House of Commons Journal Volume 10: 16 July 1689

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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Citation:

'House of Commons Journal Volume 10: 16 July 1689', in Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693( London, 1802), British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/commons-jrnl/vol10/pp221-224 [accessed 22 July 2024].

'House of Commons Journal Volume 10: 16 July 1689', in Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693( London, 1802), British History Online, accessed July 22, 2024, https://www.british-history.ac.uk/commons-jrnl/vol10/pp221-224.

"House of Commons Journal Volume 10: 16 July 1689". Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. (London, 1802), , British History Online. Web. 22 July 2024. https://www.british-history.ac.uk/commons-jrnl/vol10/pp221-224.

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In this section

Martis, 16 die Julii; 1°ulielmi et Mariæ.

Prayers.

Army Arrears.

A PETITION of the Officers, Innkeepers, and Clothiers, &c. that served in, quartered, and cloathed the Army, raised by an Act of Parliament in 1677, and disbanded by another Act in 1679, was read; setting forth, That the Petitioners presented to this House a Petition of the Officers, Innkeepers, and Clothiers, that served, quartered, and cloathed the Army disbanded in 1679: Upon which Petition, the House ordered a Committee to inspect the Accompts; and report the same to the House: And the Petitioners being informed, That the Committee had made their Report; and praying the Consideration of their Condition, and to settle some Fund for their speedy Relief;

Then the House took into Consideration the Report formerly made from the Committee appointed to examine the Matter of Fact of the said Petitioners said former Petition; which was read the Sixth Day of May last; and to state and report the same to the House, with their Opinion thereupon: And the same was read; whereby it appeared, That the Account of the Money, given by the Act for the Service aforesaid, according to Certificate from the honourable Sir Robert Howard, Knight, appears to be as followeth:

£. s. d.
THE Sum granted by the said Act, for disbanding the Army, is 206,462 17 3
There was lent upon the Credit thereof £ 124,955. - -
Whereof £. s. d.
There was paid to Sir Thomas Player, one of the said Commissioners, for and towards disbanding the said Forces 100,000 - - 124,955. - -
To Lemuell Kingdom, Esquire, for the like Service 22,311 15 9
And for Interest of Loans made by the City 2,643 4 3
The Orders registered on the said Act, amount to the Sum of Viz. 230,980. 14. 10.
For Re-payment of Loans 124,955 - - 230,980. 14. 10.
For to pay Quarters and Cloaths 106,025 14 10.
The Total Sum, paid into the Exchequer, of the Money arising by the said Act, is Whereof 199,867. 6. 6½.
There has been paid of Principal Money, in course upon the
Orders as they stand registered
175,972 17 1 199,867. 6. 6½.
More paid for Interest 23,882 4 4
Remains in Cash in the Exchequer 12 5
Total of the Principal Money registered on the Act, as above-mentioned 230,980 14 10
Of which Principal Money, no more has been paid than 176,590 10 10
And so the Act stands over-charged of Principal Money, besides Interest £.54,390 4 -
That there appears also, by an Account made up and signed by the Commissioners for disbanding, by them delivered to a Committee of the House of Commons, appointed to examine their Accounts in the Year 1685, to be due to several Persons for Cloaths and Accoutrements furnished to the said Forces; and is all that yet appears to be due on Account of Cloathing, over and above what is comprehended in the said Sum of Fifty-four thousand Three hundred Ninety Pounds Four Shillings, certified by Sir Robert Howard to be due upon Orders registered in the Exchequer. 7,535 19 11
That there is further due to several Commission Officers of the Army, who, by the Act, were directed to be paid no further than the last of March 1679, for their Pay, according to the Establishment from the said last of March exclusive, to the Times of disbanding the several Regiments and Companies to which they belonged £. s. d.
15,003 9 6 17,862 14 -
And to the Field Officers and Captains of Three Regiments of Horse, disbanded by Mr. Kingdon 2,859 4 6
Total remaining due for Principal Money;
By Sir Robert Howard's Certificate 54,390 4 - 79,788 17 11
To Clothiers, as before 7,535 19 11
To the Officers of the Army 17,862 14 -
Due for Interest, according to the Act, at Eight Pounds per Cent. for Pay and Quarters, computed, by Estimate for about four Years, to January 1685, according to Sir Robert Howard's Certificate 14,400 - - 28,800 - -
Due for like Interest, computed, by Estimate from January 1685 to January 1689 14,400 - -
£.108,588 17 11

That it also appeared to the Committee, That, upon stating the particular Account of each Commissioner distinctly, they wanted, at that Time, Vouchers to justify their several Payments; viz.

£. s. d.
Sir Gilbert Gerrard wanted Vouchers for 1,589 9 7
Colonel Whitley for 1,958 4
Colonel Birch for 3,233 12 2
Sir Thomas Player 3,246 17 3
And the Deputy Commissioners for upwards of 30,000 - -

That the Commissioners, for their own Accompts, gave this as the Reason of the Deficiency of their Vouchers; viz. That the Soldiers of many Companies would not trust their Officers to receive their Money for them, but would, every Man for himself, receive what was due to him; and to have taken an Acquittance from every Soldier for those small Sums which remained due, after their Landlords were paid for their Quarters, would have been very tedious, and so have increased the Charge, by keeping the Army much longer undisbanded: But, besides this, they then alleged, they had Papers which contained the Names of all such Persons as were paid after this Manner, and the Sums paid to them, which were taken by their Clerks employed in this Affair at the Times of Payment; the Truth whereof they could attest upon their Oaths: These Vouchers (though not regular) the then Committee, considering the Circumstances, seemed to approve of, and ordered the Examination thereof.

That the Vouchers produced to supply the Defects before-mentioned have been since examined; which are of the Natures following; viz. for the greatest Part of that which is charged on Sir Thomas Player, the Captains or Lieutenants of the respective Troops and Companies disbanded, and paid by the said Sir Thomas Player, have certified under their Hands, That, upon Perusal of the Accompts of their said Troops and Companies, they find them fully satisfied, and paid: For the rest of Sir Thomas Player's Charge; and for what is charged on the other Three Commissioners, as not duly vouched, they have produced their Papers taken at the Time of Disbanding, containing the Names of the Persons to whom the Payments were made, and the Sums paid; or else more general Accompts, containing the whole Money demanded by the said Commissioners in their Accompts, as paid to the respective Troops and Companies, as well what was vouched, as what was charged upon the Accomptants for want of due Vouchers: And both these attested, upon the Oaths, as well of the said Commissioners, as of such of their Clerks as are now living, and were concerned in the said Service; or by such as were acquainted with, and knew the Hands of, such as are since dead.

That these Things have been represented to the late Lord Commissioners of the Treasury; who approved of these Vouchers, and a Privy Seal is now passing, to direct the Allowance thereof upon their Accompts, and to put the Deputy Commissioners for disbanding in the Out Districts insuper on the said Accompts for the Money by them respectively received from Sir Thomas Player for service; whereby they will become accountable in the Exchequer for the said Money.

That the Committee first observe, from the State of the Account of Money given by the Act for Disbanding, That it fell very much short of answering the End for which it was given; and that a great Sum of Money, amounting to One Hundred Eight thousand Five hundred Eighty-eight Pounds Seventeen Shillings and Elevenpence, is due, as is before represented.

Secondly, By the State of the Accounts of the Commissioners for Disbanding, it appears, That the Creditors can have no Expectation of any thing from them.

That the Claims of Principal Money for Quarters, and Cloaths, and for Pay, to the last of March 1679, amounting to Fifty-four thousand Three hundred Ninety Pounds Four Shillings, appear to the Committee to be due upon Certificates, signed by one or more of the Commissioners for Disbanding, and Orders of the then Lords Commissioners of the Treasury thereupon directed to the Exchequer, where they are registered; as appears by Certificate from Sir Robert Howard.

That the Money represented to be due to Officers for Pay, is computed from the last of March 1679, to the Times to which they appear, by the Accompts of the Commissioners, to have been respectively disbanded; and the Computation made by Direction of the Committee appointed to examine the Accounts of the said Commissioners in the Year 1685; to which Committee, the Petitions of many of the said Officers, presented to the then Parliament for their said Pay, were referred.

That, besides the Debt of One Hundred Eight thousand Five hundred Eighty-eight Pounds Seventeen Shillings and Eleven Pence, before-mentioned, it appeared to the Committee, by Certificate from Sir Robert Howard, That there is One Debenture signed by Sir Thomas Player, and Sir Gilbert Gerrard, for One hundred Nine Pounds Twelve Shillings and Four Pence, due to Mr. John Lloyd, who married the Widow of Henry Goss, for Cloathing furnished by the said Gosse to the Regiment of the late Duke of Monmouth, and Captain Ferdinando Stanhope's Troop of Horse; for which Sam, no Order is yet signed by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, by reason of the Debenture is but lately brought to his Office: And that as he is informed there are many others standing out; but it does not appear to him, what the Number of them is, or how much they may amount unto.

That, as to the Case of Clothiers and Inn keepers, the Committee is humbly of Opinion, That they have been very great Sufferers by their not receiving their Money in the Time the Act seemed to give them Hopes they should; and that, for want thereof, several Families have been ruined, and the rest very much damnified.

That, as to the Case of Officers, they have been informed, and do believe, that many of them, being Gentlemen of good Families, considering the Intention of the Parliament in reference to a War against France, and in hopes they might have continued longer in Employment, parted with their Fortunes to put themselves into a Capacity to serve their Country: But the War not going forward (as was desired by the Parliament), they were not only disappointed of their Desire of serving their Country, but ruined their Fortunes also, by undertaking the said Employments.

That if it shall please this House to take the Premises into Consideration, and make Provision for Payment of the said Debt, contracted upon the Credit given to the Parliament; the Committee is further of Opinion, That it may be of great Use in this Juncture of Affairs, to their Majesties, and the Kingdom, by encouraging Persons to come into their Majesties Service, and to give Credit for the publick Service, as Occasion shall require.

Ordered, That the Report do lie upon the Table.

Resolved, That this House will take the Case of the said Officers, Innkeepers, and Clothiers, and other Persons, who served in, cloathed, and quartered the said Army, into Consideration, at the next Meeting after the Recess.

Militia.

An ingrossed Bill for rendering the Militia more useful, was read the Third time.

Some small Amendments were proposed to be made therein:

And the same were, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House; and the Bill amended accordingly at the Table.

Resolved, That the Bill do pass: And that the Title thereof be, An Act for the ordering the Forces in the several Counties of this Kingdom.

Ordered, That Colonel Birch do carry up the Bill to the Lords for their Concurrence.

Frohibiting Trade with France.

Sir Robert Clayton reports from the Committee, to whom the Bill for preventing the Importation of French Goods was referred, That they had agreed upon several Amendments to be made to the Bill: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and several of them a Second time, one by one; and agreed unto by the House.

The Amendment Folio 4, Line 9, being read a Second time;

An Amendment was offered to be made, by leaving out, "such Men as are of known Experience;" and, instead thereof, to insert "good and lawful Men, to be returned by the proper Officer; and, upon the Question, the same was agreed unto by the House.

Ordered, That the Reading the Residue of the Amendments to the said Bill be adjourned till Thursday Morning next, Ten of the Clock.

Answer to Address.

Sir Robert Howard acquaints the House, That he had attended his Majesty with the Address of Thanks of this House for his Message sent by him on Friday last; and that his Majesty received the same very graciously.

Rights of the Subject, and settling the Crown.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Miles Cooke and Sir Adam Ottley;

Mr. Speaker, We are commanded by the Lords to acquaint this House, That the Lords do desire a present Conference with this House in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference.

And then the Messengers withdrew.

Resolved, That this House do agree to a present free Conference with the Lords, as is desired.

And the Messengers were called in again: And Mr. Speaker acquainted them therewith.

Resolved, That the Committee that managed the former Conference do manage this Conference.

Then the Managers went to the Conference.

Mr. Carter reports from the Conference with the Lords, That the Earl of Rochester managed on the Part of the Lords; and said, That the Lords do insist on their Amendment in the 7 Skin, Line 25.

That in Clause A, Line 2, that they do agree to that Amendment.

That in Clause A, Line 28, that they do not agree to That Amendment.

The 8 Skin, Line 25, they do agree that the Clause beginning after "accordingly," in 25th Line of the 8th Skin, shall stand as in the Bill: And give their Reasons, Why they so disagree with this House, as follows; viz.

1. Though in the Instrument offered to the King and Queen's Majesty, the Limitation went no further than to their Persons; yet, in a Law which has respect to all succeeding Ages, and that settles for ever the Liberties of the Subjects, they think it is reasonable to carry the Limitation of the Succession of the Crown further than was necessary in that Instrument in which the Crown was offered to their Majesties, and that had no View, but of the Succession to their Posterity.

2. That they see no Danger, nor any ill Consequences, that may follow on a further Limitation; but very much to the contrary: For 1. This secures the Nation effectually from the Danger of having any Papist to reign in it at any time hereafter; since, of such a Number of Papists as stand next the Crown in the lineal Succession, some might be prevailed on to make a Shew of changing their Religion, if they had a Prospect of succeeding to the Crown upon it: And no Danger being so great, as the having one who is a pretended Protestant, but is in truth a concealed Papist, to reign over us; the most effectual Way to secure our Religion is, to declare the Succession in a Family that we know certainly is a Protestant. 2. It is the Interest of England, at present, to do Right to that great House, by limiting the Succession according to the Proviso: For, since this Limitation has been proposed, if it should now be laid aside, it would look like an Excluding of that House; which might provoke them to take Resolutions, that might be of great Prejudice to the Nation in the present Conjuncture: And since, for these Reasons, the Lords insists upon their Proviso, the same Reasons determine them likewise to insist upon that Part of the Rider which relates to it.

And the Question being put, That the House do agree with the Lords in their Amendment, 7 Skin, Line 25;

It passed in the Negative.

And the Question being put, That the House do agree with the Lords as to the Amendment in Clause A, Line 28;

It passed in the Negative.

Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee, to whom it was referred to prepare Reasons for a Conference, to prepare Reasons to be offered at a free Conference with the Lords, Why this House doth not agree with the Lords in the said Amendments: And that Sir John Trevor, Mr. Solicitor General, Sir Richard Temple, Mr. Serjeant Trenchard, Mr. Hawles, be added to the said Committee.

Duke de Schomberg takes leave of the House.

Sir Henry Capell acquaints the House, That the Duke de Schomberg desires he may have the Honour to wait upon this House; that . . he is very near his going in the Service of the Crown in the Expedition of Ireland, he would very willingly acknowledge the Care this House hath had of him, and the Fruit that he hath received of it; and take his Leave of them: That his Merit has been great, and the King has rewarded him like a King, having made him a Duke and Peer of England; and taken such Care, that he shall have Five thousand Pounds a Year settled upon him and his Heirs, in lieu of Five thousand Pounds per Ann. he has lost in France and Germany: And that it may be the better laid out in Purchase of Lands, there are Trustees named, Two of the House of Peers, and Two of the House of Commons.

And he was ordered to be called in.

And a Chair being set for him, towards the Middle of the House, he came in, and sat covered for some time, the Serjeant standing on his Right Hand with the Mace; and then rose; and uncovered, spake to the Effect following:

Mr. Speaker,

I have desired this Honour to make my just Acknowledgements, for the great Favour I received from this House; and I doubt not but to find the Effects of it by his Majesties Grace and Favour; and also to take my Leave of this honourable House, being now going for Ireland; where I shall freely expose my Life in the King's Service and Yours.

Whereupon, Mr. Speaker spake unto him, to the Effect following; viz.

My Lord,

The Services that have been done by your Grace to their Majesties, and to this Kingdom, are so great, that they can never be forgotten: I am therefore commanded, by this House, to acquaint you, that they are extremely satisfied, that his Majesty's Army is committed to your Grace's Conduct; and they doubt not, but the War will be prosecuted in such a Manner, as will fully answer all their Expectations. This House doth likewise assure your Grace, that, at what Distance soever you are, they will have a particular Regard, as much as in them lies, of whatever may concern your Grace, or the Army under your Command.

And then his Grace withdrew.

Answer to Address.

Mr. Comptroller acquaints the House, That he, with others of his Majesty's Privy Council, had attended his Majesty with the Address of this House, That his Majesty would please to give Leave that the Books of the Privy Council, and of the Treasury, in relation to the Matter of collecting the Excise and Customs between the Death of King Charles the Second, and the Time of the Parliament held in the Reign of King James the Second, may be inspected: And that his Majesty was willing they should be inspected accordingly.

Also, that his Majesty doth give Leave, that the Minute Books of the Committee for the Irish Affairs may be inspected by some Members of this House.

Sir F. Pemberton, &c. to attend.

Ordered, That Sir Francis Pemberton, and Sir Thomas Jones do attend this House upon Friday next; to answer such Matters as they were ordered to attend upon this Day.

Crown Revenue.

Ordered, That the Bill for settling the Revenue be read a Second time To-morrow Morning at Ten of the Clock.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight of the Clock.