House of Commons Journal Volume 3: 21 December 1644

Pages 730-732

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 3, 1643-1644. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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Die Sabbati, Decembris 21, 1644.


Negotiations with the King.

MR. Hollis his report from the Committee of Lords and Commons appointed to return the Answer of both Houses to the Two Lords, That the Duke of Richmond delivered as followeth:

My Lords and Gentlemen,

We shall obey your Commands in presenting this to His Majesty; and withal, desire we may present you what we have in Command from Him: We observed, when we waited on you last, your Lordships desired to receive All, in Writing: In Conformity to it, if your Lordships please to assign how it shall be received Tomorrow Morning, we shall accordingly prepare the best we can to give you Satisfaction.

"That the Committee of both Houses hath considered their Orders, and likewise their Lordships Desires; and do find, that they have only for the present Power to deliver that Answer to his Majesty's Message: If their Lordships have any further Command from the King, they well know the Way to address unto the Houses."

"That the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland shall be ready to receive what their Lordships have further in Command from his Majesty, when the Two Houses shall appoint any to join with them for that Effect."

"The Duke of Richmond asked: If they should make their Address to the Speakers in the Houses, or to the Speakers themselves?"

"My Lord of Northumberland answered, We had no Power to give any Direction."

Mr. Speaker acquaints the House, That the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of Southampton were with him this Morning; and did acquaint him, That they had something from his Majesty to deliver unto both Houses; and did desire to know which way they might address themselves to the Houses in the Delivery of it. Mr. Speaker acquainted them, he would communicate their Desires to the House.

Members not to hold Offices. [Self-denying Ordinance.]

Mr. Pierrepont went up to the Lords, to deliver unto them an Ordinance of Parliament, appointing, that the Members of either House shall not have or execute Offices or Commands, Military or Civil, during this War, conferred or granted by Parliament: And further to acquaint them, That this House has appointed a Committee, to consider of the Necessities of the several Members of both Houses, and to present what Allowance they think fit to be made for their present Support and Maintenance.

The Speaker left the Chair, when this Message was delivered.

Negotiations with the King.

Mr. Holles went up to the Lords, to desire them, That the Committee formerly appointed may presently meet, to receive what the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of Southampton has to deliver to the Houses; and, after the Delivery thereof, to know of them, if they have any thing further in Charge from his Majesty to deliver unto the Houses; and that if they have, that this Committee has Power presently to receive it; and likewise to send Intimation to the Scotts Commissioners to desire them presently to meet with the Committee for this Purpose: And to desire the Lords, that they will sit this Afternoon at Two of Clock.

Army Pay, &c.

Mr. Solicitor reports from the Committee of both Kingdoms, That they have distributed the Seven thousand Pounds assigned to the Armies, according to the Reference unto them: And, upon his Report,

It is further Resolved, &c. That the Commissioners of Excise do forthwith advance Three Thousand Pounds; to be paid to the Treasurer at Wars, upon Account, to be employed towards the Pay of my Lord General's Forces, and Train of Artillery.

Resolved, &c. That Five hundred Pounds shall be paid unto my Lord General in lieu of Seven hundred Coats sent to my Lord General's Army, and charged upon the Account of his Army, and lent by my Lord General to Sir Wm. Waller.

Merchant Adventurers.

Ordered, That the Merchant Adventurers be desired to call a Court on Monday next: And that Mr. Nicoll, Mr. Whitelock, and Mr. Bedingfield, do repair to that Court; and desire them to accept of the Payment of Ten thousand Pounds in the Time of Course after the Six Months are ended, in case the same be not paid at the End of Six Months; which Time of Six Months they have already declared their Consent to forbear Payment of the same.

Answers from Lords.

Mr. Pierrepont brings Answer, That the Lords will send Answer by Messengers of their own.

Mr. Holles brings Answer, That the Lords will send Answer presently by Messengers of their own.

Report deferred.

Ordered, That Mr. Solicitor do proceed in his Report from the Committee of both Kingdoms the first Business this Afternoon.

Negotiations with the King.

A Message from the Lords, by Serjeant Whittfield and Serjeant Finche;

The Lords have received Advertisement from the Duke of Richmond and the Earl of Southampton, that they have some Matter further in Charge from his Majesty to deliver unto both Houses, and the Commissioners of Scotland: They have thought fit to refer it to the Committee formerly appointed, to meet and receive it this Afternoon, at Three of Clock; and will give Notice to the Scotts Commissioners to meet them likewise: And desire this House to appoint their Committee to meet at the same Time.

The Lords have likewise appointed their House to meet this Afternoon, at Four of Clock: and desire this House to do the like, if it may stand with their Conveniency.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Robert Riche, and Mr. Page;

That the Lords do agree to all that was last sent concerning the Two Lords sent from the King, saving the Point of Time: And that the Lords have appointed Three of Clock this Afternoon; and their House to sit at Four.

Swedish Commissioner.

That the Committees of both Houses may presently meet to receive the Swedish Commissioner, he being now here: The Place to be the Painted Chamber.

Answers to Lords.

Answer returned by the First Messengers; That this House has considered their Lordships Message; and do agree that the Committee shall meet at Three of Clock, as is desired: And the House is resolved to sit this Afternoon.

Answer returned by the Second Messengers; That this House has considered their Lordships Message; and do agree, that the Committee shall meet this Afternoon, as is desired: And have appointed the Committee for the Swedish Agent to meet presently.

Committee added.

Ordered, That Mr. Perepoint be added to the Committee of Twenty-eight, instead of Sir Humfry Tufton, who is gone into the Country.

Die Sabbati, Decembris 21, 1644;

Post Meridiem.

Lady Carewe's Petition.

THE humble Petition of the Lady Jane Carewe, Wife of Sir Alexander Carewe Baronet, desiring a further Respite of the Execution of the Sentence of Death passed upon her said Husband, was this day read; and, upon the Question, rejected.

Private Petitions.

Resolved, &c. That the first Business on Tuesday next shall be the Report concerning the Commissioners of Ireland, and other private Petitions.

Scotts Commissioners.

Mr. Solicitor reports from the Committee of both Kingdoms, That the earnest Desire of that Committee is, That an Answer may be speedily given to the Papers given in by the Commissioners of Scotland; and the rather, in regard, that some of the Scotts Commissioners are very suddenly, upon the Beginning of the next Week, to repair to Scotland; there to give Account of their Proceedings to the Parliament that is to meet there very shortly.

Scotts Army Pay, &c.

Ordered, &c. That it be referred to the Committee at Goldsmiths Hall to consider, whether, out of the Proceed of the Coals, any Proportion may be raised towards the monthly Pay assigned to the Scotts Army, without violating or weakening the Engagements already raised upon the Credit of the Coals: And likewise to consider how the Coals may be managed and advanced to the best Advantage of the Publick: And likewise to consider how the Seven thousand Pounds per mensem may be effectually raised and paid to the Scotts elsewhere, in case it cannot be raised out of the Coals in manner as aforesaid: And further, to consider of a Ground of Credit for the Raising of Twenty thousand Pounds, to be forthwith paid to the Scotts for the bringing of them Southwards: And to consider of the State of the Newcastle Delinquents, and to represent it to the House: And are to meet on Monday, at Two of Clock in the Afternoon; and to bring in their Report on Tuesday next.

Ordered, That it be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms, to treat with the Scotts Commissioners upon their Advance Southward, in case Twenty thousand Pounds can be forthwith raised, and paid unto them.

Ordered, That the Report of the Scotts Papers concerning their Armies, and the Army in the North, be proceeded in on Monday Morning next.


Ordered, That on Monday Morning next, the Committee of the Navy do bring in the Ordinance for continuing the Collections of the Customs, according to former Order.

Prisoners of War.

Ordered, That on Monday Morning next, the Motion concerning the Lord of Irwing's having Six hundred of such Prisoners as are here in the Parliament's Custody, and will voluntarily go with him into France, be again considered of.

My Lords and Gentlemen,

Negotiations with the King.

We are commanded by His Majesty to let you know, that it is His Desire, That, before our going from hence, we might receive a Resolution to that Part of His Majesty's Desire, expressed in his Message of the 13th of December 1644, concerning your treating with Him by Persons to be appointed on either Part; that so, according to what shall be agreed upon, we may have Opportunity to offer what else we have in Charge from His Majesty, in order to the procuring a happy Peace: But yet His Majesty earnestly desires, that the Way proposed by Him may be agreed unto; as That which He conceives to be the most likeliest Means speedily to draw on a happy and well-grounded Peace: Whereas otherwise the Distance of that Place which His Majesty is most likely to reside in, and also many other Respects, will extremely lengthen the Treaty, and defer the attaining to that happy and blessed Peace, which His Majesty, above all other Things, so earnestly desires; and, consequently, be a Cause of the further Effusion of His Subjects Blood, besides the many other Losses to the Kingdom: Which His Majesty is so desirous to prevent, That, as He will readily do what else shall be requisite on His Part, so He will most willingly give such Powers to the Persons employed by Him, as there shall be little or no Loss of Time upon that Occasion; the compassionate Sense His Majesty hath of the Miseries and Calamities the Kingdom doth suffer by this unnatural War, prevailing so far upon Him, that He is as earnest in seeking out the Remedy, as if He Himself were the only Sufferer.

21 Dec. 1644. J. Richmond and Lenox. T. Southampton.

Mr. Hollis reports the Conference that was with the King's Commissioners, upon the Delivery of their last Paper; videlicet,

The Reply of the Committee, in hæc verba;

We shall presently report this Paper delivered in by your Lordships; but we are directed by the Houses of Parliament, to know of your Lordships, if you have any thing further in Charge from his Majesty to deliver unto the Houses; if your Lordships have, this Committee have Power and Order now to receive it.

The Reply of the Scotts Commissioners; videlicet,

That the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland, having received what your Lordships have last given in, are ready now to receive what your Lordships have further in Charge from his Majesty.

The Reply of the King's Commissioners; videlicet,

We conceive, that we may have somewhat further in Charge from his Majesty to deliver unto your Lordships, &c. after you shall have declared your Resolution concerning the Managing of the Treaty betwixt his Majesty and your Lordships by Persons on either Part; but have nothing else at this Time to offer unto you.

Upon the Delivery and Consideration of this Paper by the House; it is Ordered, That the Select Committee may presently meet; and, in the Name of both Houses, desire, that their Lordships will forthwith repair to his Majesty with the Answer already given: And that the Scotts Commissioners may be conferred with herein.

Resolved, &c. That this shall be the Answer to the Paper now delivered in by the Commissioners from the King: And that the Lords Concurrence be desired herein: And that the Select Committee may presently meet: And the Scotts Commissioners desired likewise to meet presently.

Sir Peter Wentworth carried up this Message.

A Message from the Lords, by Serjeant Whitfeild and Doctor Heath;

The Lords think fit to refer the Consideration of the Two Papers, delivered by the Duke of Richmond and Earl of Southampton, to the Committee which was appointed by both Houses, to receive what those Lords were to deliver from his Majesty; that they may meet with the Scotts Commissioners, and prepare an Answer to those Papers which were now delivered to the Committee of both Houses; and to make their Report to the Houses: And the Committee to meet presently in the Painted Chamber.

Resolved, &c. That the Answer to the Message shall be, That the House will send Answer by Messengers of their own.

Answer returned by the same Messengers; That this House has considered their Lordships Message; and will send Answer by Messengers of their own.

Payment to Redgeway, &c.

Resolved, &c. That it be recommended unto the Committee of the Revenue, to pay unto Captain Wm. Redgeway, Sir Charles Coote Knight and Baronet, Sir Francis Hamilton, and Captain Wm. Parsons, Officers of Ireland, towards their present Relief, and the Arrears due unto them, a Hundred Pounds apiece.

Message agreed to.

Resolved, &c. That the House doth agree to the last Message sent from the Lords: And that Mr. Hollis do acquaint the Lords herewith.

Negotiations with the King.

Mr. Hollis reports the Answer agreed upon by the Committee, to be given to the last Paper given in by the King's Commissioners.

My Lords,

The Desire expressed in the last Papers given in by your Lordships, is a Part of his Majesty's Message of the Thirteenth of December, and concerns the Manner of Treaty, which (according to the Answer already given) will require some time to be resolved upon; and, therefore, it is the Desire of both Houses of Parliament, and of the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland, That your Lordships would be pleased speedily to make your Repair unto his Majesty, with the Answer already given to His Majesty's Message brought by your Lordships.

Gore's Sequestration.

Ordered, &c. That it be referred to the Committee at Haberdashers Hall, to take effectual Order for the Seizing of the Estate of Wm. Gore Merchant, being a Delinquent, and having deserted the Kingdom, leaving his Assessments unpaid, and so within Ordinance of Sequestration; and to dispose the same to Sale, or otherwise; that such Monies as shall be raised thereupon, be paid to Sir Gilbert Gerrard, to be by him issued towards the Satisfaction of the Two thousand Five hundred Thirty-six Pounds, assigned by Ordinance of Parliament, for the Relief of Widows and Soldiers.