House of Commons Journal Volume 8: 22 May 1663

Pages 489-491

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 8, 1660-1667. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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Die Veneris, 22 Maii, 15 Car. IIdi.


Bridgnorth Writ.

ORDERED, That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a Writ, for Election of a Member for the Borough of Bridgnorth, in the stead of Mr. Bennet, lately deceased.

Leave of Absence.

Ordered, That Mr. Onslow, Mr. Elliot, and Sir Edward Masters, have the Leave of this House to go into the Country.


Ordered, That the Countess of Peterborough, and Meredith Lloyd, her Lessee, and their Attornies, Agents, and Solicitors, be enjoined to stay all Proceedings at Law, upon an Action of Ejectment against Edward Pollard Gentleman, the Tenant to Sir Richard Onslow, and other Trustees of Henry Smith, deceased, for charitable Uses, touching the Manor of Southwick and Eastbrooke, and the Messuages and Lands thereunto belonging, in the County of Sussex, during the Session of this present Parliament.

Lord Strangford's Estate.

A Bill to enable the Lord Strangford to sell Lands, for the Payment of his Debts, was this Day read the Second time.

Resolved, &c. That the said Bill be committed to Sir Cha. Harbord, Mr. Wm. Mountague, Mr. Morice, Sir Rich. Oatley, Sir Tho. Allen, Mr. Harbord, Mr. Buller, Sir Edw. Masters, Sir John Brampston, Mr. Street, Mr. Hoby, Mr. Steward, Sir Cliff. Clifton, Sir Rich. Lloyd, Sir Phil. Warwick, Sir Hen. Wood, Sir John Birkenhead, Mr. Attorney of the Duchy, Lord Fanshaw, Mr. Westphaling, Mr. Waller, Sir Rich. Braham, Sir Tho. Tomkins, Colonel Robinson, Sir Edw. Walpoole, Sir Bain. Throckmorton, Mr. Clifford, Sir Sol. Swale, Mr. Wren, Sir Rich. Onslow, Mr. Allan Apsley, Mr. Daniell, Mr. Trevor, Mr. Chichley, Mr. Coventry, Mr. Kent, Mr. Oakley, Sir Rich. Francklyn, Mr. Whitaker, Sir Rich. Everard, Mr. Graham, Mr. Hatton, Mr. Finch, Sir Geo. Courthop, Sir John Coriton, Mr. Edw. Mountague, Sir John Low, Mr. Flint, Mr. Law. Hide, Sir Wm. Glascocke, Mr. Bulteele, and all the Members of this House that serve for the County of Kent: And they are to meet on Monday next, at Two of the Clock in the Afternoon, in the Speaker's Chamber; and to summon and hear all Parties concerned: And to send for Persons, Papers, and Records.


A Bill touching the Arrears of the Excise, was this Day read the First time.

And some Debate arising thereupon;

Resolved, &c. That Leave be given for the bringing in a new Bill touching the Arrears of the Excise, upon the present Debates of the House this Morning.

Deane Forest.

Sir Charles Harbord did this Day deliver in a Report of the Sub Committee, in Writing, touching Deane Forest; and the Grant of Sir John Wintour; by which he makes Claim to the Trees of the said Forest: Which Report was read, and was as followeth; viz.

A PERUSAL was made of the Survey of 38, being the Foundation of Sir John Wintour's Patent; and in That Survey then was found, and returned, 61,928 Tons of Timber, and 105,557 other Trees.

Upon this Return he contracted with the late King, That in Consideration of * in Hand, as a Fine, and 16,000l. per Annum, for Six Years, payable at Michaelmas, and the Annunciation, for the Wood and Timber, and 8,000l. lent, to be repaid; and also a Fee Farm Rent of 1,950l. 12s. 8d. payable to the Crown for ever; upon these Considerations Sir John Wintour had granted him in 39, not only all the Timber, and Wood, excepting 15,000 Ton, reserved to the King; but also 18,000 Acres of Soil, set out by his Majesty's Surveyor General, and others, by Treaty, with some of the Country; which might, as appears by some of the Surveys, be estimated at 5 s. per Acre (which amounts to 4,500l. per Annum); and also Power to execute the Forest Laws, upon all Dissenters, in their own Lands; and to receive to himself, his Heirs, and Assigns, all such Fines, arising by the Forest Courts:

And had further Power to make Parishes, and erect Churches, and to endow them; and also grant Exemptions from all publick Services of the Country, for his Tenants and Servants:

And also, all Privileges and Royalties, as of the Royal Fishing within the River of Severn, &c.:

And also, all the Trees growing on the 4,000 Acres set out to the Country; and those standing on the Park of Whitemeade, containing near Three hundred Acres (the only thing the King reserved to himself, then, of the Soil):

All the Royal Right to all Royal Mines, and Treasure-trove;

The King reserving nothing to himself but the said 15,000 Tons: And upon this Condition; That what was short of that Proportion, should be made good by Sir John, at 9s. per Ton; or the King to take more at that Rate, if he pleased.

But Sir John Wintour had absolute Power to cut down, and grub, all the Trees, Saplings, and Underwoods, and to convert the Soil to what use he pleased, notwithstanding.

A Statute made 35° Henrici VIIIi, intituled, An Act for Preservation of Wood;

Another 13° Eliz. intituled, No Timber shall be felled for making of Coals of Iron Works:

Another Statute 27° Eliz. intituled, No New Mill shall be made in Sussex, Surrey, Kent, no good Timber shall be consumed with making of Iron:

Another Statute 1° Jac. intituled, The Duty of Tanners, Curriers, and others, Cutting of Leather, and all other Statutes and Proclamations whatsoever:

And also a Non obstante against any Grant made by any of his Majesty's Predecessors, and against Two other Statutes, the one 1° Henrici 4ti, 18° Henrici 6ti.

Upon Consideration of the Premises, the Committee may please to observe, that by this Return of 38, far short of that of 41, which (it seems, is not to be found), 46,928 Tons of Timber, over and above the 15,000 Tons, reserved for the Navy (which certainly was useful for the Navy, and some for lesser Vessels), was granted to Sir John Wintour.

£ s. d.
Which 46,928 Tons of Timber, at 13s. 4d. per Ton, amounts to 31,285 6 8
The Soil, being 18,000 Acres, at 5s. per Acre, amounting to 4,500l. per Annum, and he being but to pay 1,950l. 12s. 8d. the Remainder is 2,550l. per Annum; which, at Sixteen Years Purchase, amounts to 40,800l.: Which 18,000 Acres are worth, as aforesaid 40,800 - -
There was found 150,808 Cords of Wood; which, at 10s. per Cord, amounts to 75,404 - -
The Whole amounts unto 147,489 6 8
And he was to pay but 106,000 - -
Besides the Rent.

And the Committee may further please to observe,

1. The unavoidable Destruction of Timber and Wood, by such a Grant; That being the most proper and apt Soil in the Kingdom, for the speedy raising of Ship Timber.

2. How dangerous a Consequence it may be of, that any Subject should enjoy Privileges of so vast an Extent, as were passed in this Patent; as the Power of inflicting the Penalty of Forest Laws upon all Dissenters, for Trespasses committed upon their own Lands, &c.

3. Lastly, They represent the Illegality of this Patent; which confers all those ample Powers, notwithstanding several Statutes therein recited to the contrary.

The Second Patent hath no Consideration, but a Surrender of the former: And grants to Sir John Wintour all the Wood and Timber growing on the 18,000 Acres, excepting the Under-wood, and the Use of the King's Iron-works: Which said Wood and Timber, as appears by a Survey made 1662, amounts as followeth:

The Number of Oaks 25,929.
The Number of Beaches 4,204.
In all 30,233 Trees.

Whereof in Cord Wood 60,786 ¾ Long Cord.

And out of all these Trees, excepted for the Use of the Navy, only 11,335 Tons, 30 Feet.

He had also granted him 10,000 Cord of Wood, which lay blown down in the Lea Baily; which was never within his Grant at all; with Power to cut down all the Trees aforesaid in Six Years; and to convert it into Coals; excepting the said 11,335 Tons of Timber; and, for what shall fall short, to allow 15s. per Ton: But his Lease is for Eleven Years.

And because there is no Care taken, that whensoever he makes any Falls, that he should clear that Place, to preserve the young Shoots; for Want whereof the Commissioners were of Opinion, that all the Saplings must be destroyed this Eleven Years, be his Men never so careful (which is directly against his Majesty's Intention to have it immediately made a Nursery for Timber and Wood); This sole Consideration makes the Sub Committee humbly of Opinion, That this Grant is not fit to be continued.

All the former Non-obstantes continued in this Patent.

And upon Perusal of the Commission, and Return made the last Year, we find, that the Commissioners were positively of Opinion, and did advise his Majesty to reassume the Grant, and to take it into his own Hands; and do very particularly, in their Return, certify the yearly Profit will accrue to his Majesty; which, overand-above all Charges whatsoever, will amount unto,

l. s. d.
Profits of Dean Forest, if in his Majesty's Hands, clear above all Charges 6,257 5 4

And will continue so for ever, as the said Commissioners affirm, inclosing 14,000 Acres for a Nursery for Wood and Timber: And

Sub Committee desire the said Certificate may be perused by the Committee.

Sir John Wintour and his Counsel were called in to the Bar of this House: And, being heard, as to the Consideration and Execution of his Grant, did withdraw.

And the House then took the Matter into Debate: And the Report, returned in from the Committee of the Revenue being read;

The Question being put, That Mr. Pett be called in;

It passed in the Negative.

The Question being put, To agree with the Committee, in the Matter by them reported, touching Deane Forest;

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Resolved, &c. That it be referred to the same Committee for his Majesty's Revenue, to examine and state Sir John Wintour's Account, what is due to him, and what Recompence is fit to be given him, and by what Means it may be raised; and to make such Proposals for preserving the Timber, and providing Nurseries for Increase of Timber in the Forest of Deane, for the future, as they shall find necessary: and to certify how the 5,000£. per Annum may be raised, for a Revenue to his Majesty; and to expedite their Report therein to the House.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Justinian Lewen and Sir Thomas Estcourt;

Bp. of Winchester's Leasing.

Mr. Speaker, The Lords have sent you a Bill to enable the Bishop of Winchester to lease out the Tenements now built upon the Scite of his Mansion House, in the Parish of St. Saviours in Southwarke in the County of Surrey; and the Two Parks and other Demesnes at Bishop's Waltham, and other Lands in the County of Southampton: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House: And

Killigrew's, &c. Nat.

They have commanded us to acquaint you, That they have agreed to the Bill for naturalizing Charlottel Hessen Killigrew, and others.


Ordered, That all Committees be adjourned, till Four of the Clock this Afternoon.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight of the Clock.