House of Commons Journal Volume 12: 27 January 1699

Veneris, 27 die Januarii;

10° Gulielmi Tertii.

Prayers.

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

THE House being acquainted, That Auditor Bridges attended;

He was called in; and presented to the House the Papers relating to the Victualling the Fleet in the Straits.

The Titles of the said Papers were read.

And the Papers are as follow; viz.

N° 1, Observations upon the Account, delivered in by Mr. Reynolds, of the Monies received in the Straits, by the Right Honourable Admiral Russell.

On the Dr. Side:

On the Cr. Side:

1st, In the General it appears, That the Dollars were calculated by the English Money; and thereby several Errors are occasioned; viz.

The Four first Articles for Money paid Mr. Reynolds, his Receipts are all in English Money, which ought to have been in Ps. 8 / 8.

It is humbly conceived, that these Goods should be charged as they cost, according to the Invoices; and if any of them are to be charged for Beer, Butter, and Cheese, that the English Money be reduced into Ps. 8 / 8;, at 5 s. per Dollar, and not at 4 s. 7 d.

6thly, There is charged, in the Account, for

Tuns. Hhs.

It is humbly conceived, that these Cask were bought with the Wine and Oil; and that there was no new Cask, nor Iron Hoops, bought, but what were in Mr. Gerrald's Accounts; which came to 5,073 Dollars, as above mentioned.

7thly, There is charged 340 Dollars, paid to Mr. Hart, a Cooper; for which there is no Receipt, as yet, produced.

8thly, There is charged for Mr. Reynolds' Salary, after the Rate of 400 l. per Annum, from the 7th June 94, to the 31st January following: The Fleet sailed from these Seas but the 6th or 7th June, and Captain Ayles arrived at Cadiz 20th December following: It is humbly offered to Consideration, whether his Salary should commence before his Arrival at Cadiz; and whether it should not end on Comm' Ayles and Mr. Bowles Arrival there; and, if in case be he allowed the Salary of 400 l. per Annum, it is conceived he ought to give an Account of the Cost and Charges of all that was bought for the Fleet.

9thly, There is charged, for Leakage of Wine, 20,867 Gallons, 4,552 Dol. 6½ Rs.; but, by the Certificates, and Papers produced, it is but 16,262; and several of the said Certificates and Papers are but by Guess.

10thly, Note, That when the Pursers are allowed 30 s. per Tun for Beer, and 4d. per Pound for Butter, they stand to all Hazard of Leakage, and no Charge to the King for Cask, or otherwise.

11thly. Mr. Reynolds hath not yet brought an Account how he hath disposed of the Monies and Provisions charged, as received by him, in the aforesaid Account.

5th February 169⁵/6

Note, Also, That the Pursers pretend an Allowance for providing of Water to drink with Wine, which will augment the Charge; and, when the Pursers have 30s. per Tun allowed for their Beer, there is no other Charge of any kind brought to the King, as before mentioned.

N° 2. Answers to the Observations made by the Commissioners of the Victualling.

On the Dr. Side:

1st The 3,500 l. received of Mr. Stevenson, before the Sailing of the Fleet, is cast into Dollars, at 58 d.; being according to the Exchange then at Barcellona, where I took up this Money.

2dly, If in the Sum of 306,136 Dollars 1½ Rl. there were 46,000 Dollar, Pillar and Mexico Money, which, you say, cost 430 Dol. Exchange, besides 423 Dol. 3 Rs. Brokerage, and Commission, with other Charges; yet the said Pillar and Mexico Dollars was paid at no greater Rate than the common Dollars (except such a Sum as was carried up the Levant, for which I am willing to pay the Primage): Therefore that Charge might have been saved.

3dly, The 46,297 Dollars 2 Rs. received at Barcelona and Alicant, is charged 58 d.; which was according to the Exchange, as I found by what I took up then for my own Use; and could have supplied the Fleet, on my own Credit, at that Rate: Therefore it should not be expected, that I would oblige either the Pursers, or the Seamen, to receive the Money at a higher Rate than it was taken up at, especially having no manner of Information, that it cost the King (fn. 1) [any thing] above what I have charged; neither had I any Reason to suspect it, knowing I could have what I pleased at that Rate.

4thly, The 1,183 Dollars Mexico Money, taken out of the Chest at Palamos, shall be likewise made you good, with the Balance of the Account now before you.

On the Credit Side:

1st, The English Money was first calculated by the Spanish; and it was thought as proper as having it in Spanish, by reason the Beer and Butter is always turned into English at 30 s. per Ton, and 4d. per Pound: As to the first Four Articles, for Money paid Mr. Tho. Reynolds, why should it not be as proper to have it in English as Spanish, since the Vouchers he has taken for the same is in English? and, at your Request, the same is turned into Spanish, as it was at first: so that, in your Account, there is both English and Spanish; and if you would have it so in his Receipt, it is soon done.

2dly, As to N° 3, and 6, there appears, in both the said Sums, to be a Mistake of 13 Dol. 7 Rs.; which I desire may be rectified, and allowed you, on the Balance: Errors in Accounts are always excepted.

3dly In N° 6, wherein is charged, by Mr. Fitzgerrald, 330 Dol. 6 Rs. for resitting Cask; as also 325 Dol. for the Costs of Iron Hoops, set on the said Casks; which amounts to less than what is charged in the Account, 12 Dol. ½ Rs. which shall be also allowed you on the Balance: And although, in N° 5, it's said in the Account, only for refitting of Cask; yet the said Cask could not be made fit for Service without the Iron Hoops; and, it is plain to be seen, they belong both to one Article, altho' not so expressed in the Account; and the 793 Cask is included with several others that was bought, which had Iron Hoops, for Wine and Oil; and were delivered to your Agents, as appears by their Receipts.

4thly, I have already acquainted you, That there are no Invoices of the particular Species bought, the Rice, Rusk, and Figiolas: They were Species the Fleet were in great need of, by that time it got on the Coast of Catalonia, through the Defect of Bread, Peas, and Oatmeal; and where so great a Fleet came, and People got Notice of their Necessities, they disposed of their Commodities at what Rate they pleased; and, besides, the said Provisions were bought up in small Parcels, as they could be met with.

5thly, I cannot imagine that the English Money ought to be reduced into Ps. 8 / 8 at 5 s. per Dollar, when I know it cost but 4s. 7 d.; and am of Opinion, could have had Money at a cheaper Rate; but, being only requested by your Board, to give Receipts to Messieurs Hodges and Company, I took no further Notice.

6thly, I thought you could not be insensible but there must be a great Occasion for Casks, knowing how suddenly the Fleet was sent into the Mediterranean, and no Coopers nor Necessaries sent thither, till the Fleet was just ready to fail for the Levant; which occasioned great Want, and continual Complaints made me by the Commanders, who had often applied themselves to Captain Ayles; upon which he desires me in a Letter, to buy Cask, assuring me it would be for his Majesty's Service, as indeed it was, there being no Cask fit to receive Wine in, or any thing else: Now, if he could have bought them cheaper, why did he give me the Trouble? I think there can be no room left for a Doubt, but the Cask, and Iron Hoops, charged in the Account, was bought, since there is Receipts for the same: As to the Receipts for the Money which they cost, I have not; and that is no Reason for you to think they were not bought, as well as those charged in Mr. Fitzgerald's Account; and believe my Word may be as soon credited as a Spaniard's Receipt.

7thly, The Receipt for 340 Dol. paid Mr. Hart, is delivered.

8thly, Upon the Fleet's Separation, I appointed Mr. Thomas Reynolds Agent for the Victualling (there being Occasion for such a Person); and gave him Orders to take care of the Two Victualling Ships, then with the Fleet; as also directed him to receive, and issue, all Provisions bought in the Straits, and pay short Allowance Money: And altho Captain Ayles and Mr. Bowles arrived in December, yet they did no Business till the Latter-end of January, being what they themselves desired, by reason they would not meddle with any broken Proportions: But as to that, if you think it too much, you may act as you please:

You cannot expect he can give you an Account of the Cost and Charges of all Provisions bought, when he did not buy it; for that was Business enough for 3 or 4 People: Besides, as you may observe, by the Number you have now abroad, with a less Fleet, and he had only one Clerk, it was impossible for him to have left the Fleet, and gone to buy Provisions where it was to be had.

9thly. As to the Leakage, if any Error, I desire it may be rectified; but the Certificates and Papers are not by Guess: but if any of them be not in a proper Form, whenever the Persons are to be met withal, it may bedone to your Minds.

10thly, I observe, you take notice, That when the Pursers are allowed 30 s. per Tun for Beer, and 4 d. per Pound for Butter, they stand to all Hazards of Leakage, and no Charge to the King for Cask, or otherwise: 'Tis very reasonable, that they should not charge any thing for Leakage, because they take it immediately from the Shore, into the Ships; but I hope there is no Occasion to tell you, that it is impossible for the grand Fleet to do this; and who should be at the Loss but the King? 'tis what is customary in England; and there is as much Reason (if not more) for its being so abroad, the Motion being more uncertain than here: However, there is nothing charged in the Account, now before you, for Leakage of Oil, which hath been very considerable; and I am very well assured, that you reimburse the Purser of a single Ship whatever Charge he is at for Trimming of Cask: But this is little to the Purpose: There was a Necessity for both Wine and Oil Casks; for which Reason they were bought: There is likewise a great deal of Difference between a single Ship, and a whole Fleet; the latter makes every thing dear where-ever it comes: I do not doubt but it appears (notwithstanding the Fleet is much inferior), that the Beer cost the King above 40 s. per Tun abroad; and, I believe, the King was well served, when I found it would come out at 30 s. per Tun, and Butter at 4 d. per Pound, without Cask.

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

11thly, I have ordered Mr. Thomas Reynolds to get his Account ready for your Board; but I desire mine may be first dispatched.

No. 3. Mr. Lownds' Letter to Brook Bridges Esquire, One of the Auditors of his Majesty's Imprests.

Sir,

BY Order of the Lords Commissioners of his Majesty's Treasury, I herewith send you the Account of the Right Honourable Admiral Russell, of Monies by him received, and expended, in the Straits, with the Observations of the Victuallers of his Majesty's Navy thereupon; and also the Admiral's Answer to the said Observations: My Lords being desirous to know, whether the Rates for the several Species (fn. 2) [of Provisions] therein contained do come out as cheap as the King's Allowance to Pursers of Ships, do direct you to appoint some short time for the Victuallers, and Mr. Doddington, to attend you in this Matter: and, upon hearing of them, to cast up the Rates of the several Species of Provisions, and then certify their Lordships, in a Report, whether upon the Whole, the same do exceed the King's Allowance to Pursers, and how much.

Treasury Chambers. 23 March 169⁵/6.

I am, Sir,

Your most humble Servant,
Wm. Lowndes.

N° 4. Auditor Bridges' Report, relating to Admiral Russell's Account of Provisions.

May it please your Lordships,

IN Obedience to your Lordships Commands, signified to me by Wm. Lowndes Esquire, I have perused an Account of Money received, and expended, in the Straits, by the Right Honourable Admiral Russell; and also the Observations upon the Account, made by the Commissioners for Victualling his Majesty's Navy, and the Admiral's Answer thereunto: I have also been attended by the said Victuallers, and by Mr. Doddington; but am not able to certify your Lordships, whether the Cost of the Provisions, contained in the said Account, does exceed, or come short of, the King's Allowance to Pursers: for that the said Victuallers, and Mr. Doddington, do not agree what is the King's Allowance to Pursers in foreign Voyages; the Prices of the several Species of Provisions, from whence the Allowance to Pursers is computed, according to the Particulars brought me, being very different.

Supposing the King's Allowance to Pursers, in foreign Voyages, does not exceed Six-pence a Man per diem; then the Provisions made by Admiral Russell, at the Rates set down, including Cask, Leakage, &c. do exceed that Allowance; but if the King's Allowance be 7 d. a Day, then the said Provisions come out much cheaper than such Allowance to Pursers.

2d April 1696. B. Bridges, Auditor.

N° 5, Auditor Bridges' 2d Report.

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

The Right Honourable Admiral Russell

In this State of the Admiral's Account, although I have charged all the Dollars received by him, at 5 s. each, have surcharged him with 1,190 Dollars, 7½ Rials, objected to by Mr. Papillon, and disallowed him 5,142 l. 16 s. 10 d. for Cask, Leakage, and Mr. Reynold's Salary; yet thus made up, according to the Proportions of Pursers Allowances, in foreign Voyages, at the Rate of 7 d. a Man per diem, there will be 2,134 l. 15 s. 2½d. less due to his Majesty, upon the Balance, than appears to be upon the Account as delivered in by Mr. Russell: All which is most humbly submitted,

22 May 1696. B. Bridges, Auditor.

N° 6. The Commissioners of the Victualing's Letter to Mr. Lowndes.

Honoured Sir,

1st, Yours of the 20th Instant was brought to our Office, the 22th in the Morning, with the Copy of the Account of Admiral Russell, stated by Mr. Auditor Bridges; at the Bottom of which Account he declares, that the Account is made up according to the Proportion of Pursers Allowance, for foreign Voyages, after the Rate of 7 d. per Man, per diem: To which we say, that never any such Proportion was allowed to Pursers: When the Victualing was in Contract, such Proportions were stated between the King and Contractors; after which Rate the Contractors were to be allowed for broken Proportions; and in the said Rate was included all manner of Charges whatsoever belonging to the Victualing, as Cask, IronHoops, Biscuit-Bags, Freight, Lighterage, Porterage, Cartage; and also all the Charges of Clerks, and other Officers, for managing the Service; and Profit of the Contractors likewise: The Pursers when they have left broken Proportions have not been allowed more than is mentioned in our Letter to Mr. Auditor Bridges, of the 27th of March; and, in whole Proportions, till the Year 1694, but 5 d. ¾ per Man, per diem: When the Pursers are in foreign Voyages, and wholly victual their Ships, they have been allowed, according to the Cost of Provisions in the several Places where they have been, sometimes 7 d. 8 d. 9d. and sometimes to 18 d. per Man, per diem, in the West-Indies; and when it hath fallen out, that they could not give an exact Account, we have made the best Inquiry touching the Cost of Provisions, and Charges, and agreed with them on the best Terms we could.

2d. But as to the present Case of the Account delivered by Mr. Reynolds, there can be no right Measures taken from what was the Rule with Contractors, there being therein no complete Victualing of any Ship, but only some particular Species; which, we humbly conceive, ought to be reckoned according to their Cost; and if that cannot be produced, then according as such Goods did cost, at the same time, in the same Places.

3. We are very confident, that the Admiral never intended to go by any such Rule as is proposed; for that, in the Account delivered, which we have, in our several Papers, made our Objections to, and Remarks upon, there was charged but 4 d. per Pound for Butter, and 30 s. per Tun for Beer; which are the Rates, we confess, we have allowed to Pursers in foreign Voyages: But we suppose Mr. Doddington hath put him upon this Notion, to have the Account calculated according to the Proportion of 7 d. per Man, per Day, allowed the Contractors; but it was never allowed to Pursers, as before-mentioned: And how to regulate all the Charges that attend the Victualling, when it is reckoned at 7 d. per Man, per Day, will be somewhat difficult; and, we think, will no way answer the End proposed: However, if it be the Lords Pleasure to go by that Method, we send you, inclosed, a State of the Account according thereto; to which we refer.

4. We have made no Deduction, but what is really included in the 7 d. per Man, per diem, and we think, when the Gentleman, that advised to this Method, considers it, he will find he was mistaken.

5. Underneath the Account, there are several Particulars set down, which will amount to a considerable Sum; but, till the Freights are made up with the Victualling Ships, and the Pursers Accounts, we cannot come to a certain Knowlege, what the Leakage of Wine and Oil, or the Defect of Raisins, or Freight of Ships employed in that Service, amounts to.

6. As we have noted in our Papers, Commissioner Ayles, and Mr. Bowles, arrived in December at Cadiz; to whose Province it properly belonged, to buy what was wanting for the Fleet: And, therefore, there was no need of buying so great a Quantity of Raisins, nor Wine, for Ten Months, and Oil for Twenty Months, to come; esqecially this last Species, which is so subject to Waste and Leakage.

7. We have, in our former Papers, stated the Matters, as we thought, with great Moderation and Indifferency; and, as we told their Lordships, when we were there, we shall submit to their Lordships Determination, whatever it be: and we humbly conceive, that what their Lordships shall determine to be due to the King, ought to be paid at Cadiz, where the Money was taken up; there being, at present, a Want of Money in that Place for the King's Service. We are,

Honoured Sir,

Your very humble Servants,

24 June 1696.

We hope some speedy Care will be taken for supplying the Victualling-Office with current Money, otherwise it will be impossible to subsist.

N° 7. An Answer to each Paragraph of the Victuallers Letter, that was sent to Mr. Lowndes, the 24th June 1696.

1st. THEY are a little mistaken, when they say, That 7 d. per diem was never allowed to Pursers; as they are also, in affirming, That 7 d. was allowed only to Contractors: For Mr. Papillon must needs remember, that the Contractors had 8¾d. in the Mediterranean, 8d. and 7¾ d. in the Chanel; out of which, the Contractors found Casks, Bags, Hoops, &c. and Necessary Money, only at 6d. per Man, per Month, and all other Charges; and the King paid the extra' Necessary Money, by Bills on the Treasurer of the Navy: I am very well assured, that, when Mr. Papillon was one of the Contractors, the Pursers were allowed at the Rate of 7 d. a Man, per diem: as appears by their several Accounts, stated in the Navy-Office; and the Pursers made use of the Contractors Cask, Hoops, Bags, &c.; for there was nothing included, but Provisions, and necessary Money; and 'tis since Christmas, that these very Commissioners allowed 7 d. a Man, per diem, to the Pursers of the Bonadventure and Colchester, for what they had supplied their Ships with in the Mediterranean (the Casks, Iron-Hoops, Biscuit-Bags, &c. were the King's), without examining their Accounts, as it is reasonably to be supposed; for, if they had, it would have appeared unto the said Commissioners, that the Provisions, with the necessary Money included, would not amount to more than 6½d. a Man, per diem; as doth appear by the Particulars hereunto annexed: So that all they say in their First Paragraph is erroneous; for, in the First Place, they say Pursers had never 7 d. a Man, per diem; and, in the latter Part, they have known the Pursers have 7 d. 8 d. and 9 d. and 18 d. per Man, per diem.

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

2dly, The Account delivered by Mr. Reynolds, has not any relation to what has formerly been between the King and the Contractors; but those who are acquainted with the Victualling are sensible, that when 7 d. a Man, per diem, is allowed, then each Species is to be rated at such Prices; and so for 8 d. 9 d. or upwards: It doth appear, by my Account, that I have provided something of every Species, which is charged there according to its Cost: Therefore, the 2d Paragraph is, like the First, nothing to the Purpose.

3dly, It is true, I designed no otherwise than to have the Account passed as it was stated, when delivered to the Commissioners of the Victualling; in which every Thing is charged as it cost: But upon their making several empty Objections against the said Account, and insisting on Invoices of the Particulars, which my long Indisposition, and Multitude of Business, would not admit me to procure, neither did I believe it of any Use, these Gentlemen not giving me any Advice what they would expect from me, I thought it necessary to propose 7 d. a Man, per diem, (fn. 3) [it being what they have lately allowed to Pursers, to shew their Lordships how much my Account came under 7 d. a Man, per diem]: notwithstanding, I reckon nothing for Cask, or other Charges, which attends that Service: By which, I hope, their Lordships will see, I designed to manage this Matter, whilst abroad, with as much good Husbandry to the King, as my other Business, which was great, would possibly admit of.

4thly, What is said in their 4th Paragraph, is erroneous; for, in the First Place, never any Contractors had so little as 7 d. a Day from the King, either in the Mediterranean, or Chanel; and when the Pursers had been allowed at the Rate of 7 d. a Man, per diem, in the Contractors time, they always made use of the Contractors Cask, Iron Hoops, Bags, &c. and, when they are allowed 7 d. a Man, per diem, by the King, then they made use of his Casks, Iron Hoops, &c.: So these Gentlemen have been a little wrong to make so many Mistakes in One Letter, as they have done in this: There was never any thing included at 7 d. a Man, per diem, but Provisions, and necessary Money; for the Pursers, that have been allowed this 7 d. a Man, per diem, were never charged with any imaginary Casks, Hoops, Bags, Freight, Cartage, or any such thing, which they mention in the Account, to which they refer.

5thly, My Account being cast but at 7 d. a Man, per diem, has no relation to the several Particulars underneath their Account; for, at 7 d. a Man, per diem, there is nothing included but Provisions, and necessary Money; and, moreover, I include all the Cask that was bought, and all other Charges, except Freight; and all extra Freight, in the Contractors time, was paid, by the King, over and above their 8¾d. a Man, per diem; which Mr. Papillon very well knows; and as also does appear by Certificate from the Navy-Office: As to the Leakage of Wine and Oil, from the time it was put on board the Victualling Ships, to the time of its Delivery into his Majesty's Ships, the King always allowed for it, and still continues so to do; though I charge nothing, at 7 d. per diem, for Leakage of either: And for such Provisions as prove defective, or leaks out, when on board the King's Ships, and a Survey called to testify the same, 'tis allowed to the Pursers in passing their Accounts.

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

6thly, If these Gentlemen had considered the Matter, they would not have sent such a Quantity of Flour, as they did, without Suet to answer the same, or giving timely Notice for providing of Raisins, to spend with it; but when this Flour arrived at Cadiz, which was in October, then was the Fruit to be provided; in procuring of which, all Diligence was used; but such a large Quantity being wanted on a sudden, made People dispose of them at their own Rates; and then Malaga, which was the only Place to have them at, and to which Port Vessels were sent to receive them; and they meeting with contrary Winds, which prevented their getting out of the Straits in Ten Weeks; and obliged me to employ Persons to pick up all the small Parcels they could meet with in and about Cadiz, though at an extraordinary Price, our Want of them being so great at that time; for, if the Fleet had spent upon that little Beef and Pork, which came over with the Flour, they would have had no Flesh to eat within a Month after its Arrival: Now, it appears, that the Fleet was provided, notwithstanding contrary Winds hindered the greatest Part of the Fruit from coming to it, long before Captain Ayles, or Mr. Bowles, arrived, or that I had received Advice of their Coming: Therefore, I judged, that the Safety of the Fleet depended upon my buying both Wine and Oil, for their Supply, while it was seasonable, which was before these Persons came; and, had not my Care and Diligence, in procuring these Provisions, been very great, the Fleet had often wanted many Species, for Months together: This Quantity of Fruit was no more than the Flour required; only the contrary Winds hindering it so long from getting it out of the Straits, when they did arrive, by reason of the small Parcels I was forced to procure, there was more than there was Flour remaining to spend with them: And yet it was a mighty Service that the said Fruit was provided; for, had it not, Captain Ayles would have been at a sensible Loss, and the Fleet under ill Circumstances, for want of it, to spend with what Flour he was obliged to provide afterwards, to lengthen out what little Flesh was then left; which, with a small Quantity of fresh Pork, supplied the Fleet till the Victuallers arrived, which was about February or March: There was also a Necessity for the Quantity of Wine that was provided, and more, if it could have been got; and yet it was far short of Ten Months, as those Gentlemen are pleased to say; and the Oil much short of Twenty Months; for that which was provided at Mayork, was but Six Months, at whole Allowance; and if there was any Waste in the latter, it proceeded from Captain Ayles' Negligence, in not distributing it to the Fleet, as soon as he might; for then every Ship would have taken care of their own Proportion.

7thly, They have concluded, after the same manner as they began, full of Mistakes, and nothing to the Purpose; for, if they had writ Matter, they should have said, We have, in our former, stated the Matters, as we know, without Moderation, or Indifferency.

N° 8. The ACCOUNT of Admiral Russell, as stated by Mr. Auditor Bridges, after the Proportion of 7 d. per Man, per diem, examined; and the Deductions of the Charges, &c. included in the said 7 d. deducted by the Commissioners of the Victualling.

Besides, there is the Freight of several Victualling Ships; viz. the Castle Frigat, John Phill Master; the Friendship, Wm. Hill; the Hopeful Margaret, Mordecai Wheatly; and the Happy Return, Roger Wadham Master; which were employed in this Service, for fetching Wine and Oil, which might be proper and necessary for the Service:

But, it is humbly conceived, when the King pays the Freight, he ought to have the Benefit made thereby.

There is likewise considerable Leakage, in the Oils lying long in the Ship of Mordecai Wheatly, 4,966 Gallons; whereof 901 Gallons was pumped up, and disposed of as Pump-Oil; and other Leakage, in other Ships, whereof we have not a full Account.

There may be also demands by the Pursers, when they come to make up their Accounts, for Leakage, both for Wine and Oil; but the Loss of this cannot be known till all the Pursers have made up their Accounts.

The Pursers likewise demand Allowance for Water, to mix with their Wine; which, when the Pursers have Money for their Beer, is always upon their own Charge.

24 June, 1696.

N° 9. A Copy of Admiral Russel's Account, as stated by Mr. Auditor Bridges, and examined by the Commissioners of the Victualling,

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

Answers to the Account sent Mr. Lowndes, in a Letter from the Commissioners of the Victualling, bearing Date the 24th of June 1696.

1st, Contractors were never allowed so little as 7d. a Man, per diem; but Pursers have.

2dly, What hath been allowed for sized Fish, before or after 1694, is nothing to the Purpose; for Auditor Bridges's Account is at 7d. per diem; and then a sized Fish is 8¼d.

3dly, I answer this, in the same manner as I do the sized Fish.

4thly, Whether 3lb. ³/8 of Raisins, were ever issued before for a Piece of Beef, and the like Proportion for a Piece of Pork, with Peas, I know not; but this was done by Captain Ayles' own Desire: And Mr. Papillon very well knows, that they were issued, as above mentioned, having seen it certified by Mr. Phin. Bowles, at the Bottom of his Receipt for Fruit, which was delivered him with my Account: And as to the Raisins that have been provided since by Captain Ayles being cheaper than those I bought, there is a great deal of Reason for it: What I provided was on a sudden, the Fleet being driven to Necessity; And what Captain Ayles provided has been in small Quantities, and gave timely Notice for buying of them, which alters the Property extremely: 'Tis plain there was none of those which I provided cast by Survey; for I left the Straits some Months after they were spent, and no Application had been made to me for an Order to survey any Part of them: Which were allowed for Beef and Pork, before and after 1694, is nothing to the Account stated by Auditor Bridges.

5thly, What is mentioned about the Price of Peas, is nothing to the Matter.

6thly, The Quantity of Oil provided by me was what would serve the Fleet, at Short Allowance, about 15 Months; Six of which were expired before Captain Ayles arrived at Cadiz: but I observe, in the 6th Paragraph of their Letter, they say, I had provided Oil for 20 Months to come, after Captain Ayles' Arrival; which is a plain Mistake: In my answer to the said Paragraph, I tell the Reason for providing the several Species; to which I refer.

7thly, I allow, that 30s. is what hath been, and is, allowed to Pursers, for Beer, on foreign Voyages; but then, 'tis seldom they are more than 2 or 3 Ships together; and they receive the Wine directly from the Shore on board their Ships: So that there can little or no Leakage happen; neither have they Occasion to be at any Charge in getting it on board, by reason they have the Ships Men and Boats to do it: But, with a Fleet, this is not to be done; and what is charged for Leakage in my Account, is what happened in bringing the Wine to the Fleet, from the several Ports where it was provided.

8thly, This 1s. 6¾d. is easily rectified.

9thly, All right

10thly, This being all a Mistake, as appears by Certificate from the Navy-Office, I conceive no Deductions can be made.

11thly, The 10th Article being all a Mistake, this is frivolous, and nothing to the Purpose.

12thly, This is all Imagination, and nothing to the Purpose.

13thly, All a Mistake.

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

14th. The Provisions stated in Mr. Auditor Bridges' Account, which was sent to the Commissioners of the Victualling, will not amount to 7d. a Man, per diem, except the Necessary Money be added to it; which some of their Clerks may prove, in case they do not understand it themselves.

15thly, The 8 d. a Man, per Month, which is extra' Necessary Money, was never paid by the Contractors, but by the King; and Bills made out on the Treasurer of the Navy for the same.

16thly, When the Contractors were allowed 8¾d. a Man per diem, I believe it might be as it's mentioned on the other side; but my Account, as it is stated by Auditor Bridges, has no relation to that.

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

18thly, Besides, there is the Freight of several Victualling Ships; viz. the Castle Frigat, John Phill Master; the Friendship, William Hill Master; the Hopeful Margaret, Mordecai Wheatly; and the Happy Return, Roger Wadham Master; which were employed in this Service, for fetching Wine and Oil, which might be proper and necessary for the Service: But it is most humbly conceived, that when the King pays the Freight, he ought to have the Benefit made thereby.

19thly, There is likewise considerable Leakage in the Oils long lying in the Ship of Mordecai Wheatly, 4,966 Gallons; whereof 901 Gallons was pumped up, and disposed of as Pump-Oil; and other Leakage, in other Ships, whereof we have not a full Account.

20thly, There may be also Demands, by the Pursers when they come to make up their Accounts, for Leakage, both for Wine and Oil; but the Loss cannot be known till all the Pursers have made up their Accounts.

21. The Pursers likewise demand Allowance for Water, to mix with their Wine; which, when the Pursers have Money for their Beer, is always upon their own Charge.

17thly, My Account being cast only at 7d. a Man, per diem, 'tis neither natural, reasonable, nor moderate, to make any Deductions.

18thly, In the Contractors time, all extra' Freights were paid by the King.

19thly, If there was any Leakage, by the Oil lying long in the Ship of Mordecai Wheatly, or any other, it was a Neglect in Captain Ayles not to distribute it to the Fleet sooner, as he might have done.

20thly, I never heard any Complaints made of Leakage, either of Wine or Oil: But, if any such thing does appear, by a Survey, it's allowed by the King, on the Pursers passing their Accounts.

21thly, The Pursers never made any Demand for an Allowance of Water, to mix with their Wine: But it was for Water which the Ships Companies drank, when there was no Wine to be got; as also, to prepare and dress Provisions; for which they are always allowed by the King.

N° 10. Auditor Bridges' 3° Report, in Answer to the Victuallers Objections.

May it please your Lordships.

IN Obedience to your Commands, I have perused and considered the Papers, delivered in by the Commissioners for victualing his Majesty's Navy, relating to Admiral Russel's Account of Provisions; and a State thereof, which, by your Lordships Commands, I was required to make, according to a Calculation of 7d. a Man, per diem: To which the said Commissioners have been pleased to object; viz.

1st Objection. That 7d. a Man, a Day, was only allowed to Contractors.

Answer. I do not find so little as 7d. a Man, per diem, allowed at any time to Contractors, for Sea Victuals: Mr. Papillon and his Partners were allowed 8d. a Day, in the Chanel, and 8d. ¾ in the Straits, West-Indies, &c.

2d Objection. I have computed sized Fish at 8d. ¼ each; whereas, Pursers were allowed but 4d. ¾ until the Year 1694; and then but 6 d.

Answer. In the Year 1672, Mr. Papillon being then One of the Contractors, I find 8d. ¾ allowed on Pursers Accounts for the said Fish.

3d Objection. I have allowed for Biscuit at 1d. ¾ per lb.; whereas, till the Year 1694, Pursers were allowed but 1d. per Pound; and afterwards at 1d. ¼.

Answer. The same Account for 1672, charges 1d. ½ per Pound to Pursers; but, I find, they have herein justly charged me with a Mistake in the Computation of 395,363 lb. Wt. of Rusk which, at 1 d. ³/8 per. lb. makes, as they say, but 2,265 l. 2s. 0d.¾ In Excuse of it I can only say, it was not done wilfully; but, being pressed to hasten in the Account, mistook the Fraction, and computed it at 1d.⁵/8.

4 Objection concerns the Proportion and Price of Raisins, to be allowed for Beef and Pork; which does not affect my Computation; but seems to infer, if Bees and Pork may be supplied there by other Provisions, at one 3d of the Cost, no more should be sent than was absolutely necessary.

This Objection also charges me with computing Beef at 9d.¼ and Pork at. 6d. ¾ per Piece; whereas Pursers, till the Year 1694, were allowed but 7d. for Beef, and 4d. ½ for Pork.

Answer. By the same Account for 1672, I find 10d. allowed for Beef, and 7d. for Pork.

5 Objection. I compute Peas at 4 s. per Bushel; whereas Pursers were allowed, till 1694, but 2s. 4d.; and afterwards but 3s.

Answer. The same Account allows to Pursers 4s. 5d. per Bushel.

6 Objection. The Quantity of Oil provided was sufficient for above 20 Months.

This not concerning me, I refer to the Admiral's Answer.

7 Objection. I compute Beer at 40 s. per Tun; whereas Pursers have never been allowed more than 30s. Waste and Charges included.

Answer. The same Account for 1672, allows 2 l. 11s. 3 d. per Tun to Pursers.

8 Objection. The Auditor's Computation allows 18d. ¾ more than ought, for Necessary Money.

Answer. The Calculation I was required to make, was to satisfy your Lordships, whether the Account, as delivered in by the Admiral, or an Allowance, at the Rate of 7d. a Man, per diem, would come out easiest to his Majesty; and I thought it of more Moment to make a speedy Return, than to be over-nice in the Calculation: But I stand corrected, and will do them right in the Balance.

The 9th Article is not objected to.

10th Objection. That 7d. a Man, a Day, includes all manner of Charges relating to the Victualing, as Cask, Iron-Hoops, Biscuit-Bags, Freight, &c.

Victualling Fleet in the Straits.

Answer. Mr. Papillon, and Partners, though allowed at 8d. ¾ a Man, per diem, and at the same Rate for broken Proportions, are allowed also for extraordinary Freight, Charges to Agents in distributing Provisions to the Fleet, Water-Cask, Iron-Hoops, &c.

The following Deductions, amounting to upwards of 20,000 l. being grounded upon Mistakes, will scarce need a further Answer; however, I will take notice of them, in their Order.

The 11th, 12th, and 13th Articles, concern the Proportions of Biscuit-Bags, Cask, and Iron Hoops, necessary for certain Quantities of Provisions, which I will not contend with them about; but must not allow; that Contractors, or Pursers, supplied them at 7d. a Man, per diem.

The 14th Article, concerning Necessary-Money, included in the 7d. a. Day, I either do not understand, or the Inference is very unreasonable: If the 6d. a Month, allowed for Necessary Money, be cast into the 7d. a Day, why then should 2,022 l. 15s. 6d. be surcharged? If they would have it thought it is not comprehended in the 7d. a Day, they did prudently not to speak plain in a thing which must have been contradicted.

The 15th Article makes a Doubt, whether 8d. a Month, allowed for extraordinary Necessary Money, was included in the 7d. a Day: If none of these Gentlemen had never been Contractors, I should not much wonder at the Doubt.

The 16th Article surcharges the Admiral's Account with Drawage Money, Adds Money, Portage, Cartage, Charges of Clerks, Contractors Profit, &c.; all which, they affirm, are included in the 7d. a Day; and that for these, and some of the foregoing Articles, the said Account naturally, reasonably, and moderately, ought to be surcharged with 21,649 l. 15s. 11d.

I have already acquainted your Lordships, That there was never so little as 7d. a Day, for each Man, allowed to Contractors; that Mr. Papillon, and his Partners (and I do not know that any other Contractors have served the Crown cheaper), were allowed 8d. a Day in the Chanel, and 8d. ¾ in the Straits; that the same Allowance is made for broken Proportions, supplied by Pursers; and that the Contractors are, notwithstanding, allowed for extraordinary Freight, Charge of Agents, Water-Cask, Iron-Hoops, Biscuit-Bags, &c.; which will appear by Mr. Colby's Certificate, and the Account itself, which I have brought down with me: Therefore I am humbly of Opinion, the Deductions are neither natural nor reasonable: But with your Lordships Permission, will put it upon this Issue:

There are some Contractors for Victualing, who have not yet passed their Accounts; and, I persuade myself, they are very moderate and reasonable Men: If these Gentlemen can prevail with the said Contractors to be content with 7d. a Man, a Day, with or without these Deductions, I will readily subscribe to their Opinions.

As a further Evidence, that these Gentlemen do not think that 7d. a Man, a Day, did comprehend the whole Charge of Victualing, I take leave to remind your Lordships, that, in the Year 1691, They were pleased to deliver your Lordships a Breviate of the Victualing, for the Years 1690 and 1691; which was referred to Mr. Auditor Done, and myself, to examine: The Intention of it, if I mistake not, was to satisfy your Lordships, that these Gentlemen had been very good Managers, in that their Victualing came under 20s. a Man, per Month; and whatever it came at under that, was supposed to be saved: Yet 20s. a Man, per Month is above 8d. ½ per Day; and in that Computation, the Harbour-Victuals were comprehended also, which were never reckoned at above 6d. a Day.

All which is most humbly submitted.

14 July 1696. A true Copy.

B. Bridges.

Ordered, That the Consideration of the said Papers be referred to the Committee of the whole House, who are to consider the State of the Navy.

Sedgmore Drainage.

A Petition of the Commoners, who have a Right to Pasture in the Common of Sedgmore, in the County of Somerset, was presented to the House, and read; setting forth, That * * * *

Ordered, That Leave be given to bring in a Bill for opening the ancient Roynes and Watercourses in Sedgemore, in the County of Somerset, for rendering the said Moor healthful and profitable to the Commoners and Inhabitants thereabouts: And that Mr. Hunt and Mr. Hoar do prepare, and bring in, the Bill.

Hamburgh Company.

A Petition of divers Merchants, Clothiers, Clothworkers, and others, of the Town of Leeds, was presented to the House, and read; setting forth, That the Exportation of our English Woollen Manufactures was first attempted, and successfully carried on, by the good Management of the Company of Merchant-Adventurers of England; but, of late, their Privileges have been very much infringed by Foreigners, upon whom great Part of our Woollen Trade is already fallen; and, if speedy Care be not taken, by their Insight into the Working of our Wool, may be wholly carried into foreign Countries; where it is already begun: And praying, That Leave be given to bring in a Bill for establishing the said Company in the Enjoyment of their Privileges, exclusive of all Foreigners, only in Germany, upon such Terms and Conditions as shall be thought meet.

Ordered, That the Consideration of the said Petition be referred to a Committee: And that they do examine the Matter thereof; and report the same, with their Opinion therein, to the House:

And it is referred to Lord Downe, Sir Walter Younge, Sir Wm. Ashurst, Mr. Gwynn, Sir Rowland Gwynn, Mr. Palmes, Sir Theop. Oglethorp, Sir Chris. Musgrove, Mr. Boyle, Mr. Lowther, Mr. York, Mr. Osborne, Sir Abs. Danby, Mr. Greenhill, Sir William Drake, Mr. Probert, Mr. Farrer, Sir John Bolles, Mr. Stringer, Mr. Chetwynd, Sir Wm. Blacket, Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Parkhurst, Mr. Harley, Lord Irwyn: And they are to meet this Afternoon at Five a Clock, in the Speaker's Chambers: And have Power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records.

Privilege.

Sir John Williams being in the House;

The Petition of Jane Hungerford was read; setting forth, That, about 30 Years since, the Petitioner, for 425 l. purchased of Sir Trevor Williams, the said Sir John's Father, Six Tenements, in the County of Monmouth: which the Petitioner afterwards re-demised to Sir Trevor, subject to the Payment of an Annuity of 50 l. per Annum, for the Petitioner's Life; which being in Arrear, for several Years, in Sir Trevor's Life-time, the Petitioner, by Law, got Possession of the said Premises; and received the Profits till Michaelmas last, when some of the Tenants attorned to Sir John Williams; which occasioned the Petitioner to impower Robert Jones to make a Distress for her Arrears of Rent; upon which, she supposes, Sir Jo. Williams has grounded his Complaint of a Breach of Privilege: And praying, That the Hearing the Matter of the said Complaint, which is appointed by the Committee of Privileges and Elections to be heard before them the 3d of February next, may be put off for a Fortnight longer; and that she may be then heard, because she cannot be ready sooner, touching the Matter of the said Complaint.

Ordered, That the Hearing of the said Matter be put off for a Fortnight longer: And that the Petitioner be heard before the said Committee.

Duty on Leather.

A Petition of the Tanners, Fellmongers, &c. within the Borough of New Malton, and other the MarketTowns and Villages adjacent, within the North Riding of the County of York, was presented to the House, and read; setting forth, That the Duty upon Leather has been extremely oppressive and ruinous to the Petitioners; the particular Grievances being too tedious to trouble the House withal; but an absolute Necessity forces them to apply for Redress, their Stocks being wasted, and the poorer Sort ready to starve: And praying, That the said Duty may be taken off.

Ordered, That the said Petition do lie upon the Table.

Duty on Leather.

A Petition of the Leather-dressers and Glovers of the City of York was presented to the House, and read; setting forth, That the Severity of the Officers, in receiving the Duty upon Leather, and searching the Glovers in the Markets, though the Duty has been paid before; together with the Dearness of Leather; hath reduced the Petitioners to a Want of Subsistence: And praying the House to take off the said Duty.

Ordered, That the said Petition do lie upon the Table.

Transport Debt.

A Petition of Charles Newton, Master of the Hester, of Newcastle, and of other Masters of Ships of Newcastle, was presented to the House, and read; setting forth, That they were employed in the Transport-Service, in 1693, for which there is due to them above 2,381 l. though they were forced to borrow Money at Interest, for which they have not received any Satisfaction: And praying the Consideration of the House therein.

Ordered, That the said Petition do lie upon the Table.

Tone Navigation.

Ordered, That the ingrossed Bill for making the River Tone navigable be read the Third time upon Tuesday Morning, next, after Eleven a Clock.

Darwent Navigation.

A Bill for making the River Darwent, in the County of Derby, navigable, was according to Order, read the First time.

Resolved, That the Bill be read a Second time, upon Monday Sevennight, in a full House.

Leave of Absence.

Ordered, That Sir Philip Butler have Leave to go into the Country for Ten Days, upon extraordinary Occasions.

Gifts to charitable Uses.

An ingrossed Bill for the better and further Encouragement of Gifts to charitable Uses was read the Third time.

And the Question being put, That the Bill do pass;

It passed in the Negative.

Preventing Export of Corn, &c.

Mr. Heveningham reported from the Committee appointed to draw up Reasons, to be offered to the Lords, at a Conference, for disagreeing to some of the Amendments, made by their Lordships, to the Bill, to prohibit the Exportation of Corn, Malt, Meal, Flour, Bread, Biscuit, or Starch, for One Year, from the 20th Day of January 1698, That they had drawn up Reasons accordingly; which they had directed him to report to the House; which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were twice read; and agreed unto by the House; and are as follow; viz.

The Commons disagree to the Amendment, Skin 4. L. 5. Because the prohibiting Corn, Malt, Meal, Flour, Bread, Biscuit, or Starch, to be carried out of England, to the Sugar Islands, or Colonies, may put the Inhabitants there upon planting Provisions themselves, instead of Sugar-Canes, Cotton, Ginger, and Indico; which will be greatly prejudicial to England, in respect of its Navigation and Riches:

Nor do the Northern Plantations supply the Sugar Islands with half the Biscuit, Meal, Flour, and Peas, they use; and with no Starch at all:

And because it may be of dangerous Consequence to accustom his Majesty's Southern Islands in America, to draw such Provisions from New-England, Pensilvania, and other Parts upon the Continent, with which they were heretofore supplied from England; and, should there be a Prohibition, as aforesaid, it would raise the Provisions of the Northern Plantations to so high a Rate, that the poorer Sort of the People of the Southern Islands, or Colonies, would be unable to subsist, and consequently get off the Island as fast as they can; nor will the Rich be able to maintain their numerous Servants and Slaves, necessary to carry on their Works.

The Commons disagree to the Amendment, Skin 4, L. 10, for the Reasons aforesaid.

The Commons disagree to the Amendment, Skin 4, L. 11, Because, if the Words "English Fishery" are left out, there will be no Provision made to carry Corn for the Supply of our Settlements in Newfoundland; who have no Corn of their own Growth, and have always been supplied from England.

The Commons disagree to the Amendment, Skin 4, L. 12, for the Reasons given for their disagreeing to the First Amendment:

And to the Amendment, Skin 4, L. 14, and 23, for the same Reasons.

The Commons disagree to the Amendment, Skin 5, L. 30, Because that they conceive, that their own Proviso will more effectually prevent any Disputes that may arise between the King's Officers and the People, in relation to Cockets and Returns, than the Clause added as an Amendment.

Conference desired with Lords.

Ordered, That Mr. Heveningham do go to the Lords, and desire the said Conference.

Russian Trade.

Sir Thomas Davall reported from the Committee of the whole House, to whom the Bill to inlarge the Trade to Russia was committed, the Amendments, made by the Committee to the said Bill; which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

A Clause was offered, to be added to the Bill, with Blanks, That * * * *

And the same was twice read; and the Blanks filled up; and the Clause, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed to be made Part of the Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill with the Amendments, be ingrossed.

Distillation from Corn.

An ingrossed Bill for prohibiting the Distilling of Spirits, and low Wines, from Corn; and to prevent Frauds in Distillers; was, according to Order, read the Third time.

Members summoned.

Ordered, That the Serjeant do go with the Mace into Westminster-hall, and Courts there, and Court of Requests, and summon the Members there to attend the Service . . . . .

And the Serjeant being returned, with the Mace;

Mr. Speaker opened the Bill.

Resolved, That the Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act to prohibit the excessive Distilling of Spirits, and low Wines, from Corn; and against the Exporting of Beer and Ale; and to prevent Frauds in Distillers.

Ordered, That Mr. Heveningham do carry the Bill to the Lords, and desire their Concurrence thereunto.

Lords agree to a Conference.

Mr. Heveningham reported, That he having, according to Order, been at the Lords, to desire a Conference, they do agree to a Conference, accordingly, To-morrow at Twelve a Clock, in the Painted Chamber.

Ordered, That the Committee who are appointed to draw up Reasons to be offered at the said Conference, do manage the Conference.

Defaulters to Call of the House.

Ordered, That the Names of the Members who made Default to appear at the Call of the House, be called over upon Thursday Morning next: And that such of the said Members as shall not then attend, be sent for in Custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House.

Committees.

Ordered, That all Committees be revived.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight a Clock.