Debates in 1679: May 12th-14th

Monday, May 12.

Sir John Trevor reports from the Committee of Lords, &c. That the Committee of Commons desired to see the Commission of the Lord High Steward, and that the Lords would consider of a longer time for Tryal of the Lords, till matters could be adjusted. The Lords would make no Answer to that of the Bishops presence at the Lords Tryals, "as they had no Commission to treat of that matter;" so we know not what Resolution the Lords have taken in it. The Lords said, "That it was impossible the Lords could be tried to-morrow." That as to the Commission of the Lord Steward, it was but ordinary, and that he had no power as Steward, but as a Speaker, and pro hâc vice, for it was a Court of Lords, and not a High Steward's Court, as in the Parliament-Roll, 10 Edw. I, concerning Indictments of a Peer. They said, "they would make known the several Propositions to the Lords;" so the Lords adjourned their Committee, and the Commons did the same (fn. 1).

Sir Thomas Littleton.] The Lords did declare, "That the Tryals did not depend upon the King's nominating a High Steward, for they had proceeded to try if the King had not nominated a High Steward.

Sir Robert Carr.] When there is a Lord High Steward nominated out of Parliament, he is Judge of the Court, and does not vote; but in a Court of Lords he gives his Vote as other Peers.

Mr Sacheverell.] There is another thing very material. The Lord Chancellor, or the Lord President, declared, "that, in several Tryals, as that of Lord Strafford's Tryal, there was no special Commission to the Lord High Steward; and the Lords apprehended that the Commons meant no otherwise than to keep the Judicature as it was, and they will show you the Commissions to-morrow."

Mr Powle.] The Lord Chancellor said, "The Lord Steward of the King's Houshold, if present, ought to be, (the Duke of Ormond,) but being absent, they appointed a High Steward.

Mr Hampden.] The nature of the Court is not altered if there be no High Steward appointed.

The Officers of the Ordnance attending (according to Order) were called in. Then the Speaker addressed himself thus to Sir Jonas More: "There is a great Train of Artillery shipped from the Tower. The House would know upon what account, and whether that Train was assigned the last year?"

Sir Jonas More.] The Store-keeper will inform you, that they were for land service; twenty were provided, and eight more to be sent, which are not ready. I am Surveyor of the Ordnance; the Store-keeper will tell you farther.

Mr Sherborne, the Store-keeper.] They were designed for Flanders, and the King ordered them to be sent to Portsmouth for the better security of that Garrison; it is not all shipped, but most are aboard; the equipage is not yet shipped, but all is by the King's particular Warrant for this service upon small ships.

The King's Warrant was read, viz. "For the use of the Fort at Portsmouth (fn. 2)."

[Debate.]

Mr Garraway.] These are not pieces of battery, they are small field-pieces. I would know what use there was of that equipage for the Fort of Portsmouth?

Colonel Legge, Governor of Portsmouth.] These are designed for breast-works to prevent any surprize, and the harness is but what is absolutely necessary to the pieces. You ought to have it for all the Ports opposite to France, to prevent any landing, and it is necessary at Plymouth also. An estimate is to be given in to the Council of all the charges of pay, and what relates to the Garrison, and for the Isle of Wight.

Mr Bennet.] If these things are useful for the security of the Fort, &c. there is an end; if not, it is for some other purpose. I would only be satisfied in that.

Mr Trenchard.] Before the Plot, there were 10,000 arms sent out of the Tower, without any account given, of to what purpose they were sent.

Sir Gilbert Gerrard.] By Legge's advice to the Duke of Monmouth, the Train of Artillery was sent to Portsmouth, a Garrison of ancient standing, in case of landing; but has the Militia been made any use of for the defence of the Nation? Those little guns signify little for defence of the place—I wish the great guns there are not out of order. Legge is a servant of the Duke of York, and he that will hazard his Brother's life, and have a hand in such things as were reported you yesterday, what will he do, if he comes to the Crown? I have reason to be jealous; and we having no Army in being, and a Train of Artillery, I must suspect an Army to land to support Popery, &c.

Colonel Legge.] Ten times that proportion of Artillery will not serve a land Army. But finding there were jealousies, &c. I desired an Order to send them to Plymouth. I am the Duke of York's servant, and I will serve him affectionately, but I have been bred amongst them that speak no language but my own, and I will live and die a Protestant, and am as loyal as my family has always been.

Mr Papillon.] If there be no need of these arms at Portsmouth, they might as well stay at London as be removed to Plymouth. The thing looks a little odd to me.

Sir Thomas Player.] If I have a master that betrays his Country, and treats with foreign Princes to endanger the life of my sovereign, I will not serve such a master— (the Duke of York.) You are told, "these pieces, &c. were for the benefit of the Country, in case of landing, &c." But the Militia has not been useful, and is put into such hands as are dangerous. The Officers of the Ordnance contracted with the Gunsmiths for repairing arms, and they owe them 10,000l. but never paid them. If you examine the Tower, I believe there are not two thousand good arms left. That there were within twelve months great quantities carried out, is most true. Examine the State of England, and look upon every thing that belongs to your security, and you will find it weak and decayed. It is not well to encourage trifling complaints; but I would refer it to a Committee.

Colonel Legge.] I know not of above 20,000l. of the Money for the French War, that came into the Office of the Ordnance; all the rest has been diverted for the Gunsmiths—I believe that is true.

Mr Sacheverell.] I am for calling in the Officers, to ask them some farther Questions that were proposed the last Parllament. All the time we were at Peace with the Dutch, there was Powder, Ammunition, and Ordnance sent to the French King. It will be proved, that the Ordnance that played before Valenciennes, and the Powder pretended to be sent to Jersey, was sent into France. I know not why there should be a land Train of Artillery for a Garrison, unless it be to go against the Country. The Powder was pretended to be ill Powder here, and therefore sold to the French; but it was good Powder there, and they have left us no Ammunition nor Artillery.

Colonel Titus.] It is strange that such vast sums of Money have been given, and the Nation never in a more defenc-less condition. At this rate, every Garrison in England may want such a Train of Artillery. So many thousand pounds for secret service! Surely that was not for the Ordnance. Till you make enquiry into these miscarriages, you will never be safe. As for this matter of Portsmouth, I would refer it to a Committee, that the several Officers may inform you in what conditions the Garrisons are.

[Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to examine the account, this day delivered to this House, of the Train of Artillery now shipping off for Portsmouth; and to examine what Arms have been lately delivered out of the Tower; and what Guns, Mortarpieres, Powder, or other Ammunition, have been sold, or sent over into France and Flanders, or any other foreign parts; and to enquire of the state of all the Garrisons in England; and how they are fortified and provided; and how the Money, by a late Act designed to the Office of Ordnance, hath been employed; as also the Money allowed for particular Garrisons and Fortifications; and report the same, with their opinion thereon, to the House.]

[May 13, omitted.]

Wednesday, May 14.

Mr Powle delivered a Message from the King, and said, "It is not my province to deliver a Message from his Majesty, but Mr Secretary Coventry is gone sick into the Country."—He opened not the Message, but delivered it in writing to the Speaker, to this effect:

"Charles R.

"Though his Majesty hath already, at the first meeting in Parliament, and since, by a word or two, mentioned the necessity of having a Fleet at sea this Summer, yet, the Season for preparing it being far advanced, and our neighbours before us in their preparations, he cannot hold himself discharged towards his people, if he do not now, with more earnestness, again recommend the same to your present care and consideration; and the rather, from the daily expectation of the return of the Fleet from the Streights; to which a great arrear is due: And he must acquit himself of the ill consequences, which the want of a Fleet in such a juncture may produce; and he hath not done this without considering, that the entering on this great work presently can be no hindrance to the other great affairs upon your hands, but rather a security in the dispatch thereof."

[Debate.]

Mr Powle.] If the Secretary had delivered this Message, he would have opened it better in some particulars. I will crave leave to open it, in his place. The King says, "It is absolutely necessary there should be a Fleet this Summer against foreign attempts, &c." And there is cause to apprehend danger; and at this time, his appearing with a Fleet will be of the greatest concern abroad, because all Alliances, since the Peace, are going upon a new foot, and none will ally with us, and lose this opportunity of a Peace, without a Guarantee; which will signify nothing if Princes see we have no Fleet nor Ports; and they may possibly go to another Alliance. The Customs, which the King desires should be appropriated for the future to the Navy, are so far engaged, and anticipated, that it is impossible, for the present, they should do any thing towards it. If the King could do it, he would not have sent you this Message, but it is impossible for him to do it out of his own Revenue. Sir John Narborough's Fleet is in Arrear, and now coming home. And seamen, without hopes of pay, will run into disorders, and so lose the opportunity of manning out a Fleet this Summer; so that the King desires you to take it into consideration, before it be too late.

Mr Sacheverell.] If the case be as Powle has opened it, its prospect is much more melancholy than I apprehended it. If now we have no Alliances, nor Guarantees for the Peace, all this while; if they who have made this Peace have no Guarantee, they have betrayed us all; and if so, they are as criminal as the Lords in the Tower. Now we must speak plain. The King has chosen a new Council, and has told us, "That without them he will act nothing." They are Gentlemen of ability, worth, and interest to serve him; and in this first step they represent to the King, that this House should be so like the last, that now we are in the height of our affairs, and about to settle the condition of our being; to give Money to enable the doing the same things again, now we are in the height of our business!—This House is for the security of England, and let us not put it out of our power to do it. This Money demanded may serve them to spend till October; and when you have given it, you may be sent home with a brand of your folly into the Country. They ask you now, a Summer-guard, and yet were in sufficient security last Summer and Winter. Are all the Ships we tricked out with Stores, and all the Revenue brangled? I expected that the Duke of Lauderdale would have been removed, &c. but we have had no Answer to our Address. Once give your Money, and fairly part, and the Lords in the Tower will not be tryed, and nothing done. If you be not secure at home, it is no end to think of abroad. If these men, that have the eyes of the Nation, look no better to affairs abroad, you are at an end. You are to do at home, rather than make provision against we know not whom. Let them take off Anticipations from the Customs—You are told of "the Arrears of Sir John Narborough's Fleet"— It is not above 200,000l. extraordinary, and that is all the danger, but if you give Money, you are sent home presently. Let us look to secure things at home, and then it is time to talk of this.

Mr Garroway.] This is a great surprize to me, to ask for Money now. The King recommended three things to you in his Speech. The first of disbanding the Army. You have done the other about prosecution of the Plot, in which you have found all the obstruction in the world, which makes people think you are not fairly dealt with. —Somebody is in the Plot, whom we see not. As for the Navy, &c. if the Revenue be anticipated, as we are told, let us bring in a Bill to cut them off, and make them refund. If the Money was not given where it should be, we are unfortunate to give Money, and have not that issue we hoped for, and to let that hold go. Till we have some issue of our expectations, I would take nothing into consideration about Money—Let them that it belongs to look to it. When Narborough's Fleet comes home, one month's assessment may do that. I would not now charge the people, and put Money into those hands who have so ill managed it, at this time.

Mr Powle.] It is not my intention to argue for miscarriage, which has been great, and intolerable. If it had not been so, you had not had the great man (Danby) in the Tower. It is not the King's intention to shelter the faults of other men, and you may represent to him the miscarriages, &c. But it is not your duty to leave the Crown in this misfortune; and nothing can bring the King out of it but the advice of this House, and the King will take it. If this can be done without Money, I had much rather concur with that. Consider the state of the Navy. There is a debt of 400,000l. Tallies upon the Customs; if this be fit to be thrown off, you may, without any man's property being hurt. I am so far of opinion, that it will never be well with the Nation, till the Customs are appropriated to the use of the Navy, and not in the power of the great Officers to anticipate, or pawn them, and leave the Navy unprovided. I press you only to consider to give the King true Advice what to do in this matter, and of that you cannot longer defer the consideration. I declare my opinion. Consider what Advice you will give the King; if there come any ill accident, I hope it will never be said, "That the Kingdom shall suffer for want of the Advice of this House."

Mr Whorwood.] I am much better satisfied with the Motion, from the person that delivered it, (Powle,) and that he might be of our opinion, if he were not in the place he now is in, viz. a Privy Counsellor. It is my opinion, he is the same man in his heart. But if any man was in that station (or figure, as the new word is) something of this nature must be done. But give Money, and enslave us again, and let the Navy go where it will. It has been the design to expose us without a Navy. We have so sad an account of the Stores, that it is a wonder who has governed the Nation all this while, whether French men or women. These seven years, there has been no person to blame but the King. "The King's Warrant, the King's Command." I will obey my King; but had I obeyed the King as some have done, I had been fitter to have been sent for and hanged up, than have been one minute in the House of Commons. Still the same persons govern; though there are many worthy persons of the Council, yet it is at the old pass. They will get the Money, and then go hang yourselves. I had the ill fortune to please so many in what I said the last parliament, upon such an occasion as this, that I was not sent to the Tower, as a Gentleman in my eye would have had it. I heard two talking together last Parliament; says one "What news?" "None that is good for any thing; they talk in the Parliament, but they give Money; and when that is done, they may go home, and cool their toes." And give Money now, and we shall be at the same pass. Now, when I see this worthy person (Powle) of the Council, and things go on at the same pass, I see that new men do not mend them, but possibly they are worse. Pray, let us have some reason why the Duke of Lauderdale is not removed, &c. It may be said, "The King will not do it." Still so much is laid upon the King, that I wonder how he can bear it. I wish any body would tell him so. I have talked freely of this to the King. I have had the honour to speak to my Prince, as much as any Privy Counsellor of them all. And I believe he would hear me now, if I went to him. (Many cried out, "Go, go.") If the thing was represented to the King by such of the House of Commons as are not afraid to lose their places, it would make impression upon him. But we have no Answer about the Duke of Lauderdale, Affirmative or Negative, and we know not what to trust to. And as for the Tryal of Danby's Pardon, &c. I hear the Bishops must sit. If they come to try life and death, I fear few Traytors will go to pot. But let us go on gradatim, step by step, till we satisfy the people of England; else it is not Money that will do it. To give Money now, is so derogatory to your honour, till the Lords in the Tower are tryed, that you cannot answer it. For Mr Bertie, the other day, to tell you "He obeyed the King's command," in so vile a thing as the concealment of the Pensioners, to betray their fellow subjects!—The King will never do it. Let us know whether he have that Book or not. I insist upon that Book. I dare say, they had as many at their beck, the last Parliament, to go out, or stay in, on any occasion, as there were true honest people. Let us now know them: I pray God, there be not some amongst us still. But pray let us have that Book. But we are told of 450,000l. Anticipations upon the Customs; if it be for the good of the Nation, pay the debt; but if for Jack Straw, and I know not what, does any man think you will give Money to maintain such people? If it be not reasonable to admit these things, let us have a Bill to take off so much of these Anticipations, as will pay the King's debt. Enter into the bottom of these things, before we enter into one tittle of consideration of the Ships.

Mr Booth.] I do not wonder that Money is asked of us to-day. I rather wonder it was not asked sooner. The last Parliament seemed, in what they did, to be of the opinion of the Nation, but it was the treachery of a great many. Money is the worst thing at this time to be granted; nothing can tend more to our ruin; and if not so employed, I expect it will be to men and women, as if it was intended to debase the Nobility and Gentry of the Nation. Let us see them reassume the Crown-lands that have been given away, and Pensions taken off from the Revenue; let us see justice done upon the Treasurer, the prisoners executed, Lauderdale removed, Religion secured, and the Fleet purged from Papists. I hope we shall not pay twice for one Fleet, as we have done twice for disbanding one Army. I hope you will not give any Money now.

Sir Nicholas Carew.] I will not rip up miscarriages, but would have you think what is fit to be done. Here has been an alteration of Privy Counsellors, but still here is the same lump of leaven left; these may be turned out, and the former may return, like the dog to his vomit. We know who took in all the Officers, &c. which occasioned our Vote on Sunday last. I would not let this matter die. sine die. But there is a greater thing to be done first. The Lords in the Tower are to be tryed, and we are to be secured against Popery, not only for our lives but for poste ity. These things clearly done, I would then consider of the Fleet, and set the King at ease, and take it into consideration.

Mr Bennet] I would not discourage the King, as if the House would not give Money; bnt not do it till things are in better order. But I expected that Powle would have told us, that Lauderdale was gone. They say he is gone but to Ham (fn. 3). I hope he will remind the King of it, by what he hears said here. But because the King does anticipate the Revenue every six months, must you pay it? Whoever trusts upon such ill bottoms as the Customs, set apart by Act of Parliament for the Fleet, I would void all their debts, and when the King pays 30 per Cent. we must pay it, and be absolute beggars. If you pay 12d. for every 6d. we our spend our Money, and shall be reduced to the condition of the Spanish Monarchy. I differ from Booth, not to consider of it at all; but when the condition of the Navy is reported, then I would consider of the Motion, if it be in order to consider that the Customs are already given for the use of the Navy, and how they are anticipated. But of this in due time.

Mr Boscawen.] This is a matter of great moment of the Fleet. This House has not been wanting to supply it, and will not be wanting for the time to come, if we can have good assurance—But before you enter upon this consideration, see that the Army be disbanded. The Motion was made moderately and with consideration. But I believe the House is disposed to supply in due time, but not now, till we see what the Lords will do, and have a Report from the Committee; and there can be no umbrage, that the House will refuse the King Money for the Fleet, when they are assured that it will be employed the right way.

Sir Robert Howard.] Since the King has had a new Council, you have had Messages from him of other stamps and natures than before. I would not have that reflection upon them; not only the Revenue is extremely anticipated. In 1674, I gave you in a paper of the state of the Revenue. In 1675, I charged the Treasurer, &c. before the Lords of the Council. In 1676, he charged me; but the Exchequer has been managed in such an extravagant way, that the Nation is at the mercy of the Money-lenders, what to do with it. Had Common Law been observed in it, things had not come to this pass. There is not a 12d. due of the Revenue to find the King bread for a year (fn. 4). Anticipations and Patents are abroad, and 20 per Cent. is a moderate thing for interest. This can never be well settled but by Parliament-bargain, and I believe the House will receive satisfaction. No Fleet will gratify those that have a mind to have us destroyed. I would adjourn the Debate to a day certain; therefore I move it; and in the mean time debate what observations have been before this. Stat all, and then Money will come much better, and more easily.

Colonel Birch.] The truth is, the consideration before you is so amazing to me, in relation to circumstances, that it looks too big to take hold of, for me to express myself upon. There is from that Honourable Person (Powle) a desire from the King of Money for fitting out the Fleet; but particularly to pay off Sir John Narborough's men, &c. I am amazed that this is our condition. Whoever advised this did not think of the Act of Parliament last year. There was Money, and what was that 200,000l. but for Money the King had laid out before, for preparations for the War against France? the Navy, &c. next the Princess of Orange's Portion, and for fitting out a Fleet. The Customs, that year, were 600,000l. and yet there wanted 200,000l. more for setting out the Fleet for a War with France. The House had then an account, that not a Ship but was ready, within some few of ninety, and all in perfect order. It was said then, "That the Customs might bear some part of the charge." But Money was requisite in satisfaction of them, and 200,000l. was given to set all in order. And now I appeal to them that gave us that account of the Ordnance. Their own account was taken, and this Money was to do all the work, pay the men, and 60,000l. over to spare for another time for stores. All this is entered into your Journal. I speak this only, that Gentlemen may see our condition. And now we are told, "That the Navy is twenty or twenty two months behind-hand, and thirty due to Sir John Narborough." Still we see, the more Money we give, the more streights we are in; had we given none, we could not have been in worse condition than now. This very Money was given for the Navy; and there could not be any Warrant for any other use for it by Act of Parliament. Having said this, if you cannot mend the matter, it is strange. The Excise Office has a Million of Money Anticipation. Let it come from what hand it will, we are in such a condition, that we know not how to secure ourseives. Now the Question is, what is to be done? This year, no extraordinary Fleet can be set out. The Customs do nothing at all, and for all this we are farther behind-hand than ever. But with submission, I think it is not on the part of the House to come to this, but on the King's part; but without adjourning the Debate, I would vote to supply the King with such sums, as are for the safety of the Nation, &c. But I shall tell you what to do next. But what will you do with Narborough's Fleet? Suppose you suspend the Customs upon the Revenue, for some months; if 100, or 200,000l. Pensions may be stayed, for this purpose. But I must not stay here; we are told of a general Peace, and can have no Alliances without a Fleet. This has been cried out upon, two or three years ago; and if there be no Alliances made now, who will meddle with us? Though we are under a Protestant Prince, yet, till the World know, whether Protestant or Papist shall be uppermost in England, nobody will meddle with us. If England ever subsist, it must be under a Protestant interest, and that will never be, till the King puts himself beyond retreat. If the King comes not up to Sunday's Vote, it is not standing upon it whether they hang the Priests or not. If there be Popish Officers in the Fleet, and till it appear clearly to the World that the Government is against all Papists, and you go through with it, till then, neither King nor Kingdom can be safe, and this is for the King, and not you, to do. And I would give no Money till we know whether we shall be Papists or Protestants, whether live or die. After the House did signify what they want, by what you did last Sunday, either it will extirpate the Protestant Religion, or extirpate the old man you talk of. My opinion is, the King knows where the sore place is, and he will agree with you in Sunday's Vote, and extirpate Popery; and I would say, I will supply the King, and let the World see it, and those that trust you see it.

Mr Garroway.] I differ from Birch. I am not for misleading the House, in a previous Vote. That is the way to be catched by surprize. To break in now, when the people have no satisfaction, and the Navy might have supported itself by what you gave—Let it not be construed here, but by a sober Debate, and not go off without a Question; but such a Question as the King may know where we are. I will offer you some words, viz. "That this House will not enter upon consideration, to charge the subjects, till effectual security be taken to preserve the King's Protestant subjects, the Priests executed, and the Lords in the Tower tryed."

Colonel Birch.] I think that Garroway did reflect upon me. I acknowleged, that, as long as we have hope left, I never refused Money; but till we are satisfied of the abuses, &c. I am resolved never to give a penny.

Mr Williams.] Did I think that giving Money would secure you, I would give it; but I think this will have a contrary effect. If you promise Money before you have redress, &c. you will do as the last Parliament did, and be put off as the last Parliament was, when they would give no more. That House promised in vain, and paid in vain, and when men with bold faces could ask the same thing again, they must have the same Answer. There was Money given for the French War, and then to disband the Army, and now to disband it again: Pray, let us see that Army disbanded. Till that Army be disbanded, a Member ought to be questioned that asks Money.

Lord Cavendish.] I will venture to say something in this matter; though I fear I shall please nobody. I was ever of opinion, that he is not fit to serve the King in Council, that has not the good opinion of those here. Money is now asked for a Summer-guard of ships, and paying off Narborough's men. You are told, "That all the King's Revenue is anticipated, &c." but I see no Reason to abandon all thoughts of public safety, because all things are not yet done. No man in this House can say so much of ill management, &c. as I can think. The Ministers, and those Pensioners, and whatever we groaned under, is from the ill maxims of Government that we have groaned under. Those who gave Money, &c. and had no account, &c. I thank God, we are delivered of that Parliament, and one of those Ministers is laid aside. Some remain still in the King's Council, that I have Reason not to think well of, and it will become your wisdom to press forward those Addresses you have sent. But because you have not every thing done on a sudden, will you put a Negative on the King's Message? There is no Reason for that, or why we should be ruined whilst we consider to punish offenders. I have examined myself, and if I were not in the state I am, I should be of the same opinion.

Sir Edward Dering.] No man has directly moved you for a Supply. I except not against any one of the ways proposed. When you enquire closely into Miscarriages, you may see how you came into them, and how you may go out, and I would adjourn the Debate to Monday.

Sir George Hungerford.] It is not seasonable to adjourn the Debate. I think we had not sat here, but for payment off of the clamour of the Army and Fleet. We are told, that the affairs of Christendom are now on foot, since the general Peace, and therefore a Navy is necessary. The best way of treating, &c. is when they see a good Union, that they may trust us. We have deceived the Dutch, in taking the Smyrna Fleet; and the King owning my Lord Treasurer's Letters, that treated for a Peace, for Money, with the French, when we were preparing for War, &c. When they see a confidence betwixt the King and this House, they will trust us.

Sir Eliab Harvey.] If all our Grievances could be redressed by Monday next, then I am of opinion to adjourn the Debate to Monday. We have new Counsellors, but I fear we have so many old ones, that we are on the same bottom still. Till we are on a steady bottom at home, nobody will have to do with us. The French Ambassador is so much at Court, that the World thinks us upon that bottom still—35,000l. will set out the Fleet in good condition, with two suits of sails and rigging, and what is become of all this Money we gave? We cannot set out twenty ships, and so the Nation is ruined and undone. All the Representation of the State of the Navy is entered into the Journal, Stores and Ordnance. We have not made one step towards the security of the Protestant Religion, nor is one Popish Priest hanged. Therefore I would not adjourn the Debate.

Mr Vaughan.] The abuses of the Kingdom are put upon the Parliament. It is now tottering, and if it hang at this pass, it will fall. The King may say how sure he is of Money, when there is a redress of Grievances. The State of the Nation has been long talked of to be taken into consideration. Had that been done, we had not been about to ask what may possibly be now denied. I would not have a Negative put upon Money; but if it be not necessary, I would do as in Edw. III's time; make up your Articles, and when those are redressed, then I would give Money.

Lord Russel.] I have always been as backward in giving Money as any man; but, when necessity requires, as forward. If now you put a Negative, &c. the consequence will be the clamours of thousands of Seamen. I agree for a day to consider of the King's Message, and in a little time you will see whether Grievances will be redressed, or not.

Sir William Hickman.] Money is not insisted on, but a time set to consider of the Message, a week, or such a time; and I believe the King will not so easily leap out of the hands of his Parliament.

Sir Henry Capel.] I have but one Argument for setting a day, and that is, common safety. Every man cries out, "Let us have a Fleet." (Several cried out, "No, no.")

Colonel Titus.] No doubt, but a great many Gentlemen are for giving Money; and those that think that there has not been Money enough given, are for giving more. There was twice as much Money given, the last Parliament, to bring us to this pass, as formerly was to conquer France, Wales, and Scotland twice. All the Revenue of the Crown is disposed of for Spending-money, and the Crown and the Government maintained out of your Estates. Those that see no fault in the Government already, do not enquire into things; and those too may be for Money. But when I consider all those tragical expressions which induced you to give Money, and that squandered away, I must make a little stand at Money. As for the time of giving Money, is it a time that we have satisfaction in what we desired? Have we satisfaction in any one thing that we desire? We have no Answer to our Address for removal of the Duke of Lauderdale. The greatest malversation is not only defended, in the Pardon granted to Lord Danby, but they encourage such for the future, and no punishment will be for any such rapine for the future; and it may be, some will do yet worse, and so Parliaments will be no farther useful, than to give Money: As if they were called only for Money, and not Advice. In the 50th of Edw. III, the Crown was in wonderful necessities, but such as the King's Ministers put him into: Money was demanded, and the Parliament answered, "Saving their Allegiance, if the Money they had given had been well employed, the King had been the richest Prince in Christendom, and the very Fines upon Offenders would supply him." I move as before.

Mr Powle.] I have done nothing to deceive you in my carriage here, I hope, heretofore; and I hope I shall not. I can testify, that I have heard the King solemnly declare, "That he will never have any person in his service, that his people have just exceptions against; to satisfy his people." But I find there is a mistake in this Motion of Supply; but it is not too early to consider what to do. A great deal is expected from the King, and no man can be secure, till a Vote from this House pass. I like the Motion, and I would let the King know what you desire. Whoever does desire to serve you, will do it with greater ease. Let us know what is expected of the King. His own Grace and Favour will give you satisfaction. Take some short day to consider of it, and put not off giving the King good Counsel when he is willing to receive it. Appoint Monday next.

Mr Sacheverell.] All Persons seem to agree, not to give Money, till that be done. Powle says, "You ought to tell the King what you would have done." I am always for plain English, and I would speak so to the King as he may understand these are our Grievances. If he please to remove them, we are free; till then, we cannot give Money, to be perverted as formerly. The execution of the Priests, Justice against the Lords in the Tower, and Security of the King's Protestant Subjects; else it is in vain to do any thing. In this you will acquit yourselves to all the World; else you do not. I would have Gentlemen consider, that, if you pay the Fleet before the Army be disbanded, the Army may be recontinued, and I hope the Privy Council will tell the King, "That the Nation is not safe, as long as the Duke of Lauderdale is about the King;" and a great many other matters; but it is not parliamentary to inform the King of any thing debated here. It is impossible to have Grievances redressed by Monday come seven-night, and then to consider this Message, as is moved. I would adjourn it longer. The Lords Tryals will last ten days. If you adjourn it to Monday, &c. you will have another day lost in Debate of adjourning it farther. I would therefore adjourn it to Monday fortnight.

The Debate was adjourned to Monday seven-night.