Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 9, 1667-1687. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.
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'House of Commons Journal Volume 9: 2 June 1675', in Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 9, 1667-1687, (London, 1802) pp. 350-351. British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/commons-jrnl/vol9/pp350-351 [accessed 1 March 2024]
Mercurii, 2 die Junii, 1675.
Reasons for Conference on Mr. Onslowe's Case.
SIR Thomas Lee reports from the Committee appointed to draw up Reasons to be offered at a Conference to be had with the Lords, upon the Subject Matter of what was delivered by the Lords at the last Conference, several Reasons agreed by the Committee: Which he read, and delivered in at the Clerk's Table: And the same being twice read, were, upon the Question, agreed.
A further Reason was tendered, to be added to the former: Which was once read: And being debated;
Ordered, That * * Sir Richard Temple, Mr. Vaughan, and Sir Tho. Lee, do withdraw, and amend the Reasons upon the Debates of the House.
Which was done; and the Reasons agreed to are as followeth:
THE House of Commons do agree with the Lords, that Conferences between the Two Houses of Parliament are essential to Parliamentary Proceedings, when they are agreed in the usual and Parliamentary Way: But the Manner of the Lords Agreement to a Conference, to have been upon Friday the Twenty-eighth of May last, at Ten of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber, with Limitation and Proviso, was such, as did necessitate the House of Commons to forbear to meet at that Conference; and gave the first Interruption to Parliamentary Proceedings, in Conferences between the Two Houses.
For that the Conference, desired by the Commons, was upon their Privileges concerned in the Answer of the Lords to a Message of the House of Commons, sent to the Lords the Seventeenth of May, in the Case of Mr. Onslowe; the which the Lords did not agree; but did only agree a Conference concerning their Privileges in general, without Reference to the Case of the said Mr. Onslowe, which was the only Subject Matter of the desired Conference.
The Limitation in the Lords Agreement to a Conference, with Proviso, that nothing be offered at the Conference, that may any way concern the Lords Judicature; is, in Effect, a Denial of any Conference at all upon the Subject, upon which it was desired: Which ought not to be.
The Judicature, which the Lords claim in Appeals against a Member of the House of Commons, and the Privilege of that House, in that Case, is so involved, that no Conference can be upon the latter, without some way touching the former.
That this manner of agreeing to a Conference, with any Limitation or Proviso, is against the Course of Proceedings between the Two Houses of Parliament, in coming to Conferences; and doth seem to place a Power in the Managers of such Conferences, to judge whether such Provisoes be broken, or not; and accordingly to proceed, or break off the Conference, upon their own Judgments.
The House of Commons doubt not, but that when the Lords have considered of what is delivered at this Conference, the good Correspondency which the Lords express they desire to continue between the Two Houses, (which the Commons also are no less careful to maintain) will induce them to remove the present Interruption of coming to Conferences; and therefore to agree to the Conference, as it was desired by the House of Commons, upon the Privileges of their House, concerned in the Lords Answer to the Message of the House of Commons, in the Case of Mr. Onslowe.
That the particular Limitation, that nothing be offered at the Conference that may any way concern the Judicature of the Lords, appears unreasonable; for that their Lordships Judicature in Parliament is circumscribed by the Laws of the Land, as to your Proceedings and Judgments, and is, as well as all other Courts, subjected to Parliament.
Defaulters to Call of the House.
The Names of Defaulters being called over, and several Excuses being now allowed, and their Names being struck out of the List;
Ordered, That the Letter, agreed by the House, be sent to the Places where the Members are Defaulters, and their Excuses not allowed.
Address recalling Subjects from France.
Ordered, That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to desire him to issue out a further and fuller Proclamation for recalling his Subjects out of the Service of the French King, and for hindering any more from going over into that Service, by expressing, in such Proclamation, the Time of the Conclusion of the Treaty with the States General of the United Provinces; and by limiting a Time for his Subjects leaving off the Service of the French King; and to injoin the Officers of the several Ports, and all other his Majesty's Officers, to take effectual Care, that no more of his Subjects may go over into that Service: And that his Majesty be further desired, that Notice be given thereof to his Officers and Soldiers, now in the said Service, by such Ways and Means as to his Majesty shall seem meet: And that this Address be presented to his Majesty by the Secretaries of State, Members of this House.
Conference with Lords.
Ordered, That a Conference be desired with the Lords upon the Matter delivered by the Lords at the last Conference: And Sir Edw. Deering is to go up to the Lords, to desire a Conference.
Sir Edw. Deering reports, That he had attended the Lords with the Message of this House, for a Conference, upon the Matters delivered at the last Conference; and that the Lords had agreed to a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber.
Ordered, That the former Managers do manage this Conference.
Sir Thomas Lee reports from the Conference had with the Lords, That they had attended the Conference; and had delivered the Reasons of the House at the said Conference.
Lords desire a Conference.
A Message from the Lords, by the Lord Chief Justice of the Commons Pleas and the Lord Chief Baron;
Mr. Speaker, The Lords desire a Conference with this House, at Ten of the Clock To-morrow Morning, in the Painted Chamber, upon Matters of high Importance, concerning the Dignity of the King, and the Safety of the Government.
And the Messengers being withdrawn;
Resolved, &c. That this House doth agree, that a Conference be had with the Lords To-morrow, at Ten of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber, concerning the Dignity of the King, and the Safety of the Government.
And the Messengers being called in, Mr. Speaker acquainted them, That this House had agreed to a Conference with the Lords To-morrow Morning, Ten of the Clock, as it is desired.
Dismissal of the Serjeant for suffering persons to escape.
The House then called upon Sir James Norfolke, the Serjeant at Arms attending this House, to give an Account of Mr. Serjeant Pemberton, Sir John Churchill, Mr. Serjeant Peck, and Mr. Charles Porter, who were Yesterday committed to his Custody for their Breach of Privilege of this House: Who thereupon informed the House, That he was, by Force, interrupted in the Execution of the Order, and they were escaped from his Custody.
And the Matter being debated; and the House altogether unsatisfied with the Account given, and the Excuse by him made, for not executing the Order of this House;
Committed to the Tower.
Resolved, &c. That Sir James Norfolke, the present Serjeant at Arms attending this House, for betraying his Trust, in not executing his Office, according to the Order of this House, in bringing in Custody Sir John Churchill, Serjeant Pemberton, Serjeant Peck, and Mr. Cha. Porter, to answer the Breach of Privilege against this House, be sent Prisoner to the Tower: And that Mr. Speaker do issue out his Warrant to the Lieutenant of the Tower, for taking him into Custody.
Address for appointing another.
Ordered, That his Majesty be addressed to appoint another Serjeant at Arms to attend this House, in the stead of Sir James Norfolke; he having betrayed his Trust, in not executing his Office, according to the Orders and Direction of this House: And that such Members of this House, as are of his Majesty's Privy Council, do present the Address of this House to his Majesty.
Order for his Apprehension.
Whereas Sir James Norfolke, Serjeant at Arms attending this House, after the Order of this House pronounced for his Commitment to the Tower, did withdraw himself, without Leave of the House; and being not to be found, though Inquiry and Search was made for him;
Ordered, That Robert Read Esquire, the Serjeant at Arms now attending this House pro tempore, by Direction of this House, do apprehend Sir James Norfolke; and bring him to the Bar of this House.
Resolved, &c. That Sir James Norfolke shall not any longer have the Privilege of this House.
Mr. Speaker thanked.
Ordered, That the Thanks of this House be returned to Mr. Speaker, for his great Care of the Honour and Service of this House, in issuing his Warrant for executing the Order of this House, for taking the Persons into Custody, which were committed Yesterday to the Serjeant at Arms.
Warrant for apprehending persons escaped.
Whereas Sir John Churchill, Mr. Serjeant Peck, and Mr. Serjeant Pemberton, were, by virtue of an Order of this House Yesterday, in the Custody of the Serjeant at Arms then attending this House; and, by the Negligence of the said Serjeant, have made their Escape:
Ordered, That Mr. Speaker do issue out his Warrant to Robert Read Esquire, the Serjeant at Arms now attending this House, to bring the said Sir John Churchill, Mr. Serjeant Peck, and Mr. Serjeant Pemberton, in Custody at the Bar of this House To-morrow Morning, Nine of the Clock.
And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight of the Clock.