House of Commons Journal Volume 3: 30 November 1644

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 3, 1643-1644. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 3: 30 November 1644', in Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 3, 1643-1644, (London, 1802) pp. 709-711. British History Online [accessed 18 April 2024]


In this section

Die Sabbati, Novembris ult, 1644.


Sir L. Maddison, &c.

ORDERED, That Sir Lionell Maddison, and Mr. Clavering, that came and submitted themselves to the Parliament in July last, as appears by a Letter from Sir Wm. Armyn, and, the rest of the Committees and Commissioners of both Houses, residing in the Scotts Army, be referred to the said Commissioners; to deal with, and dispose of, as they shall find Cause, upon Experience they have had of their good and real Affections to the Parliament.

Mr. Blakiston is desired to send this Order down to the Commissioners.

Court Martial.

An Ordinance for the Continuance of the Court Martial established to sit in London, Westminster, or within the Lines of Communication, was this Day read; and, upon the Question, passed; and ordered to be sent unto the Lords for their Concurrence.

Watford Vicarage, &c.

An Ordinance for the settling of Mr. Philip Goodwyn in the Vicarage of Watford; and of Dr. Burges in the publick Lecture of the Church of Paule's, London, was this Day read the Second time; and, upon Question, committed unto the Committee of plundered Ministers; with the Addition of Mr. Recorder: And they are to take care that this Ordinance may be so amended, that Dr. Burges may be armed with such Power, and put in such a Condition, that he may be certain of what is granted him from Paule's, London.

Earl of Carlell's Fine.

Resolved, &c. That the Earl of Carlell shall be admitted to his Fine and Composition; and referred to the Committee at Goldsmiths Hall for his said Fine and Composition.

Delinquents Fines.

Resolved, &c. That this House doth admit Tho. Playters Esquire to his Fine and Composition for his Delinquency; and doth accept of a Thousand Pounds as a Fine set upon him, for his Delinquency: And doth Order, That, upon the Payment of the said Fine of a Thousand Pounds, that the said Tho. Playters shall be clearly discharged of his Delinquency, and of the Sequestration of his Estate; provided, that the Arrears due from the Sequestration of his Revenue be paid into the Office of Sequestration.

It is further Ordered, That this Thousand Pounds be paid to the Treasurer at Wars, in part of the Two thousand Five hundred Pounds formerly ordered for the Relief of Widows, and Soldiers in Want; to be by him paid according to such List as shall be returned to the Treasurer at Wars by the Committee where Mr. Scawen has the Chair.

And it is Ordered, That Mrs. Wyvell, Widow of Captain Wyvell, slain in the Parliament's Service, shall be considered of in the Distribution of this Thousand Pounds.

Resolved, &c. That Sir Tho. Allen Knight be admitted to his Fine and Composition for his Delinquency; and this House doth accept of a Thousand Pounds as a Fine set upon him for his Delinquency: And do Order, That, upon the Payment of the said Thousand Pounds, that the said Sir Tho. Allen shall be clearly discharged of his Delinquency, and the Sequestration of his Estate taken off; provided, that the Arrears due from his Sequestration, be paid in to the Sequestrators.

And it is Ordered, That this thousand Pounds be paid in, upon Account, to the Treasurer at Wars; to be by him issued forth, and paid to poor Waggoners employed in the Parliament's Service, and to no other Use, according to such List as he shall receive from the Committee where Mr. Scawen has the Chair.

Debt to Jones.

Upon Report this Day made by Mr. Nicoll of the Opinion of the Committee to whom the Petition of Rich. Jones was referred;

It is Ordered, That whereas there is a Debt of Two hundred Pounds owing unto the said Rich. Jones, for Arms delivered unto the Service of the Parliament by the said Rich. Jones, for the which he stands arrested and imprisoned; that the First Two hundred Pounds that shall arise upon any Fine or Composition of a Delinquent at Goldsmiths Hall shall be employed for the Discharge of the said Debt.

Church Government.

An Ordinance for the taking away of the Book of Common Prayer, and for the establishing and putting in Execution of the Directory for the Publick Worship of God, was this Day read the First and Second time: and, upon the Question, committed unto the Committee that prepared it; who are likewise to consider of the Statute of 35 Eliz. concerning such as shall forbear to come to the Divine Service; and likewise to consider of the Particulars touching Marriage and Burial: And are to meet on Monday, at Two post Meridiem, in the Exchequer Chamber.

Mr. White reports from the Committee unto which the Clause of the Directory, concerning such as are to be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was referred, the Opinion of the Committee, that the said Clause should be left out; and these Words inserted in lieu thereof; viz. "the Ignorant and the Scandalous are " not fit to receive this Sacrament of the Lord's Supper."

The Clause was read; and, upon the Question, passed; and ordered to be inserted in the Directory, in the lieu of the Clause committed: And the Lords Concurrence likewise to be desired therein.

Negotiations with the King.

Mr. Holles reports from the Committee of this House, sent with the Propositions to the King, That they had formerly acquainted this House, by Letter, of the Delivery of the Propositions to the King; which was on the Lord's Day last in the Afternoon. That, on Wednesday in the Afternoon, the Earl of Dorsett sent them Word, that the King was ready to give them an Answer: Whereupon the Lords and Commons, and Scotts Commissioners, attended his Majesty: And his Majesty was pleased to cause this Paper (which is the Copy of the Original his Majesty then delivered) to be read:


The Propositions, newly presented to his Majesty, being very long; and containing Matters in them of very great Moment and Importance, as being, in great Part, an Alteration of the Frame and Government both in Church and State; and the Messengers, who presented them, declaring, that they have no Power to treat, or to consent to any Alteration; it cannot be expected, that His Majesty should return a present, particular, and positive Answer: But as He hath, from His Soul, always desired the settling a happy Peace in this distracted Kingdom; and, to that Purpose, hath, from time to time, made all possible Overtures; so He hopes, that God will so work upon the Hearts of all Persons concerned, that even this Application, such as it is, upon further Thought and Consideration, may produce some good Effects towards it: To the which, His Majesty calls God to witness, there shall be nothing wanting on his Part, which is agreeable to Honour, Justice, and Conscience. There shall all possible Expedition be used in preparing His Majesty's Answer, which He intends speedily to send, by Messengers of His own: And, to that Purpose, that there may be no Loss of Time, He desires a Safe Conduct may be presently sent for the Duke of Richmond, and the Earl of Southampton, with their Attendants, to bring up His Majesty's said Answer; And His Majesty doth heartily wish, that God may so deal with Him, and His, as He endeavours all just and lawful Ways to restore this poor Kingdom to a lasting, happy, and blessed, Peace. Given at Our Court at Oxford, this * Day of November, *.

After the reading of this Message, his Majesty used these Words, as near as the Committees could collect by Consultation together, and received from them the Answers expressed; viz.

"On Wednesday the Twenty-seventh of this Instant, in the Evening, the Earl of Dorsett sent a Gentleman to us, to let us know, that his Majesty was resolved upon his Answer; which we might receive that Night, or in the Morning, as we would: Unto which we answered, We were ready to attend his Majesty at what time he pleased to command us. The Messengers speedily returned, and brought us Word, His Majesty was ready to give us his Answer presently. We forthwith attended him at Christ Church; where his Majesty delivered a Paper to one that stood by: and commanded him to read it unto us: After the reading whereof, his Majesty used these Words, as near as we can recollect, "That He had ever expressed "his Desires of Peace; and which did never more appear, "than by giving this Answer: And, if He had not a "great Desire to Peace, He would not have given it." Upon hearing the Paper read, the Earl of Denbigh, at our Desire, did move his Majesty, that we might withdraw; and attend him again presently: Upon which his Majesty demanded, If we had Power to treat; and said, "He "knew we had none; for we had told Him so." The Earl of Denbigh moved again, That we might withdraw, or have the Liberty to attend his Majesty again before our Return, as conceiving our Instructions would engage us to some Reply to that Paper delivered us by his Majesty: But his Majesty answered to the same Effect as before. Then, by our Advice, the Earl of Denbigh desired of his Majesty, to know to whom that Paper was directed. The King said, "That is My Answer; I give "it to you; it is your Duty to take it: You may deliver "it to them that sent you." The Earl of Denbigh pressing it the Second time; the King replied, "You "must take it." Then Mr. Hollis said, "Sir, We had in "Charge to bring those Propositions to You, and to "desire Your Answer in Writing; which we have, with "all Humility, done. The Reason why the Earl of "Denbigh desired we might withdraw, was, that we might "consult with our Instructions; because the Paper de"livered unto us hath no Direction: And therefore we "beseech Your Majesty to let us know, to whom it must "be delivered." To which the King said, "I am not "bound to answer That Question." Mr. Hollis replied, "If we can have no other Answer, we must carry This." Then Mr. Parpoint said to his Majesty, "Our Instruc"tions are only to deliver the Propositions to Your "Majesty; to desire Your Answer in Writing; and to "return with it: But, in this Paper delivered by Your "Majesty; there is a Message." His Majesty to this said, "That is all one; This is my Answer: You must carry "it." And, after a Pause, he added, "I desire you to "further the Procuring of this Safe Conduct; then which "you cannot do better Service for the Kingdom. I will "not press you to go presently: You may, if you will, "stay some time; but the sooner you send me a Safe "Conduct, the better." So we kissed his Majesty's Hand, and came away: And the next Morning, being ready to take Coach, a Message was brought us from his Majesty, That we would tarry a little, till a Trumpeter might be ready to go along with us, who was sent by him to bring the Safe Conduct: Which we did; And accordingly he is come with us for that Purpose."

Resolved, &c. That this House doth approve of the Proceedings and Carriage of the Committee sent with the Propositions to his Majesty for a safe and well-grounded Peace; and do acknowledge the good Service performed by them; and do return them Thanks for their faithful Management of this Business.

Resolved, &c. That it be referred to the Committee of the King's Revenue, to give Order for the Defraying of the Charges and Expences of the Committees of both Houses, sent with the Propositions to his Majesty, according to the last Allowance.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Robert Riche and Mr. Page;

The Lords desire a Conference, by Committees of both Houses, presently, in the Painted Chamber, if it may stand with the Conveniency of this House, concerning the Message sent from the King.

Answer returned by the same Messengers; That this House has considered their Lordships Message; and has resolved to give a present Meeting, as is desired.

Sir Henry Vane junior, Mr. Holles, Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Peirpoint, are appointed Reporters of this Conference.

Mr. Holles reports the Conference with the Lords: That, at that Conference, the Lord * * did deliver the Resolution of the House of Peers, as followeth;

" That the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of Southampton, being employed by his Majesty unto the Two Houses of Parliament, with his Answer unto the Propositions of both Kingdoms, lately presented unto him, shall have a Safe Conduct to come to London, and return again with their Necessaries and Attendants, not exceeding

And that this may be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms; to the end that the Commissioners of Scotland may herein be consulted with."

Resolved, &c. That the Debating of the Message, together with this Paper sent from the Lords, be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms: Who are to return their Opinions to this House what they think fit to be done thereupon; and to report on Monday next.

Resolved, &c. That the Message sent from the King, upon the Delivery of the Propositions unto him, and the Report made thereupon by Mr. Holles, be entered in the Journal.

Ordered, That the Members of this House do confer with the Lords and Scotts Commissioners, that were sent with the Propositions concerning the Passages that happened, and Entertainment they received, at Oxford; to the end that, upon Conference with them, they may make a Narrative of the whole Matter to the House.

Letters referred.

Ordered, That the Letter from my Lord Admiral the Earl of Warwick, of 28 Novembris, with an inclosed Abstract of a Letter from Captain Ellyson and Captain Thomas, be referred to the Consideration of the Committee of both Kingdoms.

Ordered, That the Letter from Reading, of 28 Novembris, from the Commissioners in my Lord General's Army, be referred to the Consideration of the Committee of both Kingdoms.

Exchange of Prisoners.

Ordered, That the Debate of the Business concerning the Exchange of Major Porter and Captain Greenvile be resumed on Monday Morning next, at Ten of Clock: And Mr. Speaker is to put the House in mind hereof.