House of Commons Journal Volume 3: 23 March 1644

Die Sabbati, 23 Martii, 1643.

PRAYERS.

Money advanced by Overbury, &c.

AN Ordinance for Re-payment and Re-imbursement unto Sir Giles Overbury, Mr. Nath. Stephens, and Mr. Edw. Stephens, such Sums of Money, with Interest, as they have advanced for the Security and Service of Gloucester, &c. was this Day read the First and Second time; and, upon the Question, committed unto Sir Hen. Vane sen. Mr. Cage, Sir Anth. Irby, Sir Walt. Erle, Mr. Nath. Stephens, Mr. Tate, Mr. Hodges, Sir Edw.Stephens, Mr. Dowse, Sir Jo. Trevor, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Herbert, Sir Jo. Curson, Mr. Pury, Mr. Rolle, Sir Wm. Strickland, Sir Rob. Pye, Sir Edm. Fowell, Mr. Buller, Sir Hen. Mildmay: And are to meet this Afternoon, at Two of Clock in the Star Chamber: And have Power to send for Parties, Witnesses, Papers, Records, &c.

Members Fines.

Ordered, That the Serjeant write out the Names of Twenty of the first Members of the House, that have refused to pay their Shillings, for coming after Nine.

Informations against Withers.

Ordered, That the Informations and Complaints against Mr. Anth. Withers be referred to the Consideration of the pose, the Committee formerly appointed for Mr. Withers be joined to the Committee of Examinations.

Army Affairs.

A Letter from Leicester, of the Twentieth of March, relating the Passages of the Skirmishing that was between their Forces, and the Enemies Forces at Coote's Bridge near Loughborough; and complaining of Major Bingley and Sir Edw. Hartopp; and divers Examinations concerning them; were all this Day read: And

It is Ordered, That these Examinations, and this Letter, be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms: And Sir Jo. Curson, and Mr. Millington, are appointed to acquaint my Lord General with this Letter, and these Examinations; and do desire him, if he shall see Cause, to send down the Lord Grey.

Declaration respecting Peace, &c.

Mr. Recorder reported the Additions to the Declaration Yesterday reported: And they were read; and assented unto; and the Declaration passed, upon the Question; and ordered to be sent unto the Lords, for their Concurrence; and to be printed, together with the several Particulars mentioned in the said Declaration: And that Mr. Recorder have the Care of the printing of it, and of the dispersing of it: And that the Lords be moved herein.

Letter read.

A Letter from Sir Wm. Waller, from Up Marden, of the One-and-twentieth of this Instant Month, was this Day read; And Mr. Trenchard is appointed to write an Answer to it.

Court of Wards.

Ordered, That when Mr. Tate has ended his Report, that Sir Hen. Vane sen. shall make his Report concerning the Court of Wards.

Grounds of Peace.

Mr. Tate presented, from the Committee, the Reasons of this House, why they adhere unto the Votes concerning the Grounds of Peace: The which were read; and, one by one, read, and passed, upon the Question; and ordered to be delivered to the Lords, at a Conference.

(fn. a) The Reasons of the House of Commons, why they adhere unto their Votes concerning the Grounds of Peace.

THE House of Commons, out of a Desire of keeping a good Correspondence between the Two Houses, have been always very tender, and are so still, of pressing your Lordships with any thing, but what, in their Apprehensions, greatly concerns the Good of the Kingdoms; and therefore, should be ready to acquiesce in the Answer received from your Lordships, but that they find it would tura very much to the Disservice of the Publick. By what the House of Commons have received from your Lordships, it doth appear, that your Lordships Desire is, that a Committee may be appointed to treat with the Scotts Commissioners, to consider and prepare Grounds, whereby all his Majesty's Dominions may enjoy a happy and safe Peace; and that This may be another Committee than what the House of Commons desired: Which the House of Commons taking into their Consideration, do observe, that your Lordships do as well differ in the Matter of the Votes sent up by them, as in the Way which they propounded for the managing thereof.

First, For the Matter;

That, Whereas the House of Commons have desired that the Grounds of the just and safe Peace propounded should be such as both Kingdoms might consent unto and prosecute; your Lordships having left these Words out, it doth not appear that your Lordships do agree that the Grounds of the Peace should be such whereto the joint Consent and Prosecution of both Kingdoms should be desired: And the House of Commons, considering the Treaty with our Brethren of Scotland and their present Engagement in the same Cause, do think it very necessary to adhere to their Vote in that Particular.

As concerning the Way propounded by your Lordships; It is, in the first Place, that a Committee be nominated by the Houses only, to treat with the Commissioners of Scottland in this Business, which puts the Transaction thereof in a Way of that Delay and Distance between the Two Kingdoms, as if they were not united in one common Cause, or that it should not be managed by a joint Committee of both Nations; which was, and still is, the Desire of the House of Commons.

The Second Thing wherein your Lordships differ from the House of Commons, in the Way of managing this Business is, That whereas the House of Commons have desired it might be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms, &c. your Lordships desire, that another Committee might be appointed; it being alledged by your Lordships, that some of those Persons of the Committee of both Kingdoms, by reason of their other Employments, will be necessitated to be absent from This.

In Answer to which,

The House of Commons do conceive, that both Houses, foreseeing that divers of that Committee, by reason of their Places of publick Service, might be employed elsewhere, did therefore nominate a greater Number of Persons of each House, than otherwise they would have done; and they then conceived, that the Number of Six, whereof One to be of the House of Peers and Two of the House of Commons, were sufficient for the transacting of the Matters contained in that Ordinance: And considering that the Members of either House that are likely to remain, notwithstanding the Absence of those that have such publick Employments elsewhere, will much exceed that Quorum, they do not see any Reason, for the present, to recede from their former Resolution in that Particular.

Another Reason of your Lordships dissenting from referring this Business to the Committee propounded by the House of Commons is, That your Lordships desired to retain the antient approved Parliamentary Way, for each House to nominate their own Members as Committees; this being a new Power to be given to them.

In Answer to which,

The House of Commons do conceive it to be the usual Way in Parliament, that when both the Houses have nominated a Committee of the Members of both Houses, that either House may desire to refer any other subsequent Thing to the same Committee; which hath been in all Times accordingly practised.

Neither can they consent, that it is improper to refer this Business to the Committee desired by them, upon your Lordships Reason, "that the Ordinance that came from them, did restrain the Committee of both Kingdoms in Matters of Peace," in respect, that, by the Ordinance, it doth appear, that such Matters by Directions of the Houses might be referred to them; and the Restraint, mentioned by your Lordships, in that Ordinance, doth rather imply, that the Houses intended the Reference of Businesses of this Nature to this Committee, than the Constructions your Lordships put upon it.

And the House of Commons, in further Maintenance of their Votes, do propound it to your Lordships Consideration, that the Committee to which the House of Commons hath referred this Business, is a joint Committee, by Ordinance of Parliament, with the Scotts Commissioners; and therefore cannot proceed in the managing in War, &c. without their Presence: And, in respect the Number of the Scotts Commissioners here is so small, that they have not a sufficient Quorum for both Committees, (in case the Committee, desired by your Lordships, should be agreed unto by the House of Commons) it must necessarily follow, that the Businesses of one or both Committees must be very much retarded, if not wholly laid aside. And this likewise answers your Lordships Objection, "that the adding this new Power to the Committee of both Kingdoms, would be prejudicial to the managing of the War, and the Service of the Publick;" the contrary whereof doth appear.

So that, although your Lordships have not as yet thought fit to concur with the House of Commons in their Votes concerning this Business, yet, hoping that they have now given your Lordships full Satisfaction, they do continue their former Desires of your Lordships Concurrence; and That with all convenient Speed, since it is a Business, as your Lordships acknowledge, which much concerns the Good of the Three Kingdoms, and that it now rests with your Lordships.

And as the House of Commons do adhere for the referring of the preparing the Grounds of Peace to the Committee of both Kingdoms; so likewise, for the same Reasons, they do adhere to their former Vote for the referring the Paper from the States Ambassadors to the same Committee: And desire likewise your Lordships Concurrence with them therein.

Message to Lords.

Sir Rob. Pye is appointed to desire the Lords Concurrence to the Declaration; and to desire, that Mr. Recorder may have the Care of the printing of it; and to desire a free Conference, by Committees of both Houses, upon the Matter of the last Conference touching the Grounds of Peace: And was to put the Lords in mind of passing and expediting the Ordinance concerning Tonage and Poundage; and concerning the Four associated Counties of Kent, Sussex, Surry, &c.

Money for Plymouth.

Ordered, That the Committee for Plymouth do bring in an Ordinance for securing, upon the publick Faith of the Kingdom, all such Sums of Money as shall be advanced by any well-affected Persons for the Defence and Safety of Plymouth; and for sending Forces down thither to take the Field.

Ablin's Petition.

Ordered, That the humble Petition of James Ablin, Dutch Merchant, this Day presented to the House, and recommended by the States Ambassadors, be referred to the speedy Consideration of the Committee for the Navy.

Captain Zacharie.

Ordered, That the Letter from Captain Zacharie, of the Nineteenth of this Instant Month, now a Prisoner in Amsterdam, be referred to the Consideration of the Committee for the Navy.

Answer from Lords.

Sir Rob. Pye brings Answer, That the Lords do agree to a present free Conference, as is desired; and that to the rest of the Messages carried by him, they will send Answer by Messengers of their own.

Mr. Tate, Mr. Prideaux, are appointed Managers of this Conference.

Associated Counties.

Ordered, That Sir Tho. Barrington make Report of the Business concerning the associated Counties, so soon as the Conference shall be ended.

Reports deferred.

Ordered, That the Report concerning the Establishment of my Lord General's Army, and the Report concerning the Court of Wards, be made on Monday Morning peremptorily, the first Business; and that no other Business intervene; and that Mr. Speaker put the House in mind hereof.

Prince Elector.

Ordered, That the Report concerning the Prince Elector be made on Monday Morning next.

Weekly Meal.

According to an Order of the House, the Lords Amendments to the Ordinance concerning a Weekly Meal, were read; viz.

In the Fourth Sheet and Fourteenth Line, these Words "being approved of by both Houses of Parliament:" In the Eighth Line, and last Leaf, after the Word "Parliament," and before the Word "or," put in these Words, "or any Peer, or any Assistant of the House of Peers, or any Attendant on either House of Parliament."

Resolved, &c. That this House doth adhere to the Ordinance as it went from hence, as to the First of the Lords Amendments.

Resolved, &c. That this House doth concur with the Lords, in their Second Amendment to the Ordinance concerning a Weekly Meal.

A Conference is to be desired with the Lords, upon their Amendments to the Ordinance concerning the Weekly Meal: And Mr. Ellis is appointed to manage this Conference.

Tonage and Poundage.

A Message from the Lords, by Serjeant Whittfeild and Mr. Page;

The Lords have returned the Ordinance concerning Tonage and Poundage, with Two Provisoes to it; and do assent to the said Ordinance, with the said Provisoes.

Ordered, That this Message be taken into Consideration on Monday Morning next.

Answer returned by the same Messengers; That this House has considered their Lordships Message, and . . . send Answer by Messengers of their own.

Resolved, &c. That the former Ordinance concerning Tonage and Poundage be printed forthwith.

Hertfordshire.

Ordered, That Sir Tho. Barrington do, on Monday Morning, make Report of the Business referred to the Committee concerning Hertfordshire.