House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 14 February 1645

Pages 193-194

Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 7, 1644. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.

This free content was digitised by double rekeying. All rights reserved.

Page 193
Page 194

In this section

DIE Veneris, 14 die Februarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Rayner.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

L. General.
L. Admiral.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Kent.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Suff.
Ds. North.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Bruce.
Ds. Mountague.

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Edward Leech, &c. sent with a Message to the House of Commons Yesterday, return with this Answer:

That they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Ives to discover the chief of those who endeavoured to get a Petition to the Commissioners for the Treaty; and Mr. Kempe to be attached.

Ordered, That Robert Ives, who voluntarily tendered himself to this House, shall enter into Bond of, Two Hundred Pounds, to endeavour to find out the chief Actors of those that endeavoured to draw Multitudes of People (fn. 1) to sign a Petition to the Commissioners at Uxbridge, and afterwards to render himself a true Prisoner to this House, if it be required by this House.

Ordered, That Mr. Kempe, of Wickham, shall be attached by the Gentleman Usher attending this House, and kept in safe Custody until this House gives further Direction.

Committee for treating with the Swedish Agent.

The Earl of Manchester reported from the Committee of both Kingdoms, "That the said Committee finds that the Power that hath been given to this Committee, concerning the receiving of the Propositions of the Swedish Agent, may be enlarged to a Power to treat with him, and prepare Things to be offered to both Houses, if the Houses shall so think fit."

Upon this Report, this House Agreed to give the said Committee the Power aforesaid; and Ordered, To desire the House of Commons Concurrence herein.

Ordinance for swearing the Sheriff of Lancashire.

The Ordinance brought from the House of Commons Yesterday, concerning swearing the Sheriff of Lancashire, was read Twice, and Ordered to be committed to the Consideration of these Lords following:

L. Admiral.
Comes Kent.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Stamford.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Ds. North.
Ds. Howard.

Any Five, to meet on Monday next, in the Afternoon, at Three a Clock.

Message from the H. C for a further Conference on the Ordinance for putting the Army under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax, &c.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight &c.

To desire a Free Conference, concerning the late Conference touching the Ordinance for the new Model of the Army, at such Time as their Lordships shall think fit; and also to communicate some Things to their Lordships concerning the Forces under Sir Wm. Waller.

Graves's and Balfore's Regiments mutiny.

The Lord General acquainted this House with a Letter from Colonel Graves; signifying, "That Sir Wm. Balfore's Regiment and his Regiment mutinied, and refused to march with Sir Wm. Waller."

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about it.

Ordered, That this Letter be communicated to the House of Commons, at the next Conference; and desire that some speedy Course may be taken, to prevent this.

And accordingly a Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Dr. Aylett, to this Purpose.

The Answer returned was:


That this House will give a present Free Conference, as is desired, in the Painted Chamber.

Ordinance concerning Jersey.

Next, the Lord Admiral reported from the Committee the Ordinance concerning the Isle of Jersey, as fit to pass as it is; which being read the Third Time, it was approved of; and Ordered, To be communicated to the House of Commons, and desire their Concurrence to it.

The Lord Admiral, Earl Manchester, and the Lord Wharton, are appointed to report the Conference.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being (fn. 2) ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference concerning the Ordinance for putting the Army under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax, and for new modeling it.

The Earl of Manchester reported the Conference (fn. 3), to this Effect:

"That the Occasion of this Conference was, concerning the last Additions to the Proviso in the Ordinance for the new Model of the Army, which consisted of Two Parts: The Manner of the taking the Covenant by the Officers and Soldiers, to which the House of Commons Agreed to: The Second Part was the disabling Part, to which they did not Agree to, because the Proviso for taking the Covenant was far stronger as they brought up altered before; yet their Lordships sent them a new additional Clause, with a Penalty inflicted, which is in no other Case inflicted; and it is a Clause of an unusual Nature, for it puts the Officers in an Incapability of further Employment, and so disables (fn. 4) them forever. Besides, they hold it inconvenient to enjoin it with a Penalty of Disabling, in regard of the Time, when at this Time many Officers refuse to obey the Commands of Parliament, as, they said, would appear by a Letter from the Commissioners for mustering the General's Army, and a Letter from Sir Wm. Waller, and another from Colonel Graves; which being read, Mr. Browne said, That in the Proviso there is sufficient Course taken for those as shall refuse to take the Covenant, without the disabling Part; that the House of Commons were of the same Mind as their Lordships were, that all shall take the Covenant; they will derogate nothing from the Covenant; only differ, not to disable all that will not take the Covenant: There is Care (fn. 4) taken in the Proviso, that such as refuse their Names shall be returned to the Houses; and then will be a Time to consider what to do with them.

"But, if it be objected that both Houses have excluded their Members respectively from sitting in the House until they have taken the Covenant, (fn. 5) why then not a disabling for the Officers in the Army? Which may receive this Answer, That, though the Houses will not admit Men to be of their Counsels before they have taken it, yet they may admit Men to be their Servants. Therefore the House of Commons desired their Lordships Concurrence in the Proviso, without the disabling Part; and that the Letters may be referred to the Consideration of the Committee of both Kingdoms, to take some speedy Course therein."

Resolved, upon the Question, That the Debate of the Reasons of this Conference concerning the Ordinance for the Model of the Army shall be deferred until Tomorrow Morning.

Ordered, That the Consideration of the Three Letters be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms.

Answer to the H. C. concerning this Conference.

The Answer to be returned to the House of Commons was:

To let them know, that, this Business being of great Consequence, their Lordships have put off the Debate of it till To morrow Morning, and then their Lordships will take it into speedy Consideration; and that this House agreed to refer the Consideration of the Three Letters to the Committee of both Kingdoms.

The Lords went into the Painted Chamber, to give the House of Commons this Answer as aforesaid.


House adjourned till 9a cras.


  • 1. Deest in Originali.
  • 2. Deest in Originali.
  • 3. Origin. Conference of the Conference.
  • 4. Bis in Originali.
  • 5. Origin. when.