House of Commons Journal Volume 10: 27 July 1689

Pages 241-242

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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Sabbati, 27 die Julii; 1° Gulielmi et Mariæ.


Orphans of London.

A PETITION of the Royal African Company of England, on Behalf of themselves, and other Companies of trading Merchants in London, was read; setting forth, That the Petitioners are informed a Bill is intended to pass this House, for enabling the said City to satisfy the Orphans Debts, wherein there are certain Clauses relating to the Office of Out Roper and of Tronage, or weighing at the King's Beam; which, in their Latitude, may extend to impose new Rates and Duties upon the Petitioners Goods, and be also a great Impediment to them in their publick Sales: And praying, that a Proviso may be added, for the exempting the Petitioners, and their Sales and Goods, out of the said Act: And that if it be opposed on the Behalf, of the City, that the Petitioners may be heard by their Counsel thereto.

Ordered, That the Consideration of the said Petition be referred to the Committee of the whole House, to whom the Bill for Relief of the Orphans of the City of London, is committed.

Prohibiting Trade with France.

Sir Robert Clayton reports from the Committee, to whom the Bill for preventing the Importation of French Goods, was re-committed, That the Committee had agreed upon several Amendments to be made to the Bill: Which he read in his Place, with the Coherence; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were the First time read through.

Resolved, That the said Report be now further considered.

The said Amendments, being read a Second time, one by one, were, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

Clause G was twice read; and was for John Bubb and Company, Merchants of Bristoll, to have leave to bring into any Port of England, Ten Tuns of French Wines, Fifty Tons of Salt, Three hundred and Seventy-three Ballets of Canvas, and One hundred and Fifty-five Pieces of Dowlas, that he and they brought before the Twenty-fifth Day of May last, into the Island of Guernsey, from France and Brittany; the said Bubb and Company paying the respective Duties due and payable for them; and making Oath of the Truth of the Premises before the Collector of the Customs, or chief Magistrate, where the said Goods shall happen to be imported:

And the Question being put, That the same be made Part of the Bill;

It passed in the Negative.

Clause H was twice read: Being for their Majesties, and such Person as they, under their Privy Seal, or Sign Manual, shall appoint, to hold any Correspondence, for the publick Safety and Welfare of their Majesties Kingdoms.

And a Debate arose thereupon:

And the Question being put, That the Debate be adjourned;

It passed in the Negative.

Resolved, That the Clause be made Part of the Bill.

A Clause was offered to be made Part of the Bill, That from and after the Tenth Day of August 1689, it shall not be lawful for any Person to send or receive any Letters, or draw or receive any Bills of Exchange, to, upon, or from, any Person residing within the French King's Dominions, on the Forfeiture of Two hundred Pounds for every Offence, and Imprisonment upon Conviction for Two Months: The same was twice read; and, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House, to be made Part of the Bill.

Another Clause was offered to be made Part of the Bill, For a Price to be set, at which all Red or Reddish Wine shall be sold: Which was twice read.

And a Debate arising thereupon;

Resolved, That the Clause be committed to the Committee to whom the Bill was referred.

Ordered, That Colonel Tipping, Major Vincent, Mr. Sacheverell, be added to the Committee: And they are to meet on Monday next, at Four of the Clock, in the Afternoon, in the Speaker's Chamber.

Conference desired with Lords.

Ordered, That Mr. H. Herbert do go to the Lords, to desire a free Conference upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference, touching the Amendment proposed by the Lords to be made to the Bill, for reversing Two Judgments given in the Court of King's Bench against Titus Oates, Clerk,

Leave of Absence.

Ordered, That Mr. Howard have Leave to go into the Country for his Health, for a Month.

Ordered, That Sir Henry Winchcomb have Leave to go into the Country, for Three Weeks.

Ordered, That Mr. Ellwell have Leave to go into the Country for Three Weeks.

Lords agree to Conference.

Mr. Herbert acquaints the House, That he having been, according to their Order, at the Lords, to desire a free Conference, they do agree to a free Conference, on Monday next, at Twelve of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Miles Cooke and Mr. Methwyn;

Hele's Estate.

Mr. Speaker, We are commanded by the Lords to acquaint this House, That they have passed the Bill for enabling Trustees to grant Leases of the Estate of Richard Hele, Esquire, without any Alteration.

Duty on Coffee, &c.

Also, that the Lords desire a present Conference with this House in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject Matter of the Amendments to the Bill for collecting the Duty upon Coffee, Tea, and Chocolate, at the Customhouse.

And then the Messengers withdrew.

Resolved, That this House doth agree to a Conference with the Lords, as is desired.

And the Messengers being called in again; Mr. Speaker acquainted them therewith.

Resolved, That the Committee, who managed the last Conference touching the said Amendments, do manage this Conference.

And the Managers went to the Conference accordingly.

And being returned;

Sir John Trevor reports from the Conference with the Lords, That the Managers appointed had attended: And that the Duke of Bolton and Earl of Rochester managed the Conference on the Part of the Lords: And that they said, the Lords had agreed with this House as to the Matter of the first Amendment by them proposed, and waved their Amendment: But that they insisted upon adding the Clause to the Bill; and gave their Reasons for the same, as followeth:

Reasons to be given to the Commons, at a Conference, for the Lords insisting on their Proviso to the Bill for collecting the Duties upon Coffee, Tea, and Chocolate, at the Custom-house;

The Lords are much surprised at the Assertion of the Commons, That, in all Aids given to the King by the Commons, the Rates or Tax ought not to be any way altered by the Lords, since they conceive it hath always been their undoubted Right, in case of any Aids given to the King, to lessen the Rate or Tax granted by the Commons; whereof several Precedents might be given, which, at the present, they are willing to forbear, that they may not revive old Disputes.

But as to the present Proviso now offered by the Lords, their Lordships are of Opinion, this general Point is not the Case now in Difference, it being neither an Alteration, nor Lessening of the Duty laid upon these Commodities: For what is proposed to be drawn back upon the Exportation of them, cannot be said to lessen the Rates imposed upon them. It does indeed take away so much from the King's Income; but adds much more to the Benefit of Trade; of which the Lords conceive they are equal and competent Judges: And therefore they think they are very well founded to insist on the Proviso.

And that the Duke of Bolton said further, That he hoped a good Correspondence between the Two Houses would be maintained; for that they were Englishmen, as well as the Commons.

Which Report being read at the Table;

And the Question being put, That the House do agree with the Lords in the said Amendment to add the said Clause;

It passed in the Negative, Nemine contradicente.

Resolved, That the Committee, who managed the said Conference, do prepare Reasons to be offered at a free Conference with the Lords, Why this House doth not agree with the Lords in the Amendment for adding the said Clause.

Ordered, That Mr. Finch, Mr. Hawles, Sir Hen. Capell, Mr. Grey, Sir Rob. Sawyer, be added to the said Committee: And they are to meet on Monday Morning next, at Eight of the Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber.

And then the House adjourned till Monday Morning, Nine of the Clock.