House of Commons Journal Volume 9: 13 April 1677

Veneris, 13 die Aprilis , 1677.

Lady Mordant's Estate.

A BILL, sent from the Lords, to enable the Right honorable the Lady Mary Mordant to make Sale of her Interest in the Manor of Blechingly, and divers Lands in the County of Surry, notwithstanding her Minority, was read the First time.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill be read a Second time.

Writ for burning Heretics.

The Amendments sent from the Lords, to the Bill for taking away the Writ De hæretico comburendo were twice read; and, upon the Question, agreed.

Recovery of Tythes.

An ingrossed Bill for the more easy Recovery of small Tythes, was read a Third time.

Resolved, &c. That the said Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act for the more easy Recovery of small Tythes.

Address on King's Message.

Sir John Trevor reports from the Committee, to whom it was referred to prepare and draw up a further Address to be presented to his Majesty, and the said Address agreed to by the said Committee: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same was twice read; and, with some Amendments made at the Table, upon the Question, agreed to; and it is as followeth;

May it please Your Most Excellent Majesty,

WE Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal Subjects, the Commons in this present Parliament assembled, do, with great Satisfaction of Mind, observe the Regard Your Majesty is pleased to express to our former Addresses, by intimating to us the late Alteration in Affairs abroad; and do return our most humble Thanks for Your Majesty's gracious Offer made to us thereupon, in Your last Message: And, having taken a serious Deliberation of the same, and of the Preparations Your Majesty hath therein intimated to us were fitting to be made, in order to these publick Ends; we have, for the present, provided a Security, in a Bill for an additional Duty of Excise; upon which Your Majesty may raise the Sum of Two hundred thousand Pounds: And, if Your Majesty shall think fit to call us together again for this Purpose, in some short time after Easter; by any publick Signification of Your Majesty's Pleasure commanding our Attendance, we shall, at our next Meeting, not only be ready to reimburse Your Majesty what Sums of Money shall be expended upon such extraordinary Preparations as shall be made in pursuance of our former Addresses; but shall likewise, with most chearful Hearts, proceed, both then, and at all other times, to furnish Your Majesty with so large Proportions of Assistances and Supplies upon this Occasion, as may give Your Majesty and the whole World an ample Testimony of our Loyalties and Affections to Your Majesty's Service; and may enable your Majesty, by the Help of Almighty God, to maintain such stricter Alliances as You shall have entered into, against all Opposition whatsoever.

Ordered, That such Members of this House as are of his Majesty's Privy Council, be desired to know his Majesty's Pleasure, when he will be attended with the said Address.

Standish's Estate.

An ingrossed Bill to enable Trustees to sell Lands for Payment of the Debts of Edward Standish Esquire, was read a Third time.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act to enable Trustees to sell Lands for Payment of the Debts of Edward Standish Esquire.

Lords Amendments to Supply Bill.

Sir Thomas Meres reports from the Committee to whom it was referred to prepare and draw up Reasons for not agreeing with the Lords to the Amendments to the Bill for raising the Sum of Five hundred Eighty-four thousand Nine hundred Seventy-eight Pounds Two Shillings Twopence Halfpeny, for the speedy Building Thirty Ships of War, several Reasons agreed by the Committee: Which he read in his Place; and after, delivered the same at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were Twice read; and, upon the Question, agreed; and are as followeth:

The Commons have desired this Conference, to preserve a good Correspondence with the House of Peers; and to offer such Reasons as have moved the Commons to disagree with your Lordships, in those Amendments that were sent down by your Lordships, to a Bill, intituled, An Act for raising the Sum of Five hundred Eighty-four thousand Nine hundred Seventy-eight Pounds Two Shillings Two-pence Halfpeny, for the speedy Building Thirty Ships of War.

First, To answer such Reasons as have been offered by your Lordships at the last Conference, the Commons observe, That your Lordships have founded most of your Arguments upon this Distinction; That where the Account of any Aid granted in Parliament hath been required by the said Acts to be made in Parliament, in order only to the Auditing, Passing and Discharging of the said Account, that there it hath been reserved to the Commons only: But where the same hath been required, in order to the Examination and Punishment of any Misapplication or Misdemeanor, There your Lordships conceive yourselves equally, if not more eminently, intituled to such an Account: And, by this Rule, you are pleased to construe the Two Statutes of the One-and-twentieth of King James, and the Statute of the Nineteenth of Charles the Second, Cap. 9th, intituled, Accompts of several Sums of Money, how to be taken: Which Distinction the Commons cannot in any ways allow: Nor will the same appear to be warranted by the said Statutes; for these Reasons;

For that, though your Lordships have a Judicial Power vested in you, upon Complaint or Impeachment of the House of Commons, upon any Misapplication or Misdemeanor committed by any of the Persons intrusted by this Bill; yet your Lordships are altogether improper to take Cognizance thereof originally, or by way of Inquiry, or otherwise than in a Judicial way: And although your Lordships, in your Legislative Capacity, may have Right to require any Account, upon Record, to be brought before you, for your Information; which Privilege the Commons conceive your Lordships are not intitled thereby, in your Judicial Capacity, to proceed thereupon, unless the same had been brought regularly before you in a Judicial way: For that such an early Inquiry or Examination might prepossess and anticipate your Lordships Judgments, as to any Impeachment or Complaint of the House of Commons against such Offenders; and consequently render the Account, reserved hereby to the Commons, to be of little or no Use for the Ends for which it was chiefly designed.

For that the Statute of the One-and-twentieth of King James before-mentioned did require such Accompt to be given to the Commons, not only in order to the Determining and Discharge of such Accompt, but also, and principally, for the Punishment of such Misdemeanors, that should be committed by any of the Persons intrusted in the Receiving, Issuing, or disposing of the said Monies, as will appear by the very Words of the Act; all their Dealings, Doings, and Proceedings, being made examinable and determinable by the Commons; and, in case of the Offence of a Commoner, to be imprisoned in the Tower by the Commons; and, of an Offence by a Peer, upon Presentment of such Offence by the Commons, to be imprisoned by the Peers; and, both in case of the Commons and Peers, to undergo such further Punishment as to Justice shall appertain, according to the Quality of the Offence: Which clearly proves, that the said Act, was not only to pass and discharge the Accompt, but for the Punishment of Misdemeanors; and is a full and clear Precedent for the Commons in this Point: And as for the Act of the Nineteenth of this King, they desire your Lordships would observe, that That Act was only to erect a Commission with extraordinary Powers, to take an Account of Monies that had been already given, and not made accomptable by the Grants thereof to the Parliament: And the Accompt only of the Commissioners Doings and Proceedings therein was by them to be given to the King's Majesty, and both Houses of Parliament; for their Information and Satisfaction; and so it is declared in the very Preamble of the said Act: Which Precedent the Commons conceive not at all applicable to the Matter in hand.

They further offer to your Lordships, that the Grant of all Aids to the King is by the Commons; and that the Terms, Conditions, Limitations and Qualifications of such Grants have been made by the Commons only.

And further, That, the Returning of such an Accompt to the Lords, the Commons not only conceive it altogether improper for the Reasons aforesaid, in order to the Punishment of Offenders; but also as it may relate, in case of a good Disposition and Management, to the Encouragement of granting further or greater Aids to the King, it doth properly belong to the Commons only; since your Lordships do allow, that such Aids can only begin and be enlarged by the Commons.

And, lastly, we find, That the Act of the One-andtwentieth of King James is not the first Precedent, whereby the Accompt of Monies given was reserved only to the Commons.

Conference desired with Lords.

Ordered, That a Conference be desired with the Lords, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference: And that Sir Richard Temple doth go up to the Lords to desire the same.

Sir Richard Temple acquaints the House, That the Lords had agreed to a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, as desired.

Ordered, That those Members that did attend and manage the former Conference, do attend and manage this Conference.

Sir Thomas Meres acquaints the House, That they had attended; and had delivered the Reasons for not agreeing to the Lords Amendments to the Bill, intituled, An Act for raising the Sum of Five hundred Eighty-four thousand Nine hundred Seventy-eight Pounds Two Shillings Twopence Halfpeny, for the Speedy Building Thirty Ships of War.

Supply Bill; Excise.

An ingrossed Bill to continue the additional Duty of Excise for Three Years, was read a Third time.

Sir John Trevor reports from The Committee to whom it was referred to prepare and draw up a Clause, to be added to the said Bill; to enable his Majesty to raise the Sum of Two hundred thousand Pounds, at Seven Pounds per Cent; a Clause agreed by the Committee: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table.

And the same being there thrice read;

Resolved, &c. That the said Clause be made Part of the Bill.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act for an additional Excise upon Beer, Ale, and other Liquors, for Three Years: And that Sir John Trevor do carry up the Bill to the Lords; and do also put their Lordships in mind of the Bill, sent from this House, for suppressing the Growth of Popery.

Bills sent from Lords.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Miles Cooke and Sir John Frankelin;

Mr. Speaker, The Lords have sent you down Two Bills; the one intituled, An Act for the better Observation of the Lord's Day, commonly called Sunday; the other intituled, An Act for the more effectual suppressing of unlicensed Books and Pamphlets: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House: And have commanded us further to acquaint you, That they have agreed to the Bill for the Repair of the Piers of Great Yarmouth, without any Amendments.

Observation of Sunday.

An ingrossed Bill, sent from the Lords, intituled, An Act for the better Observation of the Lord's Day, commonly called Sunday, was read.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill be read a Second time.

Incestuous Marriages.

An ingrossed Bill sent from the Lords, intituled, An Act for preventing incestuous Marriages, was read.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill be read a Second time.

King appoints to be attended.

Mr. Secretary Williamson acquaints the House, That it was his Majesty's Pleasure, that this House should attend him presently, at... Banquetting-house at Whitehall, with the Address.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight of the Clock.