Proceedings in Parliament 1624: The House of Commons. Originally published by British History Online, 2015-18.
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THURSDAY, 22 APRIL 1624
I. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/13
[CJ 772; f. 156]
Jovis, 22 Aprilis 1624
L. 2. An act for avoiding/
Tuesday, 2 [o']clock, Court of Wards.
[Philip] Jacobson's bill, tomorrow morning, 7 [o']clock, Court of Wards.
MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. Lord Wentworth desires to have some names put into his bill that have compounded.
Agreed, they shall be put in.
L. 2. An act to prevent great charge and expense that divers are put unto by laying actions of debt, and other actions, in London and Middlesex.
Sir Edward Coke
Mr. [John] Carvile
Mr. [Thomas] Wentworth
Mr. [Thomas] Whatman
Sir Robert More
Mr. [Charles] Price
Sir Henry Poole
And all that will come to have voice. Tomorrow, 2 [o']clock, Court of Wards.
SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. To have the bill of subsidy have his first reading, and then, during our sitting, to go on with public bills that the honour of the King and the good of the subject may go hand in hand.
Ordered, that after this business, the public and private bills shall be put to the question.
Pretermitted customs to be debated on Saturday morning, 9 [o']clock.
Sir Edward Coke sent up to the Lords with 2 bills: inferior courts and Sir Thomas Cheke's bill.
[f. 157] L. 1. The bill of subsidy.
Sir Henry Vane's patent read.
He tenders a proviso to the bill of monopolies, which was read.
A message from the Lords by Serjeant [Sir John] Davies and Sir William Byrd. The Lords have sent this message. They desire the committee of this House that have formerly met about the recusants may forthwith meet their committee, in the Painted Chamber. And have sent down 3 private bills, the one entitled an act/
Answer: this House will presently give a meeting, as is desired.
Ordered, that whosoever shall go out of the House to the conference before the committees shall pay 12[d.] to the Serjeant.
Solicitor to make the report from this conference.
MR. [WILLIAM] DENNY reports Peter Verbeake's bill.
Ordered, to be engrossed.
MR. [JOHN] WHISTLER reports the bill to make the river of Thames navigable to Oxford.
SIR HENRY POOLE. To have the bill recommitted. A petition from divers inhabitants.
The bill, upon question, recommitted, and counsel of the petitioners to be heard at the committee. Court of Wards, Saturday morning, 7 [o']clock.
[f. 157v] MR. SOLICITOR reports from the Lords. Duke of Buckingham acquainted that 2 days since he was directed by the Prince to move the King for a day when they might be heard. He did it, but the King for some reasons then forbore. Yesterday, the Duke hearing the subsidy in a good forward[ness], acquainted him with it. Said he would not be backward with his people. Gave order we should wait upon him tomorrow, at Whitehall, in the evening. King said there was somewhat put into the bill of subsidy which was inconvenient. Duke answered, it was ill done of him that acquainted him with the generality and not with the particular. King bad[e] him acquaint the House that they should be careful that nothing should be put in that might any ways. For the mentioning of the dissolution of the treaties, would not be against that.
Prince bad[e] him tell the House that this morning they had passed the bill of certiorari.
A motion of his own to [ap]point a short day for the second reading of the bill of subsidy.
[CJ 773] SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. To have it on Saturday next.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD, accordant. And to have it in the afternoon. 13 Edw. 3 a clause that the Parliament should meet again at such a time.
Ordered, that the bill of subsidy shall be secondly read on Saturday morning at 7 [o']clock.
A petition of the clerks of the Chancery against the subpoena office read.
SIR HENRY VANE. Will get a copy of his patent and bring it to the House.
[f. 158] SIR EDWARD LEECH. To have all these provisos entertained, but withal, to have a legal trial against them at the common law.
These are to take view of the several patents and provisos tendered to the bill of monopolies, and to take into consideration the increase of fees in the subpoena office. Saturday, 2 [o']clock, Star Chamber.
Continuance of statutes to be reported tomorrow morning and then engrossed bills to be read.
SIR HENRY MILDMAY. A suit depending in the Court of Wards between Sir George Manners and the Lady Willoughby. The Court of Wards will not proceed therein because Sir George Manners a member of this House.
II. DIARY OF JOHN HAWARDE, WILTSHIRE AND SWINDON ARCHIVES, 9/34/2
Jovis, 22 Aprilis 1624
1. L. Bill pur 3 subsidies et 3 fiveteenes fuit lie.
Le pattente de 170 Eliz. pur fesant subpenaes fuit lie, et [SIR EUBULE] THELWALL move que ceux fees devant 17 Eliz. pur 300 ans apperteignante al 12 clerkes del Chancery, et proviso offer ore al bill del monopolies pur saver cest pattente al [blank] Gorges et Sir Henry Vane.
Message del seignours par Sergeante [Sir John] Davies et Doctor [Sir William] Byrd pur present conference touchant le peticion [et] 3 bills:
- 1. Pur [Sir] Peter Vanlore etc.
- 2. Pur naturalizinge Doctor [John] Young.
- 3. Pur naturalizinge 2 Murrays.
MR. [WILLIAM] DENNY reporte le bill de naturalisinge [blank] Beake [sic].
Sur question, deste ingrosse.
MR. SOLLICITOR reporte le message deliver par Duke de Buckingham. Que le Prince avoit desire luy pur mover le Roy davoir le peticion delyver pur recusants, Jesuites et seminaries. [p. 252] Le Roy al primer mocion respond que adonque pur autre important busynes ne puit intender, but yesterdaye takinge opportunitie mooved it agayne. And then the Kinge sayde, "I heare they are in a good forwardnes for the subsidie, is it true they are so?". The Duke sayde it was. "How doe you knowe it?", sayd the Kinge. "Sir, I knowe it to be true", quoth the Duke, "and tomorrow it will be reade in the howse." "But", quothe the Kinge, "I heare there are some things in that bill that are dishonorable to us and not fitte to passe." "What are they, sir?", quoth the Duke. "Nay, I knowe not", quoth the Kinge. "Then, sir, they have done you and the Howse wronge that informe you." "Nay", quoth the Kinge, "I doe not mislyke the breache of the treaties to be mencyoned [p. 253] and conteyend within the bill for I will avouche it, and seing they are so mindefull of mee I will be before them and tomorrowe in the eveninge at Whitehall I will receave there [sic] petition and there is greate hoape of good contente."
I praye God grante it for it is a busynes of very greate consequence.
The Prince tolde them our bill of certiorares and supersedeas was paste.
Upon this gracyouse conference, the SOLLICITOR moved for some grace from us to requyte this; that some speedie time mighte be appointed for a second reading for this bill of subsidie, which, after some shorte debate, Satterdaye morninge was appointed and to debate it in the afternoon yf there was cause.
After this, a committee was appointed for the bill of monopolies to consyder of the proviso offered by Sir Henry Vane and the righte of the clerkes' clayme for the subpenaes.
III. DIARY OF EDWARD NICHOLAS, TNA, SP 14/166
Thursday, 22 Aprilis 1624
A proviso offered by SIR HENRY VANE that the act against monopolies shall not extend nor be prejudicial to the patent granted for the sole making of subpoenas.
SIR EUBULE THELWALL. That for these 300 years the 12 clerks of the Chancery, whereof the Master of the Rolls is one, have had the making of the subpoenas and that the Masters of the Chancery, who are assistants to that court, have not 20 marks a year allowed them for their pains, which is now greater than ever it was. He hopes that 60 y[ears'] continuance of the patentees shall not be preferred before 600 years' continuance and that this monopoly shall not be preferred before others.
Message from the Lords signifying that their Lordships desire a present conference may be between the committee of this House and that of the Lords who have been formerly employed about the petition against recusants, the place the Painted Chamber.
Answer, that we will meet as it is desired.
Order, that whosoever goes for[th] to a conference before the committee be gone shall pay 12d. apiece to the Serjeant.
The bill of subsidies is now first read.
MR. SOLICITOR reports from the conference with the Lords about the petition against recusants. That the Duke of Buckingham said that at the motion of the Prince his highness, he moved the King to appoint a time to deliver that petition and the King said that he would not be behind with his people [f. 168v] and did appoint that the committees should attend his Majesty at Whitehall tomorrow in the afternoon. The King said that he heard there was something inserted into the bill of subsidies that was not fitting, to which Buckingham said that he that told his Majesty, he did not well that informed his Majesty in the general there was something inconvenient and not name the particulars. That the King disliked not that we should in good words insert that the 2 treaties were dissolved for he would be as good as his word and does not care what honourable ties are on him to perform his promise.
Ordered, that Saturday next the bill of subsidies shall receive a second reading at 7 o'clock.
Petition of the clerks of the Chancery showing that there are many mistakings in the making of subpoenas and diverse exactions of fees used by those of the subpoena office. Many have heretofore been imprisoned for making of subpoenas. Therefore, petitioners do desire that they may be heard by their counsel before any proviso for that office be admitted to be put into the bill against monopolies.
SIR EDWARD LEECH moves the proviso for the subpoena office may be accepted and all of the like nature, but he would have a proviso added that [f. 169] such provisos shall not prejudice but that there may be proceedings against such patents at the common law.
A committee is appointed to consider of the provisos offered to be inserted into the patent of monopolies, and to view all patents for which provisos are offered, and to prepare the provisos to be offered to the Lords and to consider of the increase of fees in the subpoena office, to meet Saturday next.
Ordered, that by consent of Sir George Manners (a member of this House) that the business depending in the Court of Wards between the [sic] him and the Lady Willoughby shall go on.
Thursday, 220 Aprilis 1624, committee for trade
That since the last Parliament, by mediation and order of the lords of the Council, the outports and all others have had liberty of trading in the new manufactures of this kingdom, and since that time trade has been better than it was. A proposition is now by this committee offered that a select number of this House shall join with a select number of the Merchants [sic] Adventurers to accommodate trading for cloth and to agree on some course that may help trading in the outports and yet continue the good of the company of the Merchants [sic] Adventurers.
Alderman [Ralph] Freeman says that in the staple towns where they sell cloth and are settled beyond sea, they have more privileges than the natives of those towns [f. 169v] and have their cloths bought for 2d. a cloth, on which otherwise (if they, by being there settled, they did not draw company and do good thereby to such places) there would be 10s. imposed on a cloth; and if they should carry cloth up and down the country it would be less respected, and the merchant must take the buyer's price or carry away their cloth, which would increase a charge to the merchant who must have it again out of the cloths or help themselves on the clothier of whom they buy their cloths. That the Merchants [sic] Adventurers were hardly drawn and constrained to give the £75,000 to the King and others, for which they did lay the imposition of 7s. and 6d. on a long cloth and 5s. on a short cloth. Of this £75,000, the King when he went into Scotland had £50,000. And they desire that the impositions thus laid by them may be continued, for otherwise they must fail of payment of those of whom they have borrowed this great sum, and a great part thereof being borrowed of merchants beyond sea, and so their credits will be lost if they be not able to pay the same money, as they cannot if these impositions may not be continued.
Mr. [William] Nyell says if that [sic] there be nothing done after all these questions on trade, they will hereafter say they have satisfied 2 Parliaments; and if those who shall come into their company shall be charged with the payment of the impositions which they have [f. 170] laid on cloth towards the payment of the money they have paid, it will make all men afraid to be of their company, for they have engaged their company's seal for the money. He wishes that the Merchants [sic] Adventurers should not meddle with any manufactures nor continue their impositions, and suffer for a competent sum any merchant to be of their company.
Mr. Comptroller says that the Merchants [sic] Adventurers do lay all manner of charge that they undergo upon cloth, and therefore he would have all impositions laid by them taken off and they commanded and prohibited to lay any more, and a liberty for all men to come into their company that will, free from all those impositions. That the £50,000 which they paid is repaid to them already by these impositions, and where they say they now are charged with the pretermitted custom and the pirate money, so they would have been charged with those charges though they had not paid the £50,000.
Mr. [Richard] Knightley says that if we suffer these men to continue these impositions until they be repaid it, then will the King take of a company on all occasion a certain sum and then that company will presently lay an imposition on their trade or merchandises, which indeed is upon the subject that sells it; and it was never known before that one subject should lay an imposition on another. He would have [f. 170v] the merchants that gave the £50,000 bear the burden of it, and not the commonwealth, for otherwise it would prove an ill precedent.
Sir Edwin Sandys says that this imposition laid by the merchants is undue and unjust ab initio, for they would not have agreed to give the £50,000 but for a good bargain; and this was a mixed though not a mere voluntary act, no more than if a merchant should in a storm throw his goods out of his ship into the sea, which is a mixed voluntary act; and this imposition is laid on others to repair their losses. That for other causes alleged by them for the laying of their impositions, which are 24s. imposed by the Archduchess on a long cloth, and the consumption money (which is 32s. sterling) laid by the Low Countrymen; another is the 2s. 8d. laid on a cloth by the Earl of Cumberland; another is the pretermitted customs; and another is the fees exacted by the customers, and the pirate money, in which latter named impositions there is a course taken for the remedy of all these things, and all these things were and would have been laid had not the £50,000 been paid and therefore they ought not on colour of it continue their impositions. He would have the merchants content themselves only with meddling of white cloths, which is of far greater value than all the other merchandises, and to effect this he thinks the best means is to [f. 171] have a select committee to join in treaty with them, and to induce them to it he would have their charter for sole trading of white cloths confirmed by act of Parliament.
Ordered, that Sir E[dwin] Sandys shall report to the House that we think it fit to have a select committee appointed to treat with some of the Merchants [sic] Adventurers to accommodate trade and grow to a conclusion of this business according to such certain heads as shall be by the House appointed.
Sir Francis Nethersole says that the consumption money laid by the Low Countrymen is of greatest consequence, for by the laying of this imposition they raise our cloth to such a price as that they undersell us with the cloth they there make, and he wishes that an opportunity now offered on the treaty for the assistance of the Low Countrymen may be taken hold on for the abating of the consumption money.
IV. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS HOLLAND, BODL., MS RAWL. D1,100
22 April, Thursday
Second read, Tuesday, [Court of] Wards. An act for avoiding all deceits in physic and suppressing empirics.
Second read, Friday, [Court of] Wards, all [to have] voices. An act to prevent great charge and expense of those far remote by actions being brought to London and Middlesex.
It is ordered the pretermitted customs shall be debated on Saturday and the lawyers to have notice to prepare themselves.
The bill of subsidy. Be it enacted that both treaties be henceforth dissolved in consideration whereof for a war that may issue/
The bill for Peter Verbeake is put to the engrossing.
[f. 43v] The report, SOLICITOR. The Duke [of Buckingham] said two days ago he had received direction from the Prince to move the King for answer of the petition, which two days since he did, but the King for some reasons to himself, he stayed. Yesterday he moved him again, telling that the bill of subsidy was prepared to be read this day. The King asked him if he was sure of that. He told him he was assured of that. Then he said he would never be behindhand with his people, and therefore he willed the Duke to tell us that he will give an answer tomorrow in the evening at Whitehall. He further said that he did hear that we had inserted something in the bill to his dishonour. The Duke asked the King what it was. The King answered he heard it but in general, but he [f. 44] wished him to advise us that we put nothing in the title or in the body of the bill that should be to his dishonour, but if it be nothing but the enacting of the dissolving both treaties he is very willing and likes well of it.
The Prince told MR. SOLICITOR privately that the bill of certioraries was passed this day in their House.
Sir Henry Vane's patent of the subpoena office. The subpoena office has allowed 4 or 5 to be put into a subpoena, which they paid but 2s. 6d., but now they will scarce admit of 3 in a subpoena and they take 3s. for every one.
There is a committee appointed to prepare the proviso and to consider of Sir Henry Vane's patent and to consider of the increase of fees since 15 Eliz.
V. DIARY OF RICHARD DYOTT, STAFFORDSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, MS D661/11/1/2
Sir Henry Vane's patent for making of subpoenas. It was objected that fewer names taken in writs, increase of fees. Sir Henry Vane said they [?2 words illegible] [?first] would be and by House.
[SIR EUBULE] THELWALL. 17 El[iz]. this first [?propounded]. The 12 clerks of Chancery, whereof Master of Rolls one, had it before for 300 years. They now have not above £6 14s. 0d. for their attendance and service. They are sworn officers not these.
A message from [the] Lords for a present conference between committees of both Houses forthwith, if it may stand with our conveniency, concerning the petition against priests and Jesuits.
Answer: that the House has taken the message [f. 75] into consider[ation] and will give a present meeting.
Order, that whosoever runs out before the committee appointed to confer with Lords shall pay 12d. to Serjeant.
Report by SOLICITOR of conference with Lords. Duke of [?Buckingham] [illegible] that [illegible] days ago directions from Prince to know of King when hear our petition. Yesterday having understanding that bill of subsidy was in a good readiness. I will never be behindhand. His pleasure that [?2 words illegible] on him tomorrow at Whitehall. Heard that something into bill that put [f. 76] that inconvenient, but he was told nothing in particular [?2 illegible words] that. Not well done to speak in general not particular. King would have us take care that nothing be [illegible] [?trench] to dishonour. Does well allow that breach of the match and the recovery of the Palatinate should be inserted into the bill. Will not go [?3 words illegible] [?his] word.
The bill of certioraries passed the Lords' House.
Moved by SOLICITOR that should express our thankfulness in speeding bill of subsidies. Order, that upon Saturday morning/
13 E. 3.
[SIR EDWARD] COKE would have acquittances for the collectors of subsidies enrolled because papers may be lost.
[SIR EDWARD] COKE. Objections of clerks of Chancery against encroached offices.
- 1. Subpoena the chief means of clerks.
- 2. The patentees clerks daily mistake being strangers.
- 3. Exactions 3s. for 3 names, renewed for 6d. now 1s. 6d.
Could never have trial at law by reason of the greatness of patentees.
SOLICITOR. That the cursitors will be taken away by bill of monopolies.
[SIR THOMAS] WENTWORTH. That as by statute of limitations, no action upon above 60 y[ears] seisin. This office settled 60 y[ears]. We must not pluck up plants of 60 y[ears'] growth, at least at court gates. Would [f. 78] not have an ancient possession disturbed.
[SIR EDWARD] LEECH is content to have a proviso for that office, but desire[s] that may have a legal trial and that by proviso.
Order, that a committee may consider of the proviso which they are to prepare for the Lords, the bill being with them already. And that no parties interested shall be of the committee.
VI. DIARY OF JOHN PYM, NORTHAMPTONSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, FH/N/C/0050
[22 April 1624]
An act for 3 entire subsidies and 3 fifteens granted by the laity.
The patent to Sir Edward Gorges and Theobald Gorges of the subpoena office was brought in.
SIR HENRY VANE. That no more fees were taken than anciently, and a proviso in the patent to that purpose, which he desired might be read.
SIR EUBULE THELWALL. In 1 Eliz. twelve clerks, they and their successors £6 13s. 4d. per annum. The Master of the Rolls one of those clerks. The Masters of the Chancery of 300 years' continuance. Since these patents have intercepted the profit anciently belonging to them, they have not left so much as the meanest servant to the clerks, and remain still bound to attendance to serve the king and the people to examine all that pass the Great Seal, which was wont likewise to pass under their hands. These patentees have the commodity and left to them nothing but the oath and the charge.
The debate was interrupted by a message from the Lords for a present conference, which was granted, and reported by MR. SOLICITOR. Therein my Lord of Buckingham did declare the Prince's care for him to move his Majesty for audience concerning our petition for religion, which he had once done but without success, and yesterday did renew, taking occasion withal to tell his Majesty we had ordered this morning for the bill of subsidies, and received his answer, that he would not be backward in our business if we were not backward in his. Therefore, appointed tomorrow for the audience; and withal intimated that he heard somewhat was likely to be inserted in the preamble for the subsidy concerning the treaties and Palatinate prejudicial to his honour, wherein the Duke satisfied him. The SOLICITOR concluded with a motion for a short day for a 2nd reading of the bill of subsidy, and Saturday was appointed.
A petition preferred by the clerks of the Chancery that there were 200 families of clerks. The patentees employed clerks impoverished that write subpoenas for 3d. a dozen, who committed divers mistakings in making writs of adjournment instead of writs of appearance. The charge to the subject 7s. 2d., which anciently was but 2s. 6d. Renewing of writs anciently 6d., now [f. 78] 18d.; 4 names 2[s.] 6d., now 12d. a name. The patent contained a clause for declining the law. And that the clerk[s] had been committed for complaining.
MR. SOLICITOR. That by the same rules which void the patent we may take away cursitors.
MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. To consider as well what is convenient and conducible to our ends as what is just. There was a sequestration in Chancellor Bacon's time to special clerks, before the first patent. Not to remove ancient bounds. Assizes were heretofore limited to 30 years. To assign some reasonable part of the profit to the Masters of the Chancery and leave the rest where it is settled.
SIR EDWARD LEECH. To pass the proviso so as the patent may be tried by the common law and the parties bound to an issuable plea.
MR. SOLICITOR. This were all one as to revoke the patent, because the declaration in the bill will direct the judges.
VII. DIARY OF SIR WALTER EARLE, BL, ADD. MS 18,597
Thursday, the 22th [sic] of April
Bill of subsidy, first read.
The patent of the subpoena office brought in and read.
A message from the Lords. The Lords desire that the committee for the petition against recusants should forthwith meet with the committee of their House in the Painted Chamber.
Bills sent down withal, 3 private bills.
Report from the conference. The Duke of Buckingham, having moved the King concerning [f. 156v] the time of attending about the petition against recusants, the Duke told the King the bill of subsidy was appointed to be read. The King said if it were so, he would not be behindhand with us. He appointed tomorrow in the afternoon at Whitehall to hear us touching the petition. The King told the Duke he understood of somewhat put into the bill that was inconvenient. In general he willed the Duke to relate that he hoped nothing should be inserted to his dishonour. But for anything concerning the dissolving the treaties, he is ready to make good his word.
Ordered, the bill of subsidy should have a 2nd reading on Saturday.
A petition delivered in in the name of the clerks of Chancery against the patentees of the subpoena office.
VIII. JOURNAL OF SIR SIMONDS D'EWES, BL, HARL. MS 159
April 220, Thursday
The bill of subsidies had the first reading.
The subpoena patent brought in, read and disputed whether it should be comprised among monopolies or no. Not at that time resolved.
A message from the Lords for conference about our petition to be delivered to the King about restraint of Jesuits and priests, and executing the law against papists, of which the Duke of Buckingham delivered that by direction from the Prince he had 2 days ago moved the King to know his pleasure when he would be pleased they should come and deliver it. He answered he would consider of it; inquiring further, and hearing the bill of subsidies was preparing, he said he would not be behind with his people, and so appointed the next day at Whitehall.
Upon the report, it was ordered to give the bill of subsidies the 2nd reading the Saturday following.