Appendix: poor laws, 16 December 1830

Die Jovis, 16 Decembris 1830.

The Marquess of Salisbury in the Chair.

The Reverend Stephen Demainbray is called in, and further examined as follows:

Have you, according to the Request of the Committee, prepared an Account of the Produce derived by the Spade Husbandry in your Parish?

I have prepared a Return of the Number of Days, and Parts of Days, employed by the poor Men in the Cultivation of an Acre of Land, also of the Profits arising to the poor Man from the Cultivation of an Acre of Land, according to the nature of the Soil and the different Kinds of Crops, calculated on an Average in Three different Parts of the Parish of Broad Somerford, Wilts.

The Witness delivers in the same, which is read, and is as follows:

An Account of the Produce derived by Poor Men from Spade Husbandry in the Parish of Broad Somerford, in the County of Wilts, in the Year 1830.

[124]

Dr. The poor Man in account with himself Cr

[125]

Dr The poor Man in account with himself Cr

[126]

Dr The poor Man in account with himself Cr.

Do you wish to make any Explanation of the Account you have given in?

I wish to observe, that, in calculating the Expence of raising the Potatoes, I have taken it as if it were done by means of hired Labour; whereas, in fact, the greater Part of the Labour is performed by the Man and his Family; so that the Profit to him is in fact much greater than appears upon this Calculation.

You are understood to have stated that the Land occupied by the poor Tenantry pays you a Rent, although when it was occupied by the Farmer it paid you no Rent?

[127]

Certainly; that is the Case. I also beg to mention, that in the Parish of Highworth, in which my Son resides, they have been obliged to give the poor Labourers, the single Men, 12s. 6d. a Week, which has been completely compulsory, and 2s. a Head additional to each of the Family. At this Moment, in my Parish of Somerford, the poor Man's Wages are still 8s. a Week, and they all seem contented and comfortable; there has not been the least Disposition to Disturbance; and I believe that if there had been they would one and all have been disposed to repress it; and all this I attribute to the Poor having had Land to cultivate in the Manner I have stated. When I was examined before, I was asked a Question, which I was not able to answer, as to the Saving produced in Poor Rates by giving Land to the Poor; but I have here a Letter from my Son, in which he states the Name of a poor Man, who told him that if he had not got Land he must, with his large Family, have come upon the Parish; and if so, would have to receive upwards of 1l. a Week.

Did you, when you let that Land to those poor Persons, make any Advances to them to begin the Cultivation of it?

Not a Sixpence.

Did the Parish make any?

I believe not. In the Inclosure they gave each Man a small Portion of Land, and they gradually increased it.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. Richard Wardroper is called in, and examined as follows:

You are Clerk to the Magistrates of Sussex, for the Lower Division of Chichester Rape?

Yes.

Are you resident at Midhurst?

I am.

What is the Extent of the Parish of Midhurst?

407 Acres.

What was the Population in 1821?

1,335.

Has that Population increased since?

I apprehend it has.

Was there ever any particular Trade in that Place?

Not within my Recollection.

To what Cause do you attribute the large Population of it, compared with the Acreage?

I have not the Means of answering that Question; but we have a considerable Charity in the Place, and we are induced to think that many Persons are disposed to settle themselves, with a view of partaking of that Charity.

To what Amount is that Charity?

About 200£. a Year.

How is the Right to partake of it entailed?

Any Parishioner settled in the Parish.

What were the Poor Rates in the Pound last Year?

12s.

Have they been to that Amount for some Years?

Yes, they have.

On what Valuation?

A Valuation, taken about Twelve Years ago, upon the Rack Rent.

What is the Rental of the Parish?

About 2,500£. a Year; a little more.

What Number of Rate Payers are there?

One hundred and sixty-four.

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What Number of Individuals perpetually receiving Parish Relief?

One hundred and eighty-six.

How many of them are in the Poorhouse?

Thirty-two.

How many receive Relief in the Shape of Employment, or on account of their Families?

About Forty.

How many receive Relief on account of old Age or Sickness?

About Twenty.

What is the Rate of Wages in your Parish?

9s. 6d. to a married Man.

Do you mean the Rate of Wages paid by the Farmers, or by the Parish?

By both, at the present Moment.

Will you state the Payments to the single Men, the Payments to married Men, and the Allowances made on account of their Families?

The Payments to married Men were 8s. a Week, and to single Men 3s. 6d. but now they are increased considerably in both Cases; it is now 9s. 6d. to married Men, and 6s. 6d. to single Men.

Have you a Copy of the Scale which was adopted in that District in November 1828?

I have.

The same is delivered in and read, and is as follows:

Lower Rape Division Of The Rape Of Chichester.

Midhurst, 27th November 1828.

It is ordered that increased Allowances shall be made by the Parishes within this Division, as under:-

All Children above Two, and above the Age of Three Months, to be allowed 1s. 3d. each. Working Hours for Labourers, from March 'till September, from Five in the Morning 'till Seven at Night. Allowed Two Hours and a Half for Meals. To be deducted for Labourers Absence from Work, 1d. per Hour. One Month's Imprisonment to Persons convicted of Robbery.

Signed by the Magistrates.

How are the Men employed?

In digging Materials for the Roads, and in labouring on the Roads.

Are they employed in Task Work, or by the Day?

Generally by the Day; occasionally in Task Work.

Are they profitably employed?

I should say not.

Have you any means of stating whether the Farmers in that Parish employ many Labourers?

Very few.

What is the Quantity of Arable Land in the Parish?

157 Statute Acres.

[129]

Is the whole of the Work upon those 157 Acres done by the Labourers of the Parish?

No, certainly not; I do not apprehend that more than Three or Four Men are employed upon that belonging to the Parish.

Do the Farmers who hold that Quantity of Arable Land rent Land in other Parishes?

They do.

Do they employ the Labourers of other Parishes upon it?

They do, chiefly.

What are the Rents of Cottages in that Parish?

From 3£. to 6£.; the greater Number at 5£. There are a few Borough Houses which are let more moderately, at about 3l. a House.

Is there any Land attached to them?

None whatever.

Is the Property in Cottages vested in few or in many Hands?

In many.

Are they principally built by Speculators?

Yes.

Has any Attempt been made to introduce any Manufacture into the Place?

Not within my Recollection.

Is there much uncultivated Land in the Parish of Midhurst?

About 100 Acres.

Of what Quality is that Land?

Of very indifferent Quality indeed - Heath Land.

Has any of that Land been inclosed, or is it in the Progress of Inclosure, for the Purposes of Cultivation, by the Permission of the Proprietor?

Yes; I think about Fourteen Acres.

Is the Land so in progress of Cultivation intended to be divided into Allotments, or is it to be cultivated for the Benefit of the Parish?

That is not determined upon; at present the Parish have it; and a certain Number of Gentlemen in the Parish are to form a Committee, and to decide upon it.

How many Persons are now employed upon it?

I think about Twenty.

Are they working by the Day, or by Task Work?

When they were embanking and making the Fences, they were employed at Task Work-by the Rod; but when they began to dig the Soil up, they are now working by the Day.

What Wages are they to receive?

That has not been decided upon. I have been given to understand that they are to have 12s. a Week; but it is impossible that the Parish can afford to give such Wages, and we have been giving them about 9s. 6d.

In your Opinion, does this Method appear likely to afford a Remedy to the Evil of Want of Employment of which you complain?

As far as my Judgment goes, I think so.

Is it customary, in your Parish, to pay the Rent of Cottages out of the Rates?

No, it is not.

Have you a Select Vestry in your Parish?

We have not.

Have you a permanent Overseer?

We have.

Is he a Shopkeeper?

No, certainly not.

[130]

Have you had any Disturbances at Midhurst?

None.

Have you had any Opportunity of comparing the State of the Poor at the present Time with their State in the latter Years of the War?

I cannot say that I have.

What was the Rate of Wages during the latter Years of the War?

As far as my Recollection goes, about 12s.

Was there the same Demand upon Parish Relief at that Time?

Nearly, I think.

Do the Poor appear to you to be in a much worse Condition than they were during the latter Years of the War?

That is a general Question, which I am hardly competent to answer.

What was the Sum raised in the Parish last Year?

I do not know the Sum raised, but I know the Sum expended; the Sum expended was upwards of 1,700l.

Was there a Highway Rate?

Yes, there was.

Was that kept distinct from the Poor's Rate?

Entirely so.

What was the Amount of that?

I think 6d. in the Pound.

Is it the Practice of the Magistrates to order Relief without Inquiry whether any Employment has been offered to the Individuals?

No; they always inquire.

Have the Magistrates drawn out a Scale for Relief?

Yes; the one which is now before the Committee; not since that.

Do they act according to that Scale?

They did, up to the Time of the late Disturbances.

Without reference to particular Cases?

Yes.

You are Clerk of the Magistrates of the Midhurst Bench; are Applications to them for Relief very frequent?

They have been very frequent; indeed they have come in Bodies from some of the Parishes; in particular from the Parish of Harting and the Parish of Roegate; they have come Twelve and Fourteen at a Time.

From what you have observed as Clerk of the Magistrates, do you not think that employing the Men in Numbers upon the Roads creates great Dissatisfaction among them?

I think it does.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. John Cameron is called in, and examined as follows:

You are Steward of Mr. Poyntz of Cowdray, near Midhurst, in the Lower Rape of Chichester, in the County of Sussex?

I am.

Can you inform the Committee what is the Number of Acres in the Parish of Farnhurst, near Midhurst?

3,225 Statute Acres. When I say that, I am not sure that I am accurate.

How many Acres of Woodland are there in that Parish?

895 Acres belonging to Mr. Poyntz, but there are more Woodlands not belonging to him.

Are the Poor Rates heavy in that Parish?

[131]

They are very heavy.

Can you state the Population of that Parish at the last Census in 1821?

340.

Do you conceive that the Population has increased since that Period?

I think probably it may have increased.

What is the general Employment for the People in that Parish?

Cutting Wood affords the greatest Part of the Employment. In the Winter Season there are more employed in the Woods than in any other Part.

Is there a Poorhouse in the Parish?

No.

Is it one of the United Parishes?

It is united with the Parish of Easebourne and Fourteen other Parishes.

Can you tell the Committee how many there are at this Moment in the Poorhouse of that Parish?

No.

Do you know whether there are many People usually out of Employ in that Parish in the Winter?

There have been sometimes a great many out of Employment, but not usually.

Do you think there are more Men in that Parish than can be profitably employed?

No.

Is there a permanent Overseer there?

No.

Are the Men employed upon the Roads in that Parish when out of Employment?

They have been, but not much within these Two Years. When they have been out of Employment I have set them to work in ditching and planting, to prevent their being on the Road.

Do you think that that has been beneficial?

I am sure it has.

What are the Wages given in the Parish in the Summer?

They have been, I believe, 1s. 8d. a Day; they are now 2s.

What do they give the Men not in constant Work?

I cannot state that positively, but I believe as low as 1s. a Day; a single Man I believe as low as 4d. and 6d. or 9d.

Is the Arable Land in the Parish good or bad?

A great deal of it is very bad; generally speaking, it is very thin and cold.

Is it Land that you would throw out of Cultivation if you did not wish to give Employment to the People?

My Opinion is, that much of it ought to be thrown out of Cultivation if it were not to give Employment to the People.

Has that Parish been disturbed?

No; the Men did collect together, merely to see if they could not get their Wages advanced.

Are any Thrashing Machines employed in the Parish?

No.

In point of fact, are the Labourers principally employed in the Woods?

Yes.

[132]

You were understood to say, that there are not more Men in the Parish than might be profitably employed; how do you reconcile that Answer with what you have just stated, that you would recommend some of the Land being put out of Cultivation?

On those Woodlands there are Seventy-five Acres cut every Year; and a great deal of it is very bad, and wants ditching, and consequently there is a great deal of Labour bestowed at every cutting. There is a great deal of the Land that is in Cultivation, which, in consequence of the Poverty of the Occupiers, has never had the Labour employed upon it that ought to be employed in order to make it produce. If a proper Proportion of Labour were bestowed upon the whole of that Parish as it ought to be, the Produce of the Parish would be Three Times what it is now; and therefore if the Men were allotted to the Farms in proper Proportions, I am satisfied that there is not a Labourer too much in the Parish. I have not only my own Opinion for that, but I have the Opinion of Two industrious Farmers of the Place, who do farm their Land well, that if every one would take their Proportion of Labour, we should not have at this Time, and we never should have had, Hands out of Employment. They have now proposed to allot the Men; but the Mischief is, that there are Five or Six little Farmers in the Parish that cannot pay their Men, and they cannot pay their Rates. There is one Man living upon his own Farm at this Time who is Three Rates behind.

Then the Remedy which you would propose, in order to enable the Population to be employed profitably, would be by a Labour Rate, if such Labour Rate could be paid by the Occupiers?

Exactly. I can state an instance in another Parish where we have not a Labour Rate; but I have been trying these Three Years in the Parish of Easebourne to get the whole of the Parties occupying Land to take their Proportion of Labour, because they have had sometimes from Twenty to Thirty in the Winter upon the Road. Upon my stating to them the Ruin they were bringing upon themselves by allowing this to go on, they agreed that they would do it; but when they came to the Point, there is one Man, owning about 200 Acres in the Parish of his own, a Man that has got from 40,000£. to 50,000£. in the Funds, and he would not take One Man, and neither does he at this Time employ One Man in the Parish.

As you have considered the Subject of a Labour Rate, upon the Supposition of the entire Labour in the Parish being absorbed by the Occupiers, what Remedy would you give the Occupier, in the Event of the Labourer being ill-conducted and discharged by him?

I have considered that very much, but I cannot come to any Conclusion; but I think, when a Party like the one I have now mentioned would not employ his Proportion, he should be compelled.

Do you think it would be possible to have a Labour Rate without fixing the Amount of Wages to be given?

Yes, I do.

Do not you think a Farmer might take his Quota of Men, and only give them a Shilling a Week?

[133]

No; if it was enacted, that the whole of the Labourers in the Parish should be fairly allotted to the Property in the Parish, I do think myself that every Man would endeavour to make his Men happy and comfortable. I can only say from Experience, having talked to a great many of them, and Men that have been rather hard with their Men, they said they would endeavour every thing in their Power to enable those Men to earn a Living for their Families. I have told them that they should employ the Wives and Children of the Labourers even if they can only earn Twopence a Day; and I told them that I would engage that there should not be One Man out of the Number allotted to Mr. Poyntz, which is between Forty and Fifty, that should ever come to the Parish for Relief. In the Parish of Easebourne, and in Lodsworth, Farnhurst, Linchmere, Ingershall, and some Part of Ambersham, I have allowed the People to plant Potatoes between the Trees, and this Year they have grown upwards of 5,000 Bushels of Potatoes; the Year before they grew 4,000; the Year before that they grew 3,000; and the first Year they grew not above 1,000; because many of them would not try it in the first place, but after having seen others try it and succeed, they were sorry they had not done it themselves; and those Potatoes have enabled many of those Men to fatten their Pigs and so on, leaving a great Surplus for their Families.

You lend them the Land?

Yes, when the Trees are planted. I plant them in Rows to accommodate them to plant Potatoes between.

Would it answer for them to pay Rent for such Land which was not planted, and to carry on the Cultivation?

I do not know. I have considered that a good deal; but if they did pay a Rent I think it should be a very trifling one.

Do the Trees do the Potatoes any Injury?

They cannot of course make so much of the Land as they would supposing the Trees were not there, because, of course, I do not allow them to go too near the Trees, otherwise they might injure them; and therefore they cannot plant above Half the Ground.

Do they manure that Ground?

No.

Can you state at all, what Produce they have got from any given Quantity of Land?

I do not know that I can; because, in the first place, the whole of the Land is not planted.

Is not there a Prejudice among the Farmers against the Men keeping Pigs whom they employ in their Barns and with their Horses?

With regard to those who go with their Horses, I believe there is an Objection.

And also with respect to their Thrashers?

I cannot speak to that. I have not made any Objection myself.

What might be the Value of the Land per Annum which you have lent to the People in the Manner you have stated?

Some of it not a Shilling per Acre. Some of it perhaps 2s. 6d. an Acre.

Do you occupy the Farm yourself?

For Mr. Poyntz; not for myself.

Have you any Labourers attached to that Farm, and constantly employed upon it?

A great Number.

How much a Week did you pay those Labourers?

12s. a Week to all able Men, whether married or single. It was 10s. a Week before the Disturbances.

How long have you managed this Farm for Mr. Poyntz?

Upwards of Six Years.

Have you known the Farm a longer Time than that?

No.

When you first took the Management of the Farm, were the same Number of Persons employed upon it that are employed upon it now?

No; less.

Has the Farm considerably improved within that Time?

Yes.

Is there much Land in the same Parish occupied by other People besides Mr. Poyntz?

Yes.

Do many of them keep Labourers who are constantly employed upon their Farms?

Yes.

[134]

Are you aware of the Wages they pay to such Labourers?

I cannot speak positively to that. I believe some 9s. and some 10s. and I do not know that there might not be Instances of 8s.; but I cannot speak positively to that.

How long have you known the Parish altogether?

No longer than I have known the Farm. I came from Warwickshire to that Farm.

Has there been any Decrease in the Number of Labourers employed by the other Persons since you came to live in that County?

I cannot say whether there may be a Decrease since I came there, but I can say that they have never been employed to do the Labour that they ought to do.

Do you mean to say, that they have not employed the Quantity of Labour which they ought to have done in order to have their Farms in the best possible Cultivation?

I do not mean to say the best possible Cultivation, so as to have the Farms extraordinarily neat, but merely so far as Advantage goes.

What do you imagine it is that prevents them from employing that Quantity that would be advantageous to them?

Want of Capital with regard to some of them.

When you say Want of Capital, do you mean original Want of Capital, or Want of Capital created by the Price of Produce?

I mean original Capital; and I will state why. I know from Experience that it is so much the Case with every Farmer in taking a Farm, that if he has got Capital for 100 Acres, he wants 150, and perhaps will not be satisfied unless he has 200 Acres; and the Consequence is, he is always behind, and he gets poorer.

So that your Notion is, that if a Person took a Farm in proportion to the Capital he actually has, he would be able to employ a greater Proportion of Labour upon the Farm?

It is.

Do you know any Person in the Neighbourhood who has sufficient Capital for the Management of his Farm?

Yes, I know an Instance or Two, certainly.

Are their Farms a great deal better cultivated than the Farms of which you have been speaking?

They are something better.

Have they increased their Quantity of Labour, or diminished it?

They have not increased their Quantity of Labour; I cannot say whether they have decreased.

Are their Farms in as good Cultivation as it appears to you they might be?

I am sure they are not.

To what do you attribute that?

In one Case to the Want of Capital; and in some Cases where they have the Money they will not spend it.

Is the Price of the Produce of the Land sufficient to tempt them to expend more Money upon its Cultivation?

The present Price certainly is equal to that; but as Things have gone on for many Years past, the Uncertainty as to what Price they might obtain has been, I believe, a great Check to Improvements.

Since what Time have the Prices been such as to afford them Encouragement to lay out more Capital upon the Land?

I cannot say the exact Time. The Price of last Year was not complained of, but the Produce was very small, owing to the Badness of the Season.

[135]

Are the Persons of whom you have spoken Persons living on their own Land, or Persons who hire Land from Mr. Poyntz?

Some on their own, and some hiring from Mr. Poyntz.

Those that live under Mr. Poyntz, have they had their Rents lowered within these few Years?

No; nor they have not been advanced for many Years.

Do you know any particular Time at which the Lands were let at their present Rents?

I do not. I have not had to do with the Estate more than Six Years.

You stated that there is a Person in the Parish of Farnhurst living upon his own Land, who is in arrear for his Rates; has this Person been farming his own Land for a considerable Time?

As long as I have known the Neighbourhood.

To what do you attribute his not paying his Rates?

From his being poor. He employs no Labourers upon it; only Two or Three Boys and himself; he does not employ One Man constantly upon his Farm: and there are several others in Farnhurst in the same Way.

What sized Farm is that?

I cannot say exactly; but I think 115 or 120 Acres.

What sort of Land is it?

It is poor; it is much like the rest of the Parish; in fact the Parish generally is not good; but some of it may be considered as very fair Land; and if it is managed well, by being drained, and having a good deal of Money expended upon it, it will yield a tolerable Crop; but if Men have it that cannot afford to do that, of course their Produce is nothing.

If this Land was well drained and in proper Condition, what Amount would you consider a fair Crop of Wheat upon it?

Some Land will grow Eight Sacks with good Management; but then it is after an expensive System of fallowing, and liming, and dunging. I suppose the Average of the Parish, at this Time, would not be Three Sacks. It is to be considered that they are small Inclosures, and surrounded with Timber, which of course is very much against the Corn. When you take off a wide Strip all round the Field, it reduces it very much indeed.

How much an Acre do you suppose the Land to be worth?

I suppose the Land of the Parish would go from 2s. 6d. to 15s.; I do not know that there is any rented so high as 15s. in the Parish: but the greatest Part of the cultivated Land does not belong to Mr. Poyntz; there are about 1,546 Acres that do not belong to Mr. Poyntz.

How many Bushels of Wheat does the Land that lets at 15s. an Acre produce?

There is One Farmer in the Parish that has got some Property, who has been at very great Expence in draining and manuring, and he manages it as well as it can possibly be managed, and he may have One or Two Pieces of Land that may have brought him Three Quarters of Wheat an Acre.

Has that Person increased or diminished the Quantity of Labour upon his Farm within the last Six Years?

He has increased it.

Do you think that the Increase in his Crops has repaid him for the Expenditure which he has laid out upon that Farm in Labour?

It has paid him; that is, when I say it has paid him, it has cleared him so far, because I had it from himself; and of course he expects the Profit to come afterwards.

What is the Rate of Profit which the Farmers in your Country make upon their Capital?

[136]

It is impossible to say; it ought to be Ten per Cent.; but they say they have not made any Profit, because there is not sufficient Quantity of Corn grown upon the Land. What I mean to say is this, that if there are Two Farmers, each of them having 100 Acres, and each of them pay the same in Rent and Taxes, but if one of them spends more, both in manual Labour and in dressing the Land, than the other, he will probably get Double the Amount of Produce that the other does, although the only Difference in their Expenditure is in the Labour and in the dressing; and therefore he will receive a much better Return than the other.

With respect to the Person who told you that he had cleared himself, do you mean to say that he had made Ten per Cent. upon his Capital?

I cannot say as to that; what he told me was, that he had cleared his Expences.

Does the Farm which you occupy for Mr. Poyntz, and on which you have expended a great deal more Capital than other Farmers have done, return a Profit of 10£. per Cent.?

I cannot speak to that exactly; but my firm Opinion is; that it is farmed at a Profit at this Time; and I can only say that the Produce this last Year has been more than Four Times what it has been in any other Year that I have had to do with it.

Do you conceive that the Evil of which you complain, of an adequate Capital not being employed upon the Land, is an Evil upon the Increase, or that it is diminishing?

I think it is upon the Increase, certainly. It must be upon the Increase, if a Man begins without Capital; and I am sorry to say that in cold Lands it is too often the Case that a Man that has Capital will not have it; and, therefore, if a Man takes it without Capital, of course his Crops would get worse and worse, because it is impossible that he can do what he ought to do.

From your Observation generally in Farming Parishes, do you conceive that in general the Farming Capital has gone on increasing or diminishing within these last few Years?

Diminishing.

Do you conceive that if the Amount paid to the Labourer from the Poor Rate, in addition to the Payment that is made to him for Labour now performed, were paid in the Shape of Payment for Labour, that it would produce a profitable Application of that Money to the Payer?

No doubt it would.

Have you ever known any Parish in which the Land was so well cultivated that it would not produce such a Return for an additional Outlay of Capital?

I have never seen such Land.

Suppose the Produce of Land to bear such a Price as to make a proper Return for Capital, is it your Opinion that the Demand for Agricultural Labour would increase to such a Degree as to absorb the Quantity of Labour now unemployed?

Yes, it would.

You were understood to state that the Wages paid in your Parish by the several Occupiers are unequal; do those Men who receive only 8s. per Week for their Labour, of similar bodily Strength with others that receive 10s. have the Difference made up to them from the Poor Rates?

Certainly not; that has never been the Case in any Parish I have had to do with.

In those Parishes, if the Rent of the Land was reduced Fifty per Cent. do you conceive that that would increase the Demand for Labour?

I fear not much; because if the Rent and the Tithe were remitted to those Men, I think they could not go on without something more was done for them, because they have not a Shilling.

Therefore, you are of Opinion that the Reduction of Rents would not produce a corresponding Increase in the Demand for Labour?

I think not, generally.

[137]

Do you conceive that if a Gentleman was obliged to reduce his Rents Fifty per Cent. he would employ as many Labourers as he does now?

He could not.

Do you know the Parish of Armbersham in Hants?

Yes.

Do you find that that Parish is in a better Condition than the neighbouring Parishes?

I think perhaps it is not so bad, because the Number of Paupers in the Parish is very small. I suppose there are not at present more than Two unemployed.

Do you account for that by the Distance that they have to go to a County Magistrate?

No, I do not.

If the Poor Rates were less, would not the Farmers be able to employ more Labourers?

No doubt they would; but what I mean to say is, that the present Race of Farmers could not, without having Money advanced to them, do any thing to remedy their Condition. Many of them who are farming upon the poor Lands never had Capital.

Can you state whether the County Rates have increased in your Division?

They have increased.

Have the Cottagers in your Parish generally got any Land in their own Occupation?

They have Land in their own Occupation, generally. A Field was allotted for that Purpose. Mr. Poyntz, many Years ago, encouraged every industrious Man, by allotting him out a Piece of Garden. There are not many Labourers in our Parish belonging to Mr. Poyntz but what have a Garden with their Cottage, from a Quarter of an Acre to Half an Acre; but there are many belonging to other Parties that have no Garden, and to those we give a Bit of Garden out of this Field.

Do they cultivate those Gardens well?

Yes.

Do they pay their Rents punctually for those Gardens?

Our Cottage Rents are not more than from 50s. to 3l. Most of the Cottagers do not pay Rent for their Cottages. They take turn in going out with the Gamekeepers to watch, and consequently they live Rent-free.

Do they keep Pigs, generally?

Yes.

Do you find that that is any Relief to the Poor Rate?

I cannot say that it is, because the Poor Rates are got to that State of Abuse that I think nothing can be done to relieve them. I know that in our Neighbourhood there has been a Case in which a Man that is earning 18s. a Week is receiving the same Allowances for his Children as a Man that was only receiving 9s.

Was that the Result of the Decision of the Vestry?

It has been the Result of a Magistrate's Order. The Man has gone to a Magistrate, and complained, and the Wages that he was earning were never taken into Consideration accurately. I know a Man, a Sawyer, one of my own Men, who gets 18s. or 19s. a Week, and that Man has had the same Relief as another Man that has had 9s.; and I know he is receiving the same for his Children now.

Do you know on what Ground that Relief is ordered?

I cannot say.

Is it not in consequence of a printed Paper which the Magistrates signed?

I believe it was.

[138]

Have you ever complained to the Guardian of the Poor in that Parish of that Practice?

I have complained of it; and he said that if they did not pay the Man the Sum for his Children, the Magistrate would order it to be paid; and they once refused in a Case something like that, where a Man was earning 10s. a Week, and was living with his Father-in-Law, a Man who had got a Copyhold Property worth 6£. or 7£. a Year, and the Daughter was his only Child. This Man, instantly that he had a Third Child, came to the Parish and demanded Payment for his Child. I happened to be at the Vestry Meeting, and I said, "Now really this is abominable; here is a Man earning his 10s. a Week; he lives in his Father-inLaw's House, who is also getting his 10s. a Week." I said, "This is too bad; your Father ought to assist you, and you ought to be ashamed." The Vestry backed me in it, and away the Man went. Then he went to the Magistrates, and they ordered him to be paid, without taking into Consideration the Earnings of the Man.

Was there a regular Order made upon the Guardian of the Poor, or did he merely submit?

I believe there was a regular Order made.

Did nobody advise him to resist that Order?

Not that I know of.

Did you inform Mr. Poyntz of this Circumstance?

I do not know that I did; it happened very recently.

Was it since the Disturbances?

I think it was about the Time of the Disturbances.

Do you know whether the Paupers in the United Workhouse are employed upon any Work?

I do not know whether there is any Manufactory carried on there now. I believe some of them are employed upon a Farm which the Poorhouse Farmer has Three Miles off.

Have Instances of excessive Relief, similar to that which you have stated, occurred frequently in your District?

They have; but I do not know that the Men have had quite so much Earnings as that Man. There is no Man in the Parish, perhaps, that earns quite so much as that Man and his Brother, who are Two Sawyers.

Was the Guardian of the Parish summoned before the Magistrate upon that Occasion?

He was.

Has Mr. Poyntz permitted a Part of the Waste in the Parish of Midhurst to be inclosed lately by the Parish?

Yes.

Is the Land good or bad?

It is very bad Land, as poor as possible; I am afraid it will never answer the Purpose.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday the 10th of February next.