House of Lords Journal Volume 2: 4 March 1607

Pages 482-483

Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 2, 1578-1614. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.

This free content was digitised by double rekeying. All rights reserved.

Page 482
Page 483

In this section

DIE Mercurii, videlicet, 4 Martii:

p. Archiepus. Cant.
p. Archiepus. Ebor.
p. Epus. London.
p. Epus. Dunelme.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Lincolne.
Epus. Coven. et Lichf.
Epus. Wigorn.
Epus. Bathon. et Wellen.
Epus. Meneven.
Epus. Carliol.
Epus. Exon.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Bangor.
Epus. Elien.
p. Epus. Peterburgh.
Epus. Landaven.
p. Epus. Hereford.
p. Epus. Norwicen.
p. Epus. Bristoll.
p. Epus. Oxon.
p. Epus. Assaphen.
p. Epus. Cestren.
p. Epus. Glocestren.
p. Epus. Roffen.
p. Epus. Cicestren.
p. Ds. Ellesmere, Cancellar. Angliæ.
p. Comes Dorsett, Magnus Thesaur. Angliæ.
Marchio Winton.
p. Comes Notingham, Magnus Admirall. et Senescall.
Comes Suffolke, Camerar. Hospitii.
Comes Arundell.
Comes Northumbriæ.
p. Comes Salopp.
Comes Kanciæ.
Comes Derbie.
p. Comes Wigorn.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Cumbriæ.
p. Comes Sussex.
Comes Huntingdon.
Comes Bathon.
p. Comes South'ton.
Comes Bedford.
p. Comes Pembroke.
p. Comes Hertford.
p. Comes Lincolne.
p. Comes Northampton.
p. Comes Sarum.
Comes Exon.
p. Comes Mountgomery.
Vicecomes Mountagu.
Vicecomes Bindon.
p. Vicecomes Lisle.
p. Ds. Bergevenny.
Ds. Audley.
p. Ds. Zouche.
Ds. Willughby de Eresbie.
p. Ds. Lawarr.
Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Morley.
p. Ds. Stafford.
Ds. Scroope.
p. Ds. Dudley.
Ds. Lumley.
Ds. Stourton.
Ds. Herbert.
Ds. Darcie de Menell.
p. Ds. Mountegle.
Ds. Sandes.
Ds. Mordaunt.
Ds. Crumwell.
Ds. Evre.
Ds. Wharton.
p. Ds. Riche.
Ds. Willughby de Parham.
p. Ds. Sheffeild.
p. Ds. Pagett.
Ds. Darcie de Chiche.
Ds. Howard de Effingham.
Ds. North.
p. Ds. Chandos.
p. Ds. Hunsdon.
p. Ds. St. John.
p. Ds. Compton.
p. Ds. Norreys.
p. Ds. Knollis.
p. Ds. Wotton.
p. Ds. Russell.
Ds. Graie.
p. Ds. Petre.
Ds. Harrington.
p. Ds. Danvers.
p. Ds. Gerard.
p. Ds. Spencer.
p. Ds. Saie.
p. Ds. Denny.
p. Ds. Stanhope.
p. Ds. Carew.
p. Ds. Arundell.
Ds. Cavendish.

Defective Titles.

THE Bill, intituled, An Act for the Confirmation of Grants made, or to be made, by Commissions heretofore granted, or hereafter to be granted, for the amending of Defective Titles, was this Day brought into the House, by the Lord Archbishop of Cant. the first of the Committees, who signified, That the Committees having considered of the said Bill, and finding so many Additions or Alterations meet to be had of the same, as the said Bill could not well proceed, they therefore moved (and was accordingly Agreed by the House), That a new Bill should be drawn instead thereof.

Establishment of the Earl of Derby's Estates.

Moved, That some of the Committees on the Bill for the establishing of the Earl of Derbies Lands, might be appointed to consider of the Differences made by the Coheirs, concerning some Points of the Bill; whereupon the Earls of Northampton and Salisbury were selected accordingly for that Purpose.

Message from the H. C.

Message from the Lower House, by Sir Edward Hobby and others:

Naturalization of the Scots.

That the Knights, Citizens, Burgesses, and Barons of the Commons Court of Parliament, have entered into Consideration of the Reply of the Lords to their Answer; and do perceive, that the Understanding and Construction of the Message is left by the Lords to their own Judgement; wherein if their Lordships be to treat again of the Post nati, in what Sort they stand in Law, he is commanded to say, that the Lords do already know their Opinion and Inclination in that Point, and have since that Time seen, heard, or known, nothing to the contrary, that might cause them to alter their Opinion; if of the Ante nati, and Conveniency of Naturalization, they hold it to be a Matter of State, so as it is sitter to have Beginning from the Upper House, that is better acquainted with Matters of State; but notwithstanding, if the Lords will be pleased to deal freely with them, give them Light, and lay open themselves, and make known in what Sort they mean to proceed, they will be ready to attend the Service.

Answer for the present, requesting them to sit a while, because the Lords will return Answer by Messengers of their own of purpose.


Message from the Lords, by Way of Answer to the abovesaid Message from the Lower House, sent by Sir John Crooke and Sir Edward Stanhope:

That the Strength of both Houses consisteth in nothing more than in the Preservation of the Right and Privilege, justly and properly belonging to either; in which respect the Lords are very tender in suffering any Thing to pass unanswered, whereof there may arise the least Misunderstanding; and therefore, although some Words delivered by the Gentleman appointed to speak by the Lower House, were such as all their Lordships do conceive to be no more, than Lapsus Linguæ in his Person (to which any Man may be subject); yet being spoken in that Time, and in his Person, qualified as their Mouth, the Lords could not think it safe for them to conceal from you, that, if it had been otherwise conceived than as his private Action, they must have used that Freedom, which is necessary for one Friend to hold with another, in telling you, that they will never acknowledge any Man that sitteth in the Lower House to have the Right or Title of a Baron of Parliament; tho' some private Gentlemen, and some that sit as Burgesses for the Cinque Ports, may have such an Appellation where they have their Habitation; no more could they admit the Term of the Commons Court of Parliament, because your House together, without theirs, doth make no Court of Parliament. For the Matter itself, wherein their Lordships resort to the Substance (having said enough of that Mistaking), they are sorry to find so much Reservation towards those that mean to use so much Freedom, they being so well persuaded of all your good Affections to the general Cause, as they were and are willing to offer you Conference in general Terms, even upon that particular Title of Naturalization; and therefore, for the present, they think it sit once again to declare thus much unto you, That of Naturalization they have not had as yet amongst themselves any particular Deliberation, either in Point of Law or Conveniency, because they do intend to come unto you free from any Obligation, by any Voice or Opinion, upon any Branch, before they had in some Measure conferred of the whole, according to the first Institution of their Conference; this being the only Way to come to a good and speedy End. Whereas your Messenger used a Phrase of your Resolution to attend the Service, their Lordships command me to declare unto you, that they understand it as your Promise to conser, as well as to hear what may be said of Conveniency of Naturalization; lest, when they expect a Conference, you offer them an Audience, of which there need be no Difficulty, seeing they come to debate and argue without Conclusion, and of a Matter to which no Man's Thought can be so great a Stranger as not to be able to debate in some Degree or other; to which Intent their Lordships will be ready, if you so like it, to meet on Saturday, in the Afternoon, at the wonted Place, and the same Committee, at Two of the Clock.

Answer, That they will send Answer To-morrow unto the Lords, by some of their own House.


Dominus Cancellarius continuavit præsens Parliamentum usque in diem crastinum, videlicet, 5m Martii, hora 9a.