House of Lords Journal Volume 12: 2 June 1675

DIE Mercurii, 2 die Junii.

REX.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

Russell & al. Nat. Bill.

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for Naturalization of Theodore Russell and others."

Fines, for Assurance of such as claim by them Bill.

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for the better Assurance of such as claim by ancient Fines and Recoveries."

Crispe versus Dalmahoy, Black Rod's Report.

The Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod gave the House an Account of the Execution of the Warrant of this House made Yesterday, which was to this Effect:

"That he hath met with Serjeant Peck, Sir John Churchill, Serjeant Pemberton, and Mr. Porter; and Sir John Churchill only was in the Custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending the House of Commons, whom he took into his Care, and required him and the other Persons, by virtue of his Warrant, to appear before the Lords in Parliament this Morning."

He further said, "That this Morning, Sir John Churchill being in the Room adjoining to this House, the Serjeant at Arms attending the House of Commons came to him, and would have had him go along with him as his Prisoner: Upon this, the Gentleman Usher took Sir John Churchill into his Care, from the Custody of the Serjeant."

Serjeant Peck & al. examined, concerning the Peoceedings of H. C. against them.

Then Serjeant Peck, Sir John Churchill, Serjeant Pemberton, and Mr. Porter, were called, one after another; and gave the House a large and particular Account of the Proceedings against them by the House of Commons, and their Serjeant at Arms. They all confessed, "That they were all called into the House of Commons; and told by the Speaker, That they had subverted and betrayed the Liberty of the Subject and Privilege of Parliament, in pleading for Sir Nicholas Crispe, against Mr. Dalmahoy, at the Bar of the House of Lords."

After a serious Debate of this Business, it was proposed, "To send a Message, to have a Conference with the House of Commons To-morrow Morning, in the Painted Chamber, upon Matters of high Importance, concerning the Dignity of the King, and the Safety of the Government."

Then it was moved, "That these Words ["in His Highest Court of Judicature"] might be Part of the Message."

And the Question being put, "Whether these Words shall be Part of the Message?"

It was Resolved in the Negative.

Message to H. C. for a Conference, about their attaching Sir J. Churchill & al.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas and the Lord Chief Baron:

To let them know, that the Lords desire a Conference with the House of Commons, at Ten of the Clock To-morrow Morning, in the Painted Chamber, upon Matters of high Importance, concerning the Dignity of the King, and the Safety of the Government.

Protection for Sir John Churchill, Serjeant Peck, & al. assigned Counsel for Crispe versus Dalmahoy.

Next, the House thought it requisite to give Sir John Churchill and the other Counsellors the Protection of this House, to preserve them from any future Arrests concerning this Business.

Whereupon the Order following was made:

"Whereas Sir John Churchill hath been taken into Custody by the Serjeant at Arms attending the House of Commons, by virtue of a Warrant signed by the Speaker of that House; and that Endeavours have been to take Mr. Serjeant Peck, Mr. Serjeant Pemberton, and Mr. Charles Porter, into Custody, by that or the like Warrant, for appearing at the Bar of the House of Peers, as Counsel for Sir Nicholas Crispe, in his Appeal against Thomas Dalmahoy Esquire, a Member of the House of Commons, as upon the several Examinations of them at the Bar of this House, and by other Proofs, was attested: It is this Day ORDERED, That the said Serjeant Peck, Sir John Churchill, Serjeant Pemberton, and Mr. Porter, and every of them, be, and are hereby, privileged and protected by this House: And all Persons whatsoever are hereby prohibited from arresting, imprisoning, or otherwise molesting, the said Serjeant Peck, Sir John Churchill, Serjeant Pemberton, and Mr. Porter, or any of them, upon any Pretence of Authority whatsoever, for the Cause aforesaid, as they will answer the contrary to this House."

Sir John Churchill & al. acquainted with it.

Then Serjeant Peck, Sir John Churchill, Serjeant Pemberton, and Mr. Porter, were called in.

And the Lord Keeper told them, "That this House takes Notice that they had done their Duty, in attending at the Bar, as they were commanded, in the Case of Sir Nicholas Crispe and others; and did commend them for it: That this House will never suffer those who obey their Commands to be arrested, or detained by any arbitrary or illegal Imprisonment: That therefore this House had resolved to take them into their Protection, and for that End have caused the Order of this House for their Protection to be delivered to each of them; to the End that whosoever shall presume to attach them may be the more inexcusable, when they shall see the Order of this House to the contrary. And this House expects from them, that they do not presently submit to any illegal Imprisonment; and if any Attempt shall be made upon them, that then they resort to this House for further Directions."

And then an Order of Protection was delivered to each of them.

Message from H. C. for a Conference, about an Answer for a Conference desired by them.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Deering and others:

To desire a Conference upon the Subject-matter of the last Conference.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That the Lords have taken their Message into Consideration; and do agree to a Conference, as is desired: And they do appoint it to be presently, in the Painted Chamber.

Managers.

These Lords following were appointed to be Reporters of this Conference:

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference about an Answer from this House to H. C. concerning a Conference desired by them on Stoughton's and Onflow's Case.

Then the Lord Privy Seal reported the Effect of this Conference; which was managed by Mr. Vaughan, who said,

"That this Conference was desired by the House of Commons upon the Matter delivered by the Lords at the last Conference.

"The House of Commons do agree with the Lords, that Conferences between the Two Houses of Parliament are essential to Parliamentary Proceedings, when they are agreed in the usual and Parliamentary Way: But the Manner of the Lords Agreement to a Conference to have been upon Friday the 28th of May last, at Ten of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber, with Limitation and Proviso, was such as did necessitate the House of Commons to forbear to meet at that Conference, and gave the First Interruption to Parliamentary Proceedings in Conferences between the Two Houses.

"For that the Conference desired by the Commons was upon their Privilege, concerned in the Answer of the Lords to a Message of the House of Commons sent to the Lords the 17th of May, in the Case of Mr. Onslow, to which the Lords did not agree; but did only agree (fn. 1) to a Conference concerning their Privileges in general, without Reference to the Case of the said Mr. Onslow, which was the only Subjectmatter of the desired Conference.

"The Limitation in the Lords Agreement to a Conference, "with Proviso that nothing be offered at the Conference that may any Way concern the Lords Judicature," is in Effect a Denial of any Conference at all upon the Subject upon which it was desired; which ought not to be.

"The Judicature which the Lords claim in Appeals against a Member of the House of Commons, and the Privilege of that House in that Case, is so involved, that no Conference can be upon the latter, without some-way touching the former.

"That this Manner of agreeing to a Conference with any Limitation or Proviso, is against the Course of Proceedings between the Two Houses of Parliament in coming to Conferences; and doth seem to place a Power in the Managers of such Conferences to judge whether such Provisos be broken or not, and accordingly to proceed, or break off the Conference, upon their own Judgements.

"That the particular Limitation, "that nothing be offered at the Conference that may any Way concern the Judicature of the Lords," appears unreasonable; for that your Lordships Judicature in Parliament is circumscribed by the Laws of the Land, as to your Proceedings and Judgements; and is, as well as all other Courts, subject to Parliament.

"The House of Commons doubt not but that, when the Lords have considered of what is delivered at this Conference, the good Correspondency which the Lords express they desire to continue between the Two Houses (which the Commons also are no less careful to maintain) will induce them to remove the present Interruption of coming to Conferences; and therefore to agree to the Conference, as it was desired by the House of Commons, upon the Privileges of their House, concerned in the Lords Answer to the Message of the House of Commons in the Case of Mr. Onslow."

The Matter of this Conference is to be taken into Consideration after the Conference is past with the House of Commons.

Answer from H. C.

The Messengers sent to the House of Commons return with this Answer:

That they will give a Conference, as is desired.

Sir Nich. Stoughton versus Onslow.

ORDERED, That the Cause upon the Appeal of Sir Nicholas Stoughton, depending in this House, and the Answer of Arthur Onslow Esquire put in thereunto, which should have been heard this Day, shall be heard, by Counsel on both Parts, at the Bar, on Monday the Seventh Day of this Instant June, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon.

Denys versus Frazer.

Whereas this Day was appointed for Sir Alexander Frazier to put in an Answer to the Petition and Appeal of Frances Denyes Widow, now depending in this House:

The House being moved, "That the said Sir Alexander Frazier may have a little longer Time allowed him for perusing the Papers and Pleadings (which are many) relating to the Cause in the said Petition mentioned, in order to the perfecting his Answer to be put in thereunto;" it is ORDERED, That the said Sir Alexander Frazier hath hereby Time allowed him, for putting in his said Answer in Writing, at the Bar of this House, till Wednesday the Ninth Day of this Instant June, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon.

Squib versus Regem, in Error.

ORDERED, That the Errors which should have been further argued this Day, upon a Writ of Error depending in this House, wherein Edmond Squib is Plaintiff against the King's Majesty, shall be further argued, by Counsel on both Sides, at the Bar of this House, on Wednesday the Ninth Day of this Instant June, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon.

Bill to prevent Dangers from disaffected Persons.

ORDERED, That on Friday next the House be put into a Committee, to proceed in the Bill to prevent the Dangers which may arise from Persons disaffected to the Government.

Heads for securing the Protestant Religion.

ORDERED, The House be in a Committee on Saturday Morning next, to consider further of Heads for a Bill for securing the Protestant Religion.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in post meridiem hujus instantis diei, hora quarta, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Post meridiem.

REX.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

De Hæretico comburendo Writ, for taking away, Bill.

Hodie 2^a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act to take away the Writ de Hæretico comburendo."

ORDERED, That this Bill is to be taken into Consideration on Saturday next, in the Afternoon.

Committee to prepare Reasons for a Conference concerning H. C. attaching Peck & al. Crispe's Counsel.

The House was adjourned into a Committee, to consider what shall be the Matter of the Conference with the House of Commons To-morrow Morning.

The House being resumed;

The Lord Privy Seal reported, "That the Committee desires that the House would appoint a small Committee, to prepare what is fit to be delivered at the Conference, upon those Heads which were read in the Committee; and that the said Committee might meet presently, and prepare a Report against the Sitting of the House."

Hereupon the House nominated the Lord Privy Seal, Earl of Bridgwater, Earl of Shaftsbury, and the Lord Holles, Committees for this Purpose.

Order for Records.

ORDERED, That the Keeper of the Records in The Tower of London do bring all the original Parliament Rolls of H. IV. to this House, by Eight of the Clock To-morrow Morning.

Crispes versus Boys & al.

ORDERED, That the Cause upon the Petition and Appeal of John and Thomas Crispe Esquires, and the Answer of John Bois, John Bradborne, John Harris, depending in this House, which should have been heard on Friday the Fourth Instant, be, and is hereby, appointed to be heard, by Counsel on both Parts, at the Bar, on Friday the Eleventh Day of this Instant June, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Jovis, tertium diem instantis Junii, hora decima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.