House of Lords Journal Volume 20: 18 March 1718

DIE Martis, 18 Martii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

Messages from H. C. to return the Bristol Workhouses Bill;

A Message from the House of Commons, by Mr. Erle and others:

To return the Bill, intituled, "An Act for the better explaining several Acts therein mentioned, for erecting of Hospitals and Workhouses within the City of Bristol, for the employing and maintaining the Poor thereof; and for making the said Acts more effectual;" and to acquaint this House, that they have agreed to their Lordships Amendments made thereto.

the Bill for preserving Ships stranded;

A Message from the House of Commons, by Mr. Heysham and others:

To return the Bill, intituled, "An Act for enforcing and making perpetual an Act of the Twelfth Year of Her late Majesty, intituled, An Act for the preserving of all such Ships, and Goods thereof, which shall happen to be forced on Shore, or stranded, upon the Coasts of this Kingdom, or any other of Her Majesty's Dominions;" and to acquaint this House, that they have agreed to their Lordships Amendments made thereto.

and Ludolph & al. Nat. Bill.

A Message from the House of Commons, by Mr. London and others:

To return the Bill, intituled, "An Act to naturalize Martin Ludolph, Ulrick Jansen, and John Ludolph Spellerberg;" and to acquaint this House, that they have agreed to their Lordships Amendments made thereto.

Draycot's Pet. for the Representatives of Graham to answer.

After reading the Petition of Edward Draycot; praying, "That the Guardians of the Heir of John Graham, deceased, or other the Representatives of the said Graham, may peremptorily answer the Petitioner's Appeal by a Day certain; and that the Settlements in the Petition mentioned, under which, as is therein alledged, the Respondents derived their pretended Title to the Estate in Question, may be produced before this House, at the Hearing of the said Appeal:"

It is Ordered, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Infant Son and Heir of the said John Graham do peremptorily answer the said Appeal within Three Weeks after the Beginning of the next Session of Parliament; and, in order thereunto, that the Executors of the said John Graham and Guardians of such Infant Heir be served with this Order.

Message from H. C. for a Conference on the Bill to prevent Robbery, &c.:

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Carteret and others:

To desire a Conference with this House, upon the Subject-matter of the Amendments made by their Lordships to the Bill, intituled, "An Act for the further preventing Robbery, Burglary, and other Felonies; and the more effectual Transportation of Felons and unlawful Exporters of Wool."

To which the House agreed.

Answer.

And the Messengers were called in; and told, "That the Lords do agree to a Conference, as is desired; and appoint it presently, in the Painted Chamber."

Managers:

Then the Lords following were named Managers of the Conference; (videlicet,)

The House being informed, "That the Managers of the Conference for the House of Commons were now ready, in the Painted Chamber:"

The Names of the Managers for this House were read.

And the House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference.

Which being ended, the House was resumed.

Conference reported:

And the Lord Chamberlain reported, "That the Lords had been at the Conference, and met the Managers for the Commons; who acquainted their Lordships, "That the Commons agree to all the Amendments made by this House to the said Bill, except the Clause (B), and the Word ["Deer-stealers"] in the Title of the Bill: To which the Commons disagree.

"1st. Because they conceive that unlawful Hunting or Coursing of Deer, in Forests, Chaces, Purlieus, &c. or being aiding or assisting therein, is very uncertain, as well with regard to the Nature of the Offence, as to the Place where it may be supposed to be committed; whereby innocent Persons may be liable to Prosecutions upon srivolous Pretences.

"2. The Power of Conviction and Transportation being given to a Quarter Sessions of the Peace; there is too much Reason to apprehend, that an ill Use may be made of such a Power upon some Emergencies, where there are Animosities and Divisions in the Country.

"3. They disagree to the Word ["Deer-stealers"] in the Title of the Bill, it being only the Consequence of that Amendment to which the Commons disagree."

And the said Report being read by the Clerk:

Lords insist on their Amendments to the Bill:

Ordered, That this House doth insist on their Lordships Amendments to the said Bill, to which the Commons disagreed.

Ordered, That the Managers for the last Conference be, and are hereby, appointed a Committee, to prepare Reasons to be offered to the Commons, at a Conference, for insisting on the said Amendments.

Their Lordships, or any Five of them; to meet presently, in the Prince's Lodgings; and to adjourn as they please.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords of the Committee withdrew.

After some Time, the House was resumed.

And the Lord Chamberlain reported from the said Committee, Reasons drawn by them for insisting on the said Amendments, as follows:

Lords Reasons reported:

"The Lords having taken into Consideration the Reasons given by the Commons, at the last Conference, for their disagreeing with the Amendments made by their Lordships to the Bill for the further preventing Robbery, Burglary, and other Felonies, and the more effectual Transportation of Felons and unlawful Exporters of Wool, which relate to Deerstealers; their Lordships do insist on those Amendments:

"Because the Crime of Deer-stealing is of late very greatly increased, and carried on by Force and Numbers in divers Parts of the Kingdom, to the great Terror of private Families and of those intrusted in the keeping of Deer, and to the apparent Hazard of the Lives of many of His Majesty's Subjects; for the Prevention of which, the Laws already in being are found to be ineffectual. The Lords cannot but observe, That though the Commons disagree to the whole Clause, yet their Objection seems only to relate to Part thereof; (videlicet,) to the Uncertainty of the Words "Forests, Chaces, and Purlieus;" which Words their Lordships find used in the Act of the 3d and 4th of King William and Queen Mary, intituled, "An Act for the more effectual Discovery and Punishment of Deer-stealers," although the Conviction by that Act is much easier, being to be before One or more Justices of Peace; whereas, by the Clause now in Question, such Conviction must be by Indictment, which necessarily requires Two Juries; and therefore, as well for that the Boundaries are, as their Lordships conceive, sufficiently certain, as for that these Words have stood so long in the aforementioned Act, their Lordships conceive it proper to use the same Words, they relating to the same Offence, though the Clause in Question is to enact a further Punishment."

Ordered, That these Reasons be offered to the Commons, at a Conference.

Message to H. C. for another Conference on the Subject.

And a Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Dormer and Mr. Browning:

To desire a Conference with that House, To-morrow, at Two a Clock, in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject-matter of the last Conference.

Ordered, That the Lord Privy Seal be added to the Lords named Managers of the last Conference.

Adjourn.

Dominus Cancellarius declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque ad et in diem Mercurii, decimum nonum diem instantis Martii, hora undecima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Die Martis, 25 Martii, 1718,
hitherto examined by us,

Stamford.
Clarendon.
Rochester. Warrington.
Say & Seale. De Lawarr.