Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 8, 1645-1647. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.
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DIE Jovis, 26 die Martii.
PRAYERS, by Mr. Valentine.
Comes Manchester, Speaker.
Petition of Sutton's Hospital, to free their Lands from Assessments.
Upon reading the Petition of the poor Men, Pensioners of Sutton's Hospitall; to desire, "That the Lands belonging to their Hospital may be freed from Taxes and Assessments; an Ordinance to this Purpose having passed this House, and sent to the House of Commons, may be expedited."
It is Ordered, To send this Petition to the House of Commons, and to put them in Mind of the expediting the said Ordinance.
Shamler, a Pass.
Ordered, That Mr. Shamler shall have a Pass, to go beyond the Seas.
Upon reading the Petition of Mr. Braughton: It is Ordered, To be recommended to the House of Commons.
Clark to be instituted to Stockton.
Ordered, That Sir Nath. Brent shall give Institution and Induction to Wm. Clerke Master of Arts, unto the Church and Rectory of Stockton, in the Diocese of Coventry and Litchfeila; he being presented thereunto by Ric'd Beringer.
Barton's Translation of the Psalms.
Upon reading the Petition of Mr. Wm. Barton, concerning his Translation of his Book of the Psalms: It is Ordered, To recommend the same to the Assembly of Divines, to certify to this House why these Psalms may not be sung in Churches as well as other Translations, by such as are willing to use them.
Lee to be instituted to Limington Hastings.
Ordered, That Doctor Aylett shall give Institution and Induction to John Lee Clerk, Master of Arts, to the Vicarage of the Church of Lemington Hastings, in the Diocese of Coventry; the said Mr. Lee being presented to the same by Sir Tho. Trevor Knight, One of the Barons of the Exchequer.
Woodroff's Ordinance to be Rector of Chartham.
An Ordinance was brought in, for appointing Mr. Thomas Woodrooffe Master of Arts, to be Rector and Parson of Chartam, in the County of Kent; which was read, and Agreed to, and Ordered to be sent to the House of Commons, for their Concurrence therein.
Message from the H. C. to expedite the Propositions.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight:
To desire that their Lordships would please to speed the Propositions lately brought at the last Conference, that so they may be communicated to the Scotts Commissioners, as is desired.
The Answer returned was:
That this (fn. 1) House was in Consideration of the Propositions, and will give them what Expedition possible they can.
Dr. Bond to be Master of Trinity Hall, Cambridge.
Ordered, That this House approves of John Bond, Doctor of the Civil Law, to be Master of Trinity Hall, in Cambridge; he being elected by Fellows of the said College.
Report of the Conference on the Propositions.
The Earl of Manchester, Speaker, reported the Effect of the last Conference with the House of Commons concerning the Propositions; which was,
"That the House of Commons, having taken the last Paper received from the Scotts Commissioners into Consideration, have stated the Matter, and made some Votes, wherein they desire their Lordships Concurrence."
(Here enter the Matters of Fact and the Votes.)
Ordered, That this Business be referred to the Committee of Fifteen, that was appointed formerly to draw up an Answer to the King's Letter; to meet To-morrow in the Afternoon, at Three of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber, with a Committee of the House of Commons; and that the Scotts Commissioners be desired to be at the same Time present; and that a Copy of the Votes be communicated to them in the mean Time, to the Scotts Commissioners, (fn. 2) for the better Expedition of that Business.
Message to the H. C. for Committees to treat with the Scots Commissioners about them.
A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Justice Phesant and Mr. Justice Roll:
To let them know, that the Lords have agreed to the Votes concerning the Propositions delivered at the Conference on Tuesday last; and that they have appointed the Committee of Fifteen Lords, formerly named to draw up the Answer to the King's last Letter, to meet with a Committee of a like Proportion of their House, to treat with the Scotts Commissioners, concerning the said Votes, at Three of the Clock in the Afternoon Tomorrow, in the Painted Chamber; and in the mean Time that the Scotts Commissioners be desired to be then present; and to desire Concurrence, that the Votes and Matters of Fact in the mean Time may be sent to the Scotts Commissioners, to the End they may be prepared for the said Meeting, for a speedy Dispatch of the Business.
Message from thence, with a Letter from the West;
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir John Danvers Knight:
1. To acquaint their Lordships with a Letter received out of the West, concerning the Affairs there.
(Here enter it.)
with an Ordinance and Order;
2. An Ordinance for Eighty-four Thousand Eight Hundred Forty-seven Pounds, Thirteen Shillings, and Four Pence, for recruiting the Army.
3. An Order for Major Hornehold to have One Hundred Pounds.
to communicate the King's Letter to the Scots Commissioners, and to the Common Council.
4. To desire that the Letter from His Majesty may this Afternoon be communicated, by the Members of both Houses that are of the Committee of both Kingdoms, to the Scotts Commissioners; and that then it may likewise this Afternoon be communicated to the Common Council, by the Committee of both Houses that are this Afternoon to repair thither unto them, with such Observations upon it as they shall think fit; and that the Care of this Business be more particularly referred to Mr. Sam. Browne.
Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees that this Letter of His Majesty's be communicated, by the Members of both Houses that are of the Committee of both Kingdoms, to the Scotts Commissioners this Afternoon.
Resolved, upon [ (fn. 3) the Question,] That this † House agrees not with the House [† of Commons] to have the Letter communicated to the City, as is desired in the aforesaid Vote.
and the Letter from the West to the Common Council;
5. To desire that the Letter from the West be communicated to the Common Council of London.
and to sit a while.
6. To desire their Lordships would be pleased to sit a while.
The Answer returned was:
That this (fn. 4) House agrees to communicate the King's Letter this Afternoon to the Scotts Commissioners: As to the other Part of their Vote, this House doth not agree to it: Likewise they agree to have the Letter out of the West, communicated to the City, as is desired: To the rest of the Particulars, this House will take them into Consideration, and send an Answer by Messengers of their own.
Message from the H. C. with an Answer to the King's Letter, and to communicate it to the Scots Commissioners.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir John Evelyn Knight:
To deliver to their Lordships the King's last Letter, with an Answer which the House have approved of, wherein they desire their Lordships Concurrence; and, if their Lordships do agree thereunto, that it may be communicated to the Commissioners of the Kingdom of Scotland; and, if they agree to it, that then the Committee of both Kingdoms may have Power to send it away presently to the King; and the House of Commons have given their Speaker Power to subscribe the same, and desire this House to give their Speaker the like Power.
Resolved, upon the Question, That the Debate of this Letter be deferred till some other Time.
The Answer returned was:
That as to this Letter now brought, their Lordships will return an Answer by Messengers of their own.
Message from the H. C. for the King's Letter to be communicated to the Common Council.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Peter Wentworth Knight:
To desire their Lordships Concurrence, that the Committee of Lords and Commons that are to go to the Common Council of London this Afternoon, may communicate to them the King's Letter.
The Answer returned was:
That this House will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.
Message to the H. C. not to communicate it.
A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Baron Trevor and
To let them (fn. 5) know, that the Lords, having not yet taken any Resolution upon the Letter sent from His Majesty, do not think it fit it be communicated to the Common Council this Afternoon.
Message from thence, to search for suspected Persons, on account of the Danger that the City is in;
A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Ellis:
To desire that the Committee that is to go this Afternoon to the Common Council of London do acquaint them with the Danger the City is in, by reason of many dangerous People that are about the City; therefore, to do them Justice, that they would put the Ordinance into Execution, and search for suspected and dangerous Persons, and secure them, that so they may be proceeded against according to the said Ordinance.
and for the Lord Mayor, &c. to meet the Two Houses at Christ Church on the Thanksgiving-day.
2. To desire that the Committee this Afternoon may acquaint the City, that both Houses have appointed Thursday next to be a Day of Thanksgiving; and that both Houses are to meet on that Day at Christ-church; and to desire the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council, to meet them there likewise.
The Answer returned was:
That this House agrees to all the Particulars now brought up.
Answer from the H. C.
Mr. Justice Pheasant, &c. return with this Answer:
That the House of Commons agrees to the Message; and have appointed a Committee of Thirty of their House, to meet the Committee of Fifteen Lords, as is desired.
Report of the Conference on the Propositions for Peace.
The old Title, Preface, and Conclusion, in the former Propositions, were as are expressed in the Book.
"There are no Preface nor Conclusion as yet put to to these new Propositions thus, because the Propositions themselves are in reference to an Act of Parliament depending in the House: Secondly, the Preface and Conclusion were never agreed on till the Body of the Act be fully framed.
"The Four Lines in the Front of these Propositions, (videlicet,) ["Whereas both Houses of the Parliament of England, and the Estates of the Kingdom of Scotland, have been necessitated to undertake and prosecute the War in their just and lawful Defence"], are not, nor cannot be, taken as a Preface to all the Propositions, but only as an Introduction to the First Proposition: But, by reason of the Distance of the Writing of them to the First Proposition, may be conceived as no Part of that, though they really be Part.
"It doth not appear by the Paper delivered in by the Scottish Commissioners whether they assent to this Introduction or no.
"These Words ["the Parliament of that Kingdom"] are omitted in the First Article; but fit to be added, since desired.
"They do agree to the Second Article, which is concerning the National Covenant, and the King's taking of the same; and to the Third, which is, ["That a Bill be passed for the taking away Bishops"].
And to the Fourth, which is, ["That the calling of the Assembly of Divines may be confirmed by Act of Parliament"].
"To the Fifth and Sixth Propositions, which are concerning the Reformation of Religion, they desire to see what the Houses have done; and then they will give Answer.
"To the Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, Tenth, Eleventh and Twelfth Propositions, they do agree; the Clause set down in the Eleventh Article of the former Propositions, which is now omitted, being inserted. That Clause is this, ["And give Assurance of His consenting, in the Parliament of Scotland, to an Act ratifying the Acts of the Convention of the Estates of Scotland, called by the Council and Conservators of Peace, and the Commissions for the Common Burthens, and assembled the 22th of June, 1643, and several Times continued since, in such Manner, and with Additions and other Acts, as the Estates convened in this present Parliament shall think convenient."].
"The Seventh Proposition is for the disabling of Jesuits, &c. and more speedy Conviction of Recusants.
"The Eighth is for the Education of the Children of Papists.
"The Ninth is for the true Levying of Penalties of Papists.
"The Tenth is the passing of an Act against the Practices of Papists.
"The Eleventh is the like for the Kingdom of Scotland, concerning the Four last preceding Propositions, wherein these Words ["the Parliament of Scotland"] are omitted.
"The Twelfth is concerning the due Observation of the Lord's-day, the suppressing of Innovations, against Pluralities, for the reforming of the Universities, and an Act for raising of Monies for Payment of the Public Debts and Damages of the Kingdom, and other Public Uses as shall hereafter be agreed on by both Houses of Parliament; and that if the King do not give His Assent thereunto, then, it being done by both Houses of Parliament, the same shall be as valid to all Intents and Purposes as if the Royal Assent had been given thereunto; and for the passing of an Act whereby the Debts of the Kingdom, and the Persons of Delinquents, and the Value of their Estates, may be known.
"All these they agree unto, if you consent to the Addition of the Clause desired.
"Touching that which now is the Thirteenth, and was formerly the Twelfth Proposition; they conceive there was a Treaty at Edinburgh, the 28th of November, 1643, which is now excluded by these Words in this new Proposition ["and whereunto they are obliged by the aforesaid Treaties"]; and therefore desire the said Treaty, with the Ordinances of the Ninth of March and 11th of April ratifying the same, may be expressed touching which the Committee offers the Matter of Fact.
"That which is called a Treaty of the 28th of November, 1643, concerning Ireland, doth appear, from the Preamble therein expressed, to be only preparatory Propositions agreed upon by Committees of both Kingdoms, to be presented to both Houses of Parliament of England, for their Resolution in the Particulars therein contained, without any Obligation of a Treaty thereupon between the Two Kingdoms.
"That the Votes of both Houses, of the 9th of March and 11th of April, are in the Nature of Ordinances of Parliament, upon Consideration had of the Matter of those Propositions; and contain nothing in them whereby any such Construction of a Treaty should be put upon them.
"That the Votes of the 9th of March and 11th of April were sent to the Scottish Commissioners, to let them know what the Houses have done; that nothing appears in the sending of them they had the least Intention to imply them to be a Treaty.
"That in the Twelfth Proposition, and the last Clause of the Seventeenth Proposition, sent to Uxbridge, and in the Papers which were delivered in by the Commissioners of both Kingdoms, the Treaties between the Two Kingdoms desired to be confirmed are particularly enumerated, and likewise the Ordinances.
"Now these Votes are not mentioned among the Treaties; but are expressed by the Name of Ordinances, and so desired to be confirmed.
"That, since the Treaty of Uxbridge, the House have delivered their Opinions in the Matter in Question, as may appear by the Votes themselves.
(fn. 6) Vide the Votes.
"(Vide the Letter of the 25th of May, 1644.)
"As to that which is the Fourteenth Proposition now, which was formerly the Thirteenth, concerning Ireland; it was before thus, ["That an Act be passed in the Parliament of both Kingdoms respectively"]: It is now thus, ["That an Act of Parliament be passed, to declare and make void the Cessation of Ireland, and all Treaties and Conclusions of Peace, or any Articles thereupon, with Rebels, without Consent of both Houses of Parliament: and to settle the Prosecution of the War of Ireland in both Houses of the Parliament of England, to be managed by them; and the King to assist, and do no Act to discountenance or molest them therein: That the King do give His Royal Assent to such Bill or Bills as shall be passed by both Houses of the Parliament of England for the Establishment of the true Reformed Protestant Religion throughout the whole Kingdom of Ireland, and the utter abolishing of Popery there; and that the Chief Governors of Ireland shall not obey or proceed according to any other Orders, Commissions, Directions, or Instructions, than such as shall be from Time to Time assented unto by both the Houses of the Parliament of England."]: They desire that the former Part of this Proposition may stand as formerly; and as to the latter Part now added; that the Articles concerning the Settling of Religion in this Kingdom may be extended to Ireland, according to the Covenant: So the Difference is, whereas before the Prosecution of the War was to be managed by Commissioners, it is now to be managed by both Houses of Parliament of England, as the Militia of England now is, which by the former Propotions was placed in Commissioners.
"It is true, they have not received the Fifteenth Proposition, concerning Delinquents.
"To the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Propositions, they do agree; which are, concerning the Forces, the Arming, Training, and Disciplining the Forces by Land and Sea, wherein the Words ["the Parliament of Scotland"] are omitted.
"And the Seventeenth Proposition is, for the raising of Monies for those Forces; to which they agree also.
"For the Eighteenth Proposition, which is, ["That those Forces shall be managed and disposed by both Houses of Parliament"]; they say, they find material Differences from what was agreed on formerly.
"For Matter of Fact, they neither consent unto nor deny this Proposition; but offer Reasons why it is fit for further Consideration:
"First, they say, the former Propositions did settle a Power in the Commissioners of both Kingdoms, (fn. 7) for resisting all Foreign Invasions, and for suppressing all Forces raised within either of the Kingdoms to the Disturbance of their Peace; and that this new Proposition contains nothing to prevent these Inconveniencies.
For Matter of Fact, we find the Third Branch of that Proposition to be thus: ["To conjoin such Forces of the Kingdom of England with the Forces of the Kingdom of Scotland, as the said Houses of Parliament shall from Time to Time judge fit and necessary, to resist all Foreign Invasions, and to suppress any Forces raised, or to be raised, against or within either of the said Kingdoms, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the said Kingdoms, or any of them, by any Authority under the Great Seal, or other Warrant whatsoever, without Consent of both Houses of Parliament of England, and the Parliament or Estates of the Parliament of Scotland respectively"]; which prevents the Inconveveniencies objected.
"Secondly, they say, There is no Care taken, nor Means used, for Conservation of the Peace between the Two Kingdoms in these new Propositions.
"To that, the Matter of Fact stands thus: There is a Commission for Conservation of the Peace between the Two Kingdoms desired by the large Treaty, which Treaty is now desired to be confirmed by these Propositions; but indeed there is none yet expressed with the relation to the Peace now to be settled.
"To the Nineteenth Proposition they do agree; which is, ["That the King give His Assent to what the Two Kingdoms shall agree upon in Prosecution of the Articles of the large Treaty"].
"And they do agree to the Twentieth Proposition; which is, ["That, by Act of Parliament, all Peers made since the Day that Edward Lord Littleton, then Lord Keeper of the Great Seal, &c. shall not sit or vote"].
"And to the One and Twentieth Proposition, which is concerning the Nomination of the Deputy of Ireland, and other Great Officers in England and Ireland, with this Addition, ["the like for the Kingdom of Scotland, concerning the Nomination of the Lords of the Privy Council, Lords of Session and Exchequer Officers of State, and Justice General, in such Manner as the States in Parliament there shall think fit"].
"The Propositions concerning the Education of the King's Children, concerning the making of Peace and War with Foreign Princes, the Disbanding of the Armies, and the passing of an Act of Oblivion, are omitted in these Propositions.
"They desire that the Propositions concerning the City of London and Delinquents may be speedily sent unto them; which we think reasonable."
(fn. 8) Votes in Answer to a Paper of the Scots Commissioners sent up with the Paper of Matter of Fact.
"Resolved, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That the Matter of Fact, with the Reasons thereof, be communicated to the Scotts Commissioners, as to their Desire concerning the Preamble, Title, and Conclusion of the Propositions formerly sent; and their Concurrence desired to the Four Lines to be admitted as Part of the First Proposition.
"Resolved, &c. Agreed, that these Words ["the Parliament of that Kingdom"] be added to these Words ["the Convention of the Estates"].
"Resolved, &c. That the several Ordinances passed both Houses concerning Religion be communicated to the Scotts Commissioners.
"Resolved, &c. That the Consent and Concurrence of the Scotts Commissioners be again desired to the Fifth and Sixth Propositions.
"Resolved, &c. That their Consent be again desired to the Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, Tenth, Eleventh, and Twelfth Propositions, as they were lately sent to them; the House doth agree, that these Words ["the Parliament of Scotland"] be added.
"Resolved, &c. That the Clause desired by the Scottish Commissioners to be added, concerning the ratifying the Acts of the Convention of Estates and Parliament of Scotland, shall be treated on by a Committee.
"Resolved, &c. That it be referred to a Committee, to make it appear unto the Commissioners of Scotland, that the Transactions of the 28th of November, concerning Ireland, at Edinburgh, are no Treaty; and that the Matter of Fact now stated concerning the same be communicated unto them.
"Resolved, &c. That the (fn. 9) Commissioners be desired to consent to the Propositions concerning Ireland as they were last sent unto them; and that the Committee do treat with them thereupon, and give them Reasons for it.
"Ordered, &c. That these Words ["the like for the Kingdom of Scotland"] be added to the Sixteenth, Seventeenth, and Eighteenth Propositions, concerning the Militia.
"Resolved, &c. That the Scotts Commissioners Consent be desired to the Eighteenth Proposition, concerning the Militia; and that it be referred to the Committee to treat with them, and to give them Reasons for the consenting thereunto.
"Ordered, &c. That the same Course be held for Conservation of the Peace between the Two Kingdoms, in relation to the Peace to be made upon the Propositions to be now sent unto His Majesty, as was provided and agreed upon in the Articles of the large Treaty.
"The Lords Concurrence to be desired herein; which is assented unto.
"The Houses do intend that the Propositions concerning Delinquents and the City shall be speedily sent unto them.
"Ordered, &c. That the Houses do agree, that these Words [" the like for the Kingdom of Scotland, concerning the Nomination of the Lords of the Privy Council, Lords of Session and Exchequer, Officers of State, and Justices General, in such Manner as the States in Parliament there shall think fit"] be added to the One and Twentieth Proposition.
"Resolved, &c. That it be referred to the Committee to treat with the Scottish Commissioners, to give them Reasons why the Houses do insist upon the Propositions only for the present, not declining the sending of the rest of the Propositions in convenient Time.
"Ordered, That the Lords be desired to nominate a Committee of a proportionable Number of this House, that may have Power to treat with the Commissioners of Scotland as aforesaid, to communicate the Matter of Fact, Votes, and Resolutions of the Houses, and give Reasons in Pursuance of the same; and desire the Concurrence of the Scotts Commissioners to the Propositions as they are now passed both Houses, and report their Proceedings to the Houses with all convenient Speed.
Committee to acquaint the Common Council with the Danger that the City is in, and desire that suspected Persons may be searched for.
"Resolved, &c. That this Afternoon the Committee that are to go into the City, to declare to the City the Dangers the Parliament, City, and Kingdom are in by the Multitude of Persons that are in and about the City, which have come from the King's Quarters, and which may come in from thence hereafter; and to desire them, that the Committee for the Militia do put those Powers they are intrusted with into due Execution, and to take Care that all such Persons as they shall conceive to be dangerous may have their Persons secured, or be removed out of the Lines of Communication; which the said Committee of the Militia are ordered to do accordingly, and that they give this House Account of their Proceedings herein."