House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 27 November 1621

Martis, 27o Novembris

Debate deferred.

Mr. Wyld offered to renew the Debate in the great Business Yesterday; but the House thought fit to respite it, till the House fuller.

Imprisonment.

Sir Wm. Fleetewood reporteth the Bill against Imprisonment against Magna Charta, with Amendments; which twice read. - Engrossettur.

Privilege.

Sir Pet. Haman moveth, an Account may be given, concerning the Business of Goldsmyth and Lepton against Sir Edw. Coke; and concerning Sir Edw. Sands. - Thinketh, Sir H. Spiller, who seized his Papers, can give the House some Account, for what Cause he was committed. - That the House hath sithence understood, he was committed for Parliamentary Business.

Examining Messengers.

The Committee of Privileges to examine the Messengers for the not Delivery of the Proclamations in divers Out-counties of this Kingdom.

Supply. - Palatinate.

Mr. Wyld: - To consider of the Miseries of the King's Children, and of the Indignities offered the King in his Treaties for Peace. - Great Difference between a defensive and offensive, War. That the Loss of Pompey's, Army, because he stood only upon Defence. - An Arch-enemy, whose Power and Purse hath wrought us all our Hurt. - That no Trust to be given him. Their Positions and Practice are, to break any League or Promise with us, whensoever it serveth for their Profit. - To apply our Endeavours against this common Enemy, rather than to the Particular of the Palatinate.

Mr. Treasurer - - Will not censure those, which move a Suspension of the present Aid for the Palatinate, to be a Diversion; but rather, that they intend to further it, according to their Judgments. -

To consider the present State of the Palatinate, and not to suffer that brave Army to perish, which is now there. -

That, where some think it the fittest, to fall upon the King of Spayne, by reason of the great Help the Emperor hath received from him, that this fit for a second Consultation, the King as yet not thinking fitting to apply this Medicine to the Disease, till he know, how the King of Spayne will avow these last Proceedings; he professing great Friendship to us. Mean while the King resolveth, not to lose the Benefit of this Army in the Palatinate. -

To be constant to our Declaration. - Not to plead in forma pauperis; nor to divert or hinder, the present Supply, with other Questions or Fears. - No doubt, but his Majesty will give us a gracious Answer to whatsoever we shall, in Reason, require of him.

Mr. Neale: - Hath observed here Two Points : One, By way of Doubt; the other, as a necessary Consequent to the main Business. The Doubt, against whom the Supply, now to be granted, is to be employed: 2ly, From whom it is to be raised. - Feareth our ancient, and new-reconciled, Enemies ; who hath won more with his Pistoletts, than with his Bullets. - Virtus, et dolus.

For the second Part; those Parts, wherein he liveth, most willing ; but the meaner Sort, of late, become exceeding poor ; so as they know not how to levy the last Subsidy.

- Would have the Supply from the abler Sort. - To be done by Way of Subsidy; with Direction, to rate the richer Sort high, and to spare the poorer Sort. -

The Poverty of their Country, Want of Importation of Coin. Money, imported, bought up at a higher Rate, than the Mint can yield. - To encourage the People to give. The first Subsidy paid cheerfully in hope. They still oppressed with Monopolies. - To give some Satisfaction, by Carrying down of Bills unto them.

Mr. Pymme: - To give nothing, we frustrate the King's Expectation, grounded upon our Promise - Loss of the Palatinate, Discouragement of the King's Allies and Friends, Disherison of the King's Son-in-law. -

On the other Side, to give only, - Discontent of the People, who yet not sufficiently eased of their Burthens.

- Fear of the People for Religion. -

Propoundeth a middle Way. - Three Branches: 1. That our Promise, by our Declaration. -

Three Reasons, why not now fit to conclude of Supplies, as now propounded : 1. Because, in that Kind of War, the Enemy strongest, and we weakest: 2ly, Because, in this Course propounded, we debarred from that Liberty, which in every War is allowed to Subjects; viz. to enrich themselves by the Spoil of the Goods of that People, against whom the War is: 3ly, Because the People in fear of their Security at Home by the Papists, occasioned by a Suspension, or not putting in Execution,

- against Papists. -

Moveth therefore, to have a Session; and the principal Work therein, to give; and to do this within a Day, viz. to declare, what we will give. 2ly, To petition the King, to leave it to the Parliament to provide some Course for Execution of Laws against Papists. -

Moveth, an Oath of Association to be devised, for Defence of the King's Person, Religion, &c. and this to be taken by all, before they be admitted to any Places of Government in the Commonwealth : Then to expedite the Bills, of most Necessity; and to have a short Bill to continue the rest, both publick and private, in statu quo nunc, till the King call us again; which, thinketh, will not be long.

Sir Rich. Gravenor: - Religion, the Miseries of the King's Children, and the almost irrecoverable Loss of their Patrimony, sufficient Motives to draw a present Supply. - Quid faciendum, et quomodo ? The Palatinate of Necessity to be relieved ; and must of Necessity, be now by War.

- Is for a diversive War. - A War only there, as much desired by our Enemies as us; for will but consume our best Men, and Treasure. - That the Strings of the King's Purse feed those bloody Streams which are now in

Germany. - Never parted with any thing [he] got. - Naples, Navarre, &c.

How poor soever our Country be, if the King please to ease our Grievances, and to declare our Enemy, - To do this by Subsidy.

Sir J. Perrott: - An sit: Quid sit. - If any thing now to be given, hopeth every Man mindeth to give. - Not now to make a new Declaration, that we will give: That is actum agere. - Agreeth for the Oath of Association. - To petition the King, 1. For Maintenance of Religion here, and for the Execution of the Law against Jesuits, Papists, &c.

2ly, For Supply of Arms, Munition, and Shipping. - Merchant Ships, though many, yet much abroad. 3ly, For a general and liberal Pardon. 4ly, That, if his Majesty hath conceived any Displeasure against any Member of this House, for free Speaking here, he would be pleased to remit it. - For this to have a Committee. - To consult, what to give; and of a Proportion, both for Men, and Money, for a War. This to be done by some Soldiers of this House. - To pass some special Bills.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - For the Question, who is the Enemy; doubteth, the King would have given no Answer, because as yet he knoweth not: But thinketh, if we hinder it not ourselves, we may make him our Enemy, whom we all desire, and to prevent him of Money, &c. - No Danger to make a Precedent of a new Supply. - No new Gift, without a like Occasion hereafter. - The Country not so poor, as made. - Not too much to proclaim it, for rejoicing the Enemy, and discouraging our Friends. - That, if the Spanyard shall hereafter assist the Armies in the Palatinate, he our Enemy,

Sir Tho. Wentworth: - The Dangers of Religion abroad cause us to desire to secure it at Home. The King's Power, and Esteem, the chief Protection of it at Home and abroad - That we have begun a Sweetening of Differences between the King and us. - Desireth to further this. -

The King and his People to be considered jointly, and not apart; for that the End of our Meeting. -

The King's Propositions double: - 1. For a present Supply, to maintain Count Mansfeild's Army: 2ly, For Means for a future War, if he shall see it fit. -

The People's Propositions; the End of a Session before Christmas, and a Meeting again the 8th of February. -

Four Degrees of Proceeding here: 1. To give a present Supply for the Army in the Palatinate. 2ly, A Request to the King, by some of the Privy Council, for an End of a Session before Christmas. 3ly,The Proportion of the present Supply, and the Manner, as may add most Reputation to his Majesty's Endeavours abroad. 4ly, Where War and Peace in the King's Hand, to declare, that we will be ready, in a Cause concerning Religion and the Commonwealth, we will be ready to second him.

Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer: - Variety of Propositions these Two Days, tending to One End : - Religion: His Majesty, and his Children: Settling Religion at Home: A Diversive War: The discovering of an Enemy. - All these Propositions fit for this great Council in their due Time. Now a present Course for War, the King having sought Peace by all possible Means. - Remembereth our Declaration, and Desire to his Majesty, not long to continue the Treaty.

For foreign Matters: 1. A War of Diversion : - The Benefit thereof, by Experience, great; and must needs follow, if the War hold. 2ly, Drawing of Friends to us, abroad ; which cannot be done, without Hopes given them from hence.

Mr. Solicitor : - That in a Question, concerning debateable Lands, between England and Scotland, the King of England said, rather War, than lose a Foot of debateable Land. - Not to rest only upon the strange Army in the Palatinate. - That the King of Spayne equivocateth with us. - Fair Words, ill Deeds. - To strike at the Root: - To send Ships abroad, to take away his West India Treasure.

Mr. Solicitor: - To grow to a Conclusion. To resolve, 1. Whether to give : 2ly, What to give. For the First, no Question: Need no Arguments to persuade. - First to put that to the Question. In the second, so many Things considerable, as fit for a Committee, to recollect the Substance of what hath been said, and to give an Account thereof to the House. - Then to advise with the Lords, by way of Conference; and, from both Houses, to represent all these Things to his Majesty.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Wisheth he had now no Vote; yet would not wish no Voice. - Hath a Book in his Hand, made, as he saith, by an Englishman, turned Romish, and Hispanilized, so as hath a Spanish Heart, written from Parys to a Friend in England. - Will not meddle with the King of Spayne, except se defendendo; then may do if by the Law of Nations. - Private Men must speak reverently of Princes. - That this Book extolleth the King of Spayne, and dishonoureth Queen Eliz. and Religion. - Will answer this Book. - 1. That the Laws against Jesuits, &c. are most just and merciful. 2ly, That God hath miraculously preserved Queen Eliz. and our King. 3ly, The Means how to secure Religion, so as all the Fiends of Hell cannot prevail against it. -

First, 12d. forfeited for Absence every Sunday and. Holiday, 1o Eliz. - 2 Eliz. Pius Quintus sent to her; promising, se rescissurum the Divorce of her Mother; 2ly, confirmaturum the Book of Common Prayer, which he found good and godly ; 3ly, permissurum the Use of the Sacrament in both Kinds ; but all this, with a Condition, that the Pope should be acknowleged supreme Head. -

No Recusant from 1o till 12 Eliz. but 11 Eliz. among many Beasts, sent One Bull to excommunicate, and curse her, and all that obeyed her. Then Recusants. Bulls Flesh begetteth Hornets; therefore called Tauri. - That the Queen might have hanged them, because this Bull the Ground of their Recusancy. - The Rebellion in Yorkeshyre, upon this Bull.

13 Eliz. a Law against Bulls, which but the Common Law. Upon this Bull, many sent for Execution of it. Now the Papists miserable; cursed, if disobeyed the Pope; hanged, if the Queen. A Dispensation with the Bull procured by Campion,till they might excuse it with Ease. -

23o Eliz. a Law of 20 l. per Annum against Recusants. -

26 Eliz. Wm. Parry set on by the Jesuits, and the Pope himself. - Hath seen him alone with the Queen, with a Stilletto in his Pocket; yet God protected her. - Hereupon a Law against Priests, made by the Pope, that came hither. -

The great Armado of Spayne occasioned by the Jesuits ; who, as confessed, aimed to make himself the Monarch of all the World. - In Treaty with us, when our Ships in Fight with theirs. - Never any Treachery against us by the Papists, but a Book preceded, to take heed of Treaties of Peace. - The Sacrament taken by Three, set on by the Spanish Faction to kill the Queen. - Then went about to poison the Queen, by Lopuz; whom he hath seen standing before the Queen, when she asleep after Dinner. Another Book preceded that Treason. -

36o Eliz. William's and Yorke's Treason; Creswell, Holt, and Archer, Inciters.

39 Eliz. Squyre, to poison her Saddle, sent from Creswell. -

43o Eliz. Wynter, &c. sent from all the Catholiques, to procure the King of Spayne to make another Invasion. - That the Spaniards ever beaten in War by the English. -

That the first Plague, that ever came to our Sheep, came by a Spanish Sheep. - Spanish Pox. - If a Sheep so dangerous, Domine, libera me a malo. -

Chr. Wright sent from the Papists here, to the King of Spayne, for a new Invasion. - A Conspiracy against the King, 1o Jac. - The Powder Treason. -

Sorry to hear of the common Access to Mass of our Spanish Ambassadors - The Trojan Horse. - They have Spanish Hearts. Five Spanish Armies;- - Feareth, we are now not in Safety. - Spayne aimeth to be Monarch of all the Christian World. - .

Nothing can do us Hurt, as long as we constant in our Religion. -

Quid faciendum ? - To hold our King's Favour to us, and we our Duty and Obedience to him. - Necessitas lex temporis. - Would have no Question. Knoweth not yet the Necessity. - To go on with our Bills. - That the sudden Pressing of Supply now can do no good. - To have both go Arm in Arm together.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - They most protected by God, that most rely upon him. Three Blessings upon us: 1. Preservation of our King in Scotland. 2. Our Preservation in 88. 3. From the Powder Plot: Which being in this Month, ought to remember us to be thankful and careful. - Now the Time to put cor populi in oculis Regis.

- More Danger in Treaties than in open Hostility. All the Sp. Treaties, for advancing the Romish Religion. Rome our implacable Adversary. Spayne the Pope's dearest Child: Involved together. - To prevent Dangers of Religion. - Prayeth God, to remove the politique blazing Star, which hath long hung over us. - Agreeth with Sir Edw. Coke, not to put it to the Question. - They, which speak of a War with Spayne, speak not seasonably. - What to be done, to keep Count Mansfeild's Army from disbanding. - If a Subsidy be granted, how can it be presently collected? -

Moveth, a Committee, to consider, how Money may be got, to keep Count Mansfeild's Army together, till our next Meeting.

Mr. Alford concurreth for no Question : - For it may be brought so clearly, and honourably, as no Voice against it. -

No practice against the King, that he knoweth, sithence the Powder Treason. -

Moveth, to forbear the Question now.

Serjeant Ashley: Inclineth to a diversive War. - To spare the Question of giving, or not giving. - When, in what Manner, and what, to give. - To give presently, in respect of the present Necessity. - Bills, and Supply, to go hand in hand together. - To give by Subsidy. - To give,

for the present. One Subsidy, and Two Fifteens, to be paid after those * *; and to put this to the Question.

Master of the Rolls : - Not to make a Question of giving. - Agreeth for a Committee : - That the Way to come to Execution. - That this Committee may consider, what to give, and how.

Sir Wm. Strowde: - Hopeth, none will refuse to give, in this Case, but popish Hearts, who refused to give in the first Contribution. - A Committee.

Sir Nath. Rich: - First to lay Grounds for our Giving.

- We not bound by our Declaration; wherein Two Parts; Religion in general, and Compassion of the King's Children in particular. The main Scope, the general of Religion ; whereof the Palatinate but a Branch. -

Before any Question of Supply, to acquaint the King with our Proceedings and Intentions. -

Moveth, a Motion to the King for a publick Fast; which the first Part of our Declaration. 2ly, To represent to his Majesty our Desires to re-unite to us the Protestant Princes abroad. - To confirm this Union by Act of Parliament (a Precedent whereof in H. IV. Time) and to give the King Notice of the Desires of the House, concerning Religion here. - A Committee for this.

Mr. Finch: - Taketh it pro confesso, that now we past all Hopes of Peace. Now a War: What War, questioned. - Will not now meddle with the diversive War. - Though our Declaration general, for Religion, yet particular, for the Palatinate. - Resolved, we will give: When, the Question. - Not to put it to the Question now. To go hand in hand with this, and the Business of the House. - Now the King's Mediatorship for Peace gone, which the Cause of the Suspension of the Laws against the Papists, now to pray the Execution of it.

Sir D. Digges: - That the first Part of our Declaration, the King's Children. - A Committee.

Sir Geor. Moore .- - When, 27 Eliz. the Question here, about entertaining the Sovereignty of the Low Countries, and Two Subsidies propounded, Sir W. Mildmay, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, stuck at it. A Committee of the whole House then appointed.

A Resolution then, to give ; and this at the Beginning of the Parliament. - A Committee of the whole House.

Mr. Towerson: - Great Difference between Maintaining of an Army in the Palatinate, and sending an Army thither. Reason to do it speedily. Great Difficulty for the Conveying this Money by Bills of Exchange; for which cannot be less than Two Months Time. - Moveth, -

Sir Wm. Cope : - That no Money, in a parliamentary Course, can be paid till June, or August, because One Payment of the last Subsidy to come in May.

Sir Guy Palmes: - To go on in a parliamentary Course, To go on with our Bills, Pardon, &c. - After, will give, as others will.

Sir Francis Seymor: - A Supply necessary for Count Mansfeild's Army : - A Committee, to consider what fit. Bills as necessary : - To have this Committee consider, what Bills fit to go hand in hand with the Supply.

Mr. Mallory: - No One hath intimated a negative Voice to giving. - But to have Bills pass now, though we neither capitulate nor contract.

Sir Francis Goodwynn : - Doubtful of ending the Session now. - A Committee, to consider of the Supply ; and to recollect the Propositions made in the House; and, whether fit to have an End of a Session now.

Sir H. Poole: - A Committee, from Nine of the Clock, to Four To-morrow in the Afternoon. Mr. Speaker to be present, and take the Chair, when Occasion.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - A select Committee, to consider of the State of Religion here.

Resolved, A Committee of the whole House, to consider, 1. Touching the State of Religion, and for a Petition to his Majesty, for Execution of Laws against Jesuits, Papists, &c. 2. Of what Supply fit, for the present, for the Palatinate, when, and of the Manner. 3. And for a Petition to his Majesty, for passing Bills, and making an End of this Session before Christmas. A Committee, from Nine to Four.