bath.

Committed to Sir Ro. Bevyll, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Edw. Sackvyle, Mr. Davy, Mr. Drake, Mr. Baily, Sir. Nich. Carye, Mr. Chidleighe, Sir Wm. Strowde, Mr. Fetherston, Sir Alexander St. John, Sir Tho. Holland, Mr. Wyld, Knights and Burgesses of Huntingdon and Bedford: - Monday next, Exchequer Court.

Sackvyle College.

Sackvyle College.

L. 2a. An Act for the Founding of a Sackvyle College, or Hospital, in East Grinstead, in Com' Sussex, &c. -

Sir Edw. Sackvyle; - That the Committees take Care, that none of the entailed Lands be meddled with : And not, " College," but, " Hospital."

Mr. Alford ; - To take Care, that the Payment here be quarterly, according to the Will: -

Committed to Knights and Burgesses of Sussex and Kent, Mr. Alford, Sir Edw. Mountague, Mr. Brooke, Mr. Mallett, Mr. Wentworth, Sir Tho. Gresham, Serjeant Towse, Mr. Carvyle, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Tho. Low, Mr. Cooke, Sir Tho. Hobby: - Monday next, Exchequer Court.

Magdalen College.

Mr. Dr. Gooch tendereth a Petition, concerning Magdalen College.

Mr. Mallett : - This a particular Case. - To come by Bill, if Cause.

Mr. Noy, accordant. Mr. Wentworth, contra: - To be heard here.

Sir Edw. Coke : - That, being but a Master of the College, he may be heard ; and in his own Case being a Member of the House. - That, in Sutton's Case, he being a Governor, yet, by the Judgment of the Judges, he was heard to argue.

Resolved, He shall put in his Bill, and then to be heard in that Course.

Recusants.

L. 2a. - Recusants. -

Sir Edw. Gyles : - Doubteth, if no good Provision against Popery, the Weeds will overthrow the Corn. - No Way to help it, so well, as the good Education of their Children. - The Decay of the King's Revenue out of their Lands, another Cause. - 600l. per Annum found at 20 Marks. - The Clerks of the Assise, in all Counties, to be called to account for the King's Revenue. -

House to sit.

Sir Ro. Hitcham and Sir Wm. Byrd bring a Message from the Lords ; That they desire, the House will sit in the Afternoon, because, it is very likely, they shall send us a Message. - Resolved.

Sir J. Perrott, contra : - Because, upon like Cause, did sit last Day, without Fruit.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Great Cause for that by intervenient Occasions, - To avoid all Distaste.

Resolved, The Speaker shall be here in the Afternoon. snd sit by, till Occasion, that the Committee for Grievances may, in the Interims, proceed ; divers, with their Counsel, now being appointed. -

Recusants.

Sir Tho. Hobby: - That all Men Dispositions to bring Men to Church. - To set open our Church Doors to them.

- Hath known 80 in one Place conform in one Year. -

Fees for Excommunications : - 10l. Charge, for Discharge, in the Exchequer : These Stops to many.

Sir Edw. Coke : - Not to have a double Penalty for coming to Mass. - A Submission, but gratis.

Sir H. Poole : - Wisheth so well to the Bill, as wisheth it reasonable. - That a Month's Absence may make a good Protestant a convicted Recusant. - Against the Master his delivering in the Name of the Recusant in his House ; where, peradventure, he knoweth not his right Name.

Sir Jo. Strangwayes: - Good to debate these Things here ; for many now here, which will not be at the Committee. - Against the total Exclusion, upon Relapse. Mr. Carvyle: - To explain, whether the Husband shall pay the 12d. forfeited by the Wife's not coming to Church. - That divers Women will not be ruled by their Husbands, yea live from them ; and yet their Husbands enforced to pay 20 l. a Month.

Sir Edw. Sands: - The Debate of these Businesses, of Weight, ever allowed and desired in open House; for that a great Direction to the Committee. The main End of this Bill, to reclaim. 2ly, To weaken, if will not be reclaimed. - Two Sorts of Recusants : One, upon Conscience; the other, upon Fancy. - Want here of Provision to reclaim them. - l. To inform them : Whereof no great Hope ; because will read, nor hear any heretical Books, Sermons ; nor confer : For this, by their Religion, a Fault against the first Commandment. - That the Punishment of these, that are so upon Conscience, will not be drawn from it by Punishment. - To care therefore to prevent their seducing hereafter. - The Number of Priests and Jesuits now double for that the last Year of Queen Eliz. The beginning of Recusancy 12 Eliz. The Priests and Jesuits -

Two Engines by the Papists, to win these again to them, who had been lost,; and to keep those, that there were, theirs : 1. The Inquisition ; whereby now no Protestants, where before great Numbers : 2ly, Institution of Seminaries. - A Provision for their Maintenance ; brought up in Learning; then sent back into their several Countries, where born. -

King of Fraunce set up a Seminary at Rhemes: King of Spayne divers Seminaries in Spayne, and Two in the Low Countries; Dowa, and St. Homers. - Their Pensions, in that of St. Homers, ill paid. - There 140 Gentlemens Sons, of England; and now 20 Marks a Year out of England, for every of these there. These return, being Gentlemens Sons, of great Friends ; to whom resort ; are there entertained ; and gaining One Person of Quality, more than 20 mean ones. -

To restrain the Sending these Children, or Maintenance for them. - This striketh at Religion, and the State of the Kingdom here.

Mr. Alford: - That this propounded in the Parliament 1 Jac. and was then hindered ; by reason, there was Liberty given to the King and Privy Council, to license Children to be sent over. - To provide for this.

Mr. Raynsecrofte addeth, the great Quantities of Popish Books, ordinarily sold here.

Sir Tho. Row, - against this Motion of Popish Books, and against the Restraint of Youths going over. - To instruct them well here, that stay here.

Sir Guy Palmes desireth, Dedimus potestatem, fortaking the Oath, upon Suing of Liveries, should be directed to the Justices of Assise, and Justices of Peace; and be taken there in open Assises, or Quarter Sessions.

Sir D. Digges : - That many Persons, of great Quality, in the Court, and other Places, have their Sons in Dowa.

- To restrain young Youths, under Age, from going beyond Sea : Then will benefit by their Travel, and not be infected, as now they are.

Sir Edw. Wardor : That he, that marrieth a Recusant, well worthy to pay for her. -

Committed to Mr. Treasurer, Mr. Secretary, Sir Edw. Coke, Sir Edw. Cecil, Mr. Drake, Sir Guy Palmes, Sir Edw. Mountagew, Sir Edw. Gyles, Sir Geor. Moore : All, that will come, to have Voice : - On Wednesday next, in the House.

Message from the King - Punishing Floyde.

Mr. Secretary; - That the King hath commanded him to let the House know his Care about Floyde. - Thanks - to the House, for their Love to him, and his Children,

- That the King hath given Order, upon Floyde's Petition, to his learned Counsel, to examine Floyde. That the Petition was delivered by Rich. Floyde, where the King thought it had been Edw. Floyde himself. That Floyde now examined by Mr. Attorney and Solicitor, denieth it. - Will, To-morrow, give Order, to have this examined by the Lords, upon Oath ; and, if it shall be proved there, will punish it, according to our Desire ; conceiving us to have no Power of an Oath. -

That, for the Precedent 1 H. IV. the King (whereto Mr. Speaker replieth) was prepared to have given an Answer, but did forbear, in respect many there were no Members of this House.

Mr. Solicitor : - That the King, as soon as Mr. Speaker and the House gone, the King committed the Examination of Floyde to the Attorney and him. Floyde denied it. That the Attorney told him, he had denied his Scandalizing of Sir Francis Evers, till he shewed him his Hand-writing; which he again now absolutely denied. That the King, upon this Denial, the more desirous to punish him : And therefore leaveth it to the Judgment of the House, whether to insist further upon their Right of judging this Business here, or to go to the Lords in this, as we have done, in all other Business this. Session.

Jurisdiction of Parliament - Punishing Floyde.

Sir J. Perrott: - To have it considered, whether we be a Court of Record, and whether we have not Power to give an Oath.

Sir Wm. Strowde . - This no seasonable Motion now. -

To go to the Lords. - That Examination will be long, and will defer his Punishment. - To go about that now, which may best advance the Good of our Countries.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - In our Judgment as much Love to the King, and his, as ever from any House of Commons; and as much Duty, in desiring the Execution, as ever from any. - To sit down, and meddle no more in this Business.

Mr. Alford: - This House never so shaken in Judgment, as now. Our Judgment generally known. That done by us, in One Case, for the King's Issue.

Sir D. Digges, concordat with Sir Ro. Phillippes.

Sir Tho. Jermyn, accordant. - If any could maintain what we have done, would never sit down. - If that true, which we have heard here, this the greatest Court of England, and the least Power.

Sir Wm. Herberte: - We have given our Judgment: The King may stay the Execution : We cannot help that.

Mr. Mallet: - This a Court; where Law, and Discretion. The best Discretion to leave this Matter now.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: While Floyde not punished, we all suffer. No Loss of Privilege, for the Lords to concur with us in the Sentence, not to confirm ours.

Sir Geor. Moore: - Thinketh yet, they gave this Judgment juste, as well as justum; For done upon good Reason.

- An Oath not requisite in all Causes. The Matter not obscure, but plain. - Not to go to the Lords. To rest here. - For that his Majesty may stay the Execution. - Sir Edw. Cecill: - We the Sinews of the Commonwealth.

- To regard our Loyalty, and the Honour of this House. Not to go to the Lords, to move them to patch up our Faults.

Sir Tho. Row : - The Liberties of this House much shaken now. - Thinketh our Judgment rightly given, and may stand upon Record here, as our Claim. - That this cannot now come to the Lords, either with us, or without us : Not with us, without our Disgrace; nor without us, because cannot take Notice of any publick Grievance (as this) without Complaint thereof from hence.

Mr. Treasurer: Not moved, or intended we should carry this to the Lords, or consent to it; but leave the Course thereof to the King, and speak no more of it.

Mr. Secretary, accordant.

Sir H. Withrington: - Thinketh not, but we have Power to give an Oath : And, for Precedents; every Precedent had a Beginning.

Sir H. Poole : - To proceed in this by way of Bill.

Sir Edw. Gyles: - Not to wave our Right. - Thinketh in his Conscience, we have done well, and judicially. - Not to go the Lords in this Course. To leave it to the King and with the King.

Master of the Wards: - Sorry, we driven to this Strait.

- Not much Election: Cannot go back from our Judgment. We have appealed to the King ; Can go no higher. - To go no lower. - To go once again to the King, and to let him know, what we have done, hath been out of our Zeal and Love to him, and his Children. To desire him, once again, to do with us, as a Father; and not to put us over to the Lords, but himself to end.

Sir Sam. Sands : - No Member of this House ought, after a Question, to question the Power of this House. - That the Judgment given out of a great Zeal and Love to his Majesty. - To let the World know no Pique between the King and his People.

Not erroneous, nor coram non Judice. - A Court of Record : Therefore may give an Oath : Disuse loseth no Privilege. - How long have the Lords disused to give Judgments in Parliament? - The King, as Head, present here, and in all his Courts. We punish here Abuses to the Members of our House, yea, to their Servants ; much more to the King's Blood. - To enter the Judgment. - Let him bring his Writ of Error- - No Corruption in us, but by our Love to the King. - We judge many Things, without Oath : - Sheriffs, &c. pass Bills. - That we were a Court, before ever swearing upon a Book introduced. - These did swear, and protest, as deeply, and credibly, here, as could be by swearing upon a Book.

Sir Francis Seymor, and Sir Francis Fane: - To put it to the Question, whether the Judgment shall be entered, or not. - So Sir Wm. Spencer.

Mr. Smyth : - That the Earls Marshal, in this Case, upon Complaint, would have punished it; yet examine not upon Oath : - Knoweth this in his own Case.

Sir Tho. Wentworth : - That the Judgment rightly given : Execution may be stayed by the King: So hath been, of Judgments given by the Lords.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Judgment not to be stayed, for Great Seal, &c. yet where Felony, or Treason, the King may stay the Proceeding. This Judgment given for the King : For is for his Blood. Any Man may stay his own Suit, - Not to question the Judgment, - Every Man, though absent, involved in the Judgment; yea, the Judgment his, though he of a contrary Opinion. - Concors discordia. - The Judgment already entered. - The King may stay the Execution, where he only Party. - In Appeal, not to stay; in Indictment, otherwise.

Sir Tho. Wharton: - First to read the Judgment.

Mr. Solicitor : - Will not go about to dissuade them from this. - Not to do fit Things unseasonably. - That this Question grew by a Message from the King.

Sir Edw. Coke, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Mr. Noy, Mr. Alford, Sir Sam. Sands, Master of the Wards, Sir Nath. Rich, Sir Edw. Cecill, presently to retire into the Committee Chamber, and to set down, in Writing, the Judgment.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle : - That all our Proceedings may be entered here, and kept as Records.

Judgment against Michell.

SIR Ro. Hitcham and Sir Ro. Hitcham [a] bring from the Lords a Message; that they are now ready to give Judgment against Sir Francis Michell; and that they desire, Mr. Speaker and the House will presently come up, and demand Judgment.

Tuesday, - The first Cause for the Masters of the Chancery.

Judgment against Lloyde.

Commons House assembled in Parliament, did adjudge and award, that the said Edward Lloyde should be returned that Night Prisoner to the Fleete, where before he remained in Prison, and to lie that Night in a Place there, called Bolton's Ward ; and shall, the next Morning, be brought to Westminster, into the great Yard before the Door of the great Hall of Pleas, and be there set, and Stand, upon the Pillory, from Nine until Eleven of the Clock in the Forenoon, with a Paper upon his Hat; with this Inscription, in capital Letters, of these Words; " For false, malicious, and despiteful Speeches, against the King's Daughter, and her Husband ;" and from thence shall presently ride to the Exchange within the City of London, upon a Horse, without a Saddle, with his Face backwards towards the Horse Tail, holding the Tail in his Hand, with the former Paper on his Head ; and be there again set, and stand, upon the Pillory, Two Hours ; and from thence shall ride, in like Manner, to the Fleete, and there to remain until the next Friday Morning ; and, in that Morning, to ride, in like Manner, into Cheapesyde, in the City of London, and there shall be set, and stand, upon the Pillory, with the former Paper and Inscription, by the Space of Two Hours, that is, from Ten until Twelve of the Clock in the Forenoon of that Day ; and ride back to the Fleete, in like Manner as before: And that there is set and assessed upon him, a Fine of One Thousand Pounds.