Proceedings in Parliament 1624: The House of Commons. Originally published by British History Online, 2015-18.
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FRIDAY, 5 MARCH
I. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/12
[CJ 677; f. 23]
Veneris, 50 March, 210 Jacobi
L. 1a. An act for the reversing and making void of a decree made in the Chancery, and of all orders and injunctions thereupon had and made, against the Master and Fellows of Magdalene College in Cambridge, and John Smyth, lessee at the suit and prosecution of the Right Honourable Henry, Earl of Oxford, Thomas Wood, and others, for an house and grounds without Aldgate, London, contrary to the statutes 130 Eliz. cap. x et 140 Eliz. c. 11. and common law of the land.
L. 1a. An act for naturalizing of Elizabeth and Mary Vere, daughters of Sir H[orace] Vere, knight.
Upon first question, not to be committed.
Upon second question, to be engrossed.
L. 1a. An act for confirmation of Wadham College in Oxon., and the possessions thereof.
L. 1a. An act concerning the taking and purveyance of carts and carriages by land and by water for his Majesty's service.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports from the select committee yesterday that the King has appointed the committees of both Houses, this afternoon, at Theobalds.
That this select committee, where the Prince present, to special purpose: where the reasons of this House, by him, presented to the Prince. The care of this House, no copies to be delivered abroad. These approved, without alteration.
That the Lords had conceived some particular reasons, which they thought fit should be annexed to ours. Lord Chamberlain and he, by direction, withdrew, and presently did it. That this addition gives a great strength to our resolution, showing delusion from the beginning.
These read and, upon question, ordered to be copied out, and added; and no copy of any of these reasons to be made to any.
[f. 23v] Agreed at this select committee there should be a message agreed on by both Houses, which twice read and generally allowed to be the preface to the King; and so resolved, upon the question, without any addition.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. That they were informed Lord of Southampton had made an objection that the King might, upon this message, object there might be a breach with Spain, and a war, and therefore the King might demand what assistance. That hereupon the Lords grew to a resolution, which set down in writing, that if his Majesty shall be pleased to make an objection, "How then shall he do?" to give him/
That in the pursuit of this advice, we will assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes according to our abilities, as becomes good and obedient subjects.
MR. RECORDER. That the committee, having only authority to set down our reasons, have tendered us a paper. To send a message to the Lords to desire we may, as yet, go no further than answer the proposition made by the King to us for our advice. Not to have this paper now put to the question.
Serjeant [Sir John] Davies, Attorney General, bring a message from the Lords: that they have appointed 12 Lords to go in message to the King. They desire a proportionable number to meet in the Painted Chamber, 10 of the clock. That the sub-committee will, with all speed, send them the papers they have in their hands.
Answer to the messengers: we will forthwith send answer by messengers of our own.
The addition aforesaid copied out in the Committee Chamber and read, and ordered to be affixed to our reasons.
[f. 24v] MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE reports from the committee of privileges, who yesterday, upon adjournment, met in the House.
For the knights of the shire of Cambridge:
- 1. That all the committee of opinion that the election of the 2 knights there void. The under-sheriff, [Edward] Ingrey, came to the place in season. The writ read. 4 names called on: Sir Edward Peyton, Sir Simeon Steward, Sir John Cutts, Mr. [Toby] Palavicino. The view twice taken, between 9 and 11 [pm]. The poll demanded both times but not proceeded in. This demand made on both sides. The [under-]sheriff pretended he would proceed but would not. This being the true touch for trial, the election merely held void. And that a new writ to issue for a new election. This una voce.
- Secondly, that the return made by the [under-]sheriff of persons not elected a misdemeanour. Proved by 2 witnesses that about [CJ 678] 11 of the clock, he had made no election, nor who was, or ought to be, chosen. That this [under-]sheriff, after 12 and 1 [am], confessed he had committed an error, and would come back and make an election. The consequence of this great to the commonwealth, for all sheriffs may return whom they please. His age being but 22 no reason to spare his sending for.
- 3. The consideration of affidavits now produced. 63 affidavits and certificates in this case. That the committee thought not fit to admit affidavits for judicial proof:
- 1. Makes us lame, without the Chancery.
- 2. Entitles the Chancery to judge of returns.
- 3. For that affidavits cautelously made by counsel or party.
- Fourthly, witnesses produced viva voce, by words, actions, gestures, etc., discover much.
The committee prayed the direction of the House herein.
[f. 25] Upon question, the election of Sir Edward Peyton and Sir Simeon Steward void, and a writ for a new choice, nemine contradicente; and they discharged.
Upon a second question, to be sent for by the Serjeant.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] BROOKE. The [under-]sheriff did return them doubting he had not done well, and thereupon was promised to be saved harmless.
MR. [RICHARD] DYOTT. To admit affidavits to prove some circumstances, but not the merits of the cause.
MR. [JOHN] WHISTLER. To declare that affidavits were never of value here.
SIR EDWARD COKE. When he Speaker, and ever since until now of late, affidavits not used here. Sworn only of one side, drawn by counsel. Moves, no affidavit concerning any election or return may be accepted here.
MR. [HENRY] SHERFIELD. Though we examine not by oath (our power wherein will not question), yet we may punish any that shall testify untruly. So was it last Parliament in [Randolph] Davenport's case.
MR. TREASURER. That the Lords return thanks to this House for their good correspondence, which they will ever further, and will presently meet and undertake the journey.
Upon question, all affidavits to be taken in any court concerning elections, returns or anything depending thereupon, to be rejected and not hereafter to be used.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD moves the bill concerning elections and returns may be brought in.
Ordered, Sir Francis Popham's cause shall be heard first at the next committee of privileges.
[f. 25v] L. 2a. An act for the ease in the obtaining of licences of alienation, and in the pleading of alienations with licence or of pardons of alienations without licence, in the Court of Exchequer, or elsewhere.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. To commit this bill, and that the Exchequer officers may be heard by counsel. So MR. [THOMAS] BANCROFT.
Inner Temple Hall, Saturday, 2 o'clock, and counsel.
II. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/13
[CJ 728; f. 32]
Veneris, 5 Martii
L. 1a. Magdalene College.
L. 1a. An act for naturalizing of Elizabeth Vere and Mary Vere, daughters of Sir Horace Vere, knight.
[f. 32v] L. 1. An act for confirmation of Wadham College in Oxford.
L. 1a. An act concerning purveyance.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports from the conference yesterday with the Lords. Must be very brief. King has appointed committees of both Houses to attend him this afternoon at Theobalds. At this committee, the reasons presented to his Highness's hands, and declared that this [CJ 729] House very careful not to have them published. These approved by the general vote of both committees without any alteration. The Lords desired to annex some of theirs to our reasons. These tendered by my Lord Chamberlain. Adds a great strength to our resolution.
These read and, upon question, agreed to be added to the other.
Ordered, that no copies of these reasons shall be given out.
Sir Isaac Wake. Some letters intercepted, whereby appeared that the resolution of Rome was to have no restitution of the Palatinate and to have a present translation of the Electorate. Friar Hyacinth wrote the Cardinal that the King of Spain had given his consent for it. Hereupon, a message brought by the Duke his Grace that the committee of both Houses should attend this afternoon at Theobalds. The opinion of the committee that a message should be prepared, set down in writing and approved by this House.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY. The main thing left out: the maintenance of our own religion at home.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. That implied in the other.
[f. 33] May it please your most excellent Majesty. We are come unto you, employed from your most faithful subjects and servants, the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled. And, first, they and we do give most humble and hearty thanks unto Almighty God that, out of his gracious goodness, he has been pleased now at last to dispel that cloud and mist, which for so many years has dimmed the eyes of a great part of Christendom, in that business whereof we do now consult.
And, secondly, we acknowledge ourselves most bound unto your Majesty, that you have been pleased to require the humble advice of us, your obedient subjects, in a cause so important as this, which hereto depended between your Majesty and the King of Spain; which we jointly offer from both Houses, no one person therein dissenting or disagreeing from the rest. And that is, that upon mature consideration and weighing many particulars of sundry natures, finding so much want of sincerity in all their proceedings, we, super totam materiam, present this our humble advice unto your Majesty: that the treaties, both for the marriage and the Palatinate, may not any longer be continued with the honour of your Majesty, the safety of your people, the welfare of your children and posterity, as also the assurance of your ancient allies and confederates.
This approved by the House, upon question.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. They were informed at committee that my Lord of Southampton had made an objection that the King might, upon this message, object, there might be, upon this, a breach with Spain, and war. And therefore the King might demand what assistance we would afford. That hereupon, the Lords grew to a resolution, which set down in writing, and read: that in the pursuit of this advice, we will assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes according to our abilities, as becomes good and obedient subjects.
MR. RECORDER. To address a message presently to the Lords to tell them that, taking this into consideration, [blank] we think fit not/
[f. 33v] A message from the Lords by Serjeant [Sir John] Davies and the Attorney General: the Lords have sent to acquaint this House that they have nominated 12 Lords to attend the King this afternoon at Theobalds at 10 o'clock. And that this House would forthwith appoint a proportionable number of their House, that they meet in the Painted Chamber at 10 o'clock and that those of the committee that have any papers should presently go up, for they stay for them.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. To have the original of the Lords' reasons kept with the Clerk.
Answer to the message: this House has taken into consideration this message. Their Lordships shall receive a speedy answer by messengers of our own.
SIR GEORGE MORE. Time requires doing and not speaking. To nominate some few to go aside and set down what answer we shall return to the Lords.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. To have this question die.
Resolved. And that our committee shall/
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. To send up to the Lords the 2 other papers and say nothing of the other. [Blank]
[f. 34] 24 of our House sent to meet the Lords to go to Theobalds to the King.
Mr. Treasurer to signify to their Lordships the desire of this House to hold all good correspondence with their Lordships. To deliver to them the papers brought into this House by the committee and to let them know that this House has/
Sir Edward Cecil
[William] Lord Cavendish
Sir Robert Phelips
Sir Dudley Digges
Sir Robert Mansell
Sir Nathaniel Rich
[Algernon] Lord Percy
[James] Lord Wriothesley
Sir Benjamin Rudyard
Mr. John Coke
Sir George More
Sir John Radcliffe
Sir Miles Fleetwood
Sir Oliver Cromwell
Sir John Eliot
Sir William Herbert
Sir Henry Mildmay
[f. 34v] MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE reports from the committee for privileges, petition from Cambridgeshire. 3. [sic] concerning the validity of the election; 2. the misdemeanour of a [under-]sheriff; 3. the abuse of affidavit.
1. For the election, found it thus. On the day at Cambridge, the under-sheriff, [Edward] Ingrey, came to the place at an unseasonable time, read. 4 called on: Sir Edward Peyton, Sir Simeon Steward, Sir John Cutts, Sir [sic] Toby Palavicino. Upon the first view, the poll demanded but not proceeded in; and second view, but not performed. Demanded by both sides. Upon this the third view, being a mixed company. A mere void election, the opinion of the committee generally. Conclusion, that the election being void, a new writ to go down for an entire new election.
Secondly, the misdemeanour of the [under-]sheriff. Made a false return. Their opinion, to have him sent for. [Under-]sheriff confessed, after 11 o'clock, had made no election. Proved also that, after 12, 1 o'clock, he had committed an error and would come back again and make an election. To have the [under-]sheriff sent for.
Third point: the consideration of affidavit. 63 affidavits and certificates. The opinion of the committee, not to entertain these affidavits.
Ordered, upon question, that a new writ shall go down into Cambridgeshire for a new election.
Resolved, by the House, that the election of Sir Edward Peyton and Sir Simeon Steward is void.
Ordered, upon question, that this under-sheriff, Ingrey, shall be sent for by the Serjeant-at-Arms to attend this House.
Resolved, upon question, that all affidavits taken in Chancery or elsewhere concerning elections, returns or anything depending thereupon, shall be rejected and not used in this House.
[f. 35] MR. TREASURER acquainted the Lords that this House had taken into consideration the reasons of the Lords to be added to ours. They return thanks to this House for their desire of good correspondence, and will still maintain it upon all; and will meet presently with our committee at the Council chamber at Whitehall, and so go away to the King.
SIR FRANCIS POPHAM attended this committee since the beginning of the Parliament.
Ordered, that Sir Francis Popham's cause shall be the first cause heard at the committee of privileges.
L. 2a. An act for the ease in the obtaining of licenses of alienation and in the/
Inner Temple, tomorrow afternoon.
III. DIARY OF JOHN HAWARDE, WILTSHIRE AND SWINDON ARCHIVES, 9/34/2
Vendredies, 5 Martii 1623
1. L. Bill de reverser decree en Chancery versus le Master et Fellowes de Magdalene College in Oxford [sic] et lour lessee.
1. L. et 2. L [sic]. Bill pur naturalisinge Elizabeth et Mary Vere, files de Sir Horace Vere, nee al le Hague. Reade the 2nd time par consente et al motion de tout le Huise. Being younge, dispense with the oathes as before.
[p. 177] Sur question, null committment: sur 2nd question, sera ingrosse.
Bill pur confirmacion de Wadham College in Oxford et les possessions del cest.
1. L. Bill pur cartes et cariage et les abuses del cest. Un des bills de grace, concernant purveyors et takinge horses, cartes et cariages, by lande or water, sur le grande seale d'angliterre.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. Fait le reporte selecte committee of both Houses to attende his Majestie at Theobalds this afternoone. The reasons allowed and ratified with approbacion d'ambideux Huises. Lord Chamberlin adde un al notre reasons et adde strengthe al notre resolucions.
Le addicion: et pur further declaracion [et] jusitifaction de sinceritie [sic] in touts proccedinge:
1. Treatie pur Prince Henry disavow lour ambassador et scandall in matter de religion.
2. Treatie pur Brussels, Heidelberg taken.
3. The father Boischot came here. Letre d'Olivares.
4. His Highenes in Spaine, 2 letres de Olivares: nothing really intended appear; shifte sur wupe de divines le lady to staie.
5. Sur retorne del Prince, Bergstraat delyvered al elector de Mainz, woone par armye de Spaine.
Sur queston, adde al autres; kepte par, mes null copies deliver.
[p. 178] Sir Isaac Wake, ambassdor de Venice. Ses letre intercepte: null translation [sic] del Palatinate Friar Hyacinth, mes conferringe del electorship.
Lord de Canterbury message in escrit: come to you imployed par vous assembled in Parliament. Thanks al dieu at last expell la cloud et mist dimd les oels de grand parte de Christendome, et thankes al Roy pur advise en cause issint importe et ore offer par consent d'ambideux Huises, no one disagreeinge, treaties de mach et Palatinate be no longer entertained [with] honour, safetie del Roy, welfare del posteritie, [et] bond des allies et amies. Cest solement brief del Lord de Canterbury present al Roy, et les reasons si sont requiyre, autrement nemy. Sur question, resolve.
Objection del Roy: breach, warre, supplie, charge.
[p. 179] Sett in wrytine par Chamberlain et Southampton; lie al Huise: in pursuite of this advise, assiste his Majesty with our persons and fortune accordinge to our abilities in a parliamentary way, as good and well affected subjectes oughte to doe, nothing doubting but his Majesty will/
SIR JOHN SAVILE versus cest et LE RECORDER al idem.
SIR WILLIAM STRODE and [MR. WILLIAM] CORYTON econtre.
Message del seignours par Sir John Davies, Serjeant, et L'attornie Generall pur meetinge al 10 o'clocke in le Painted Chamber.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. Vellum vobis placere magis prodesse. Oathe pur secrecy in service del Huise. Speake to please, so as is profette.
SIR EDWARD COKE. Pur le protestacion fait in le former Parliamente proceede originallye de nous come doit tous faits, mes cest paper veigne del seignours quil est inuirie al cest Huise. 9 H. 4, in every generall pertycullars sont conteigne.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. Fait fine de cest motion. The papers sent up and nothing to be sayde to the paper of the objection.
Lord of Canterbury to delyver for both Howses, 12 del seignours and 24 de notre Huise estant d'ambideux; null reporter apponter.
[p. 180] [MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE fait report pur privilegs pur chivalier de Cambridge.
- 1. Electyon voyd, garrante pur voyd.
- 2. Misdemeanor del [souez-]viscomte; pur corrupt et insufficient retorne finable. Pius eleven clocke le [souez-]viscomte publishe n'avoit fait election et puis 4 a clocke il dit que il voet retorne al castle et perfite son election. [Edward] Ingrey le subvicomte.
- 3. Affidavits: 63 et certificats.
- 1. Dishonor al cest court de praier aide del Chancery.
- 2. Response al objection que cest court n'avoir poier d'examiner privileges et electons.
- 3. Ceux pennd par sollicitore et counsell.
- 4. Le person et viewe.
LORD [SIR EDWARD] COKE. D'opinion que affidavits voilent overthrow all causes. Affidavit touchant election ou retorne deste abrogate.
Sur question, que affidavits pur electons ou dependent sur electons sera rejecte and not hereafter to be used. Una voce.
[p. 181] Le Treasurer retorne ove le message al seignours.
Order, que Sir Francis Popham cause pur son election d'avoir primacye.
2. L. Bill pur easie obteignante de licenses d'alienacion et pledant cest en l'exchecquer.
Sur question, committe.
[Committee for grievances,] post meridiem
Sir Edward Coke in le chaire.
Pattente de Sir Ferdinando Gorges pur fishinge in novel angliterre ou norem lege [sic]. Suppressio veri et expressio falsi in le preamble del pattente. 3 Novembris 18 Jacobi le date del pattente. Gravamina greevances. Manus admoventes Deus adjurat. Ad jour deste oye par counsell.
Sir John Townshend et Mr. [William] Tipper. Order de porter eius lour inquistions.
Sir Robert Sharpeigh pur pattent de seacoale. Sent for et lour pattente.
Dungeness et Wintertonness pattentes sente for.
Captaine Bargrave pur pattente de Virginia. Sir Thomas Smythe deste oye par counsell.
IV. DIARY OF JOHN HOLLES, BL, HARL. MS 6,383
Friday, the 5th of March
The Lords' reasons for breaking the treaties:
- 1. Insincerity in all their proceedings, as disavowing their ambassador in the motion for Prince Henry and making a scornful motion of the Prince's conversion.
- 2. In the treaty of Brussels, Weston found only evasions and deceit.
- 3. Boischot, coming to continue the former treaty, there succeeded the taking of Heidelberg.
- 4. The Prince coming into Spain, de Olivares showed 2 letters, which showed they meant nothing.
- 5. All articles concluded, they found a shift by a junta of divines to hinder the Infanta's coming.
The effect of the committees' speech to the King: thanks for asking their advice; want of sincerity in the Spaniard's proceedings; the honour of the King and safety of the kingdom; assurance of confederates abroad.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY moved that the principal point was left out: religion.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS answered the committee had considered it and thought it not fit to be inserted to make it a quarrel of religion.
Southampton and Pembroke objecting, if the King should ask how he should maintain the war if he declared himself; to answer this supposed objection, they gave Sandys a paper to present to our House containing: that in the pursuit of this advice, we will assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes according to our abilities as becomes good and obedient subjects.
[MR. EDWARD] ALFORD dissented from receiving this paper into the House, saying supply of money should properly proceed from this House, not from the Lords, who would engross the thanks; and, first, they should do something for the country lest, like the last Parliament, that they gave 2 subsidies and did nothing for the ease of the subject; therefore, he would not have this proposition answered, for it would be a kind of engagement beforehand.
[f. 92v] MR. RECORDER did not think fit upon a conditional supposition to give directions. That the King cannot expect a fuller and larger answer than his proposition did require. Therefore, moved for a message to the Lords to let them know the committee had no power to answer their proposition, but the House considered of it at large and did not think fit upon a supposition to go beyond the question.
A message was brought from the Lords by the Attorney [General] and Serjeant Finch [sic]. The effect was they had appointed 12 Lords to go to the King according to his Majesty's desire to have a committee of both Houses come to him this afternoon at Theobalds to deliver their reasons for breaking the treaties. That they therefore appointed 12 to meet at 10 this morning in the Painted Chamber, and desire a proportionable number of our House to meet them there and then go together.
We gave answer the Lords should hear presently by messengers of our own.
SIR DUDLEY DIGGES wished the paper had not come, but being come thought good to answer it so it were by a fair and parliamentary way, for he would not have such a bruit carried the Spanish ambassador that such a thing should be denied.
SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. It was a dishonour to the King to make war upon promise of money; therefore, moved the paper should die.
SIR WILLIAM BEECHER. Modesty in this case like to treachery.
MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY said those gentlemen that brought this paper from the Lords without warrant from our House deserved expulsion. If the Lords had sent it by messengers of their own, then to have answered it, but now to die.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS that brought in this paper excused it, saying he and his fellow, [Sir Robert] Phelips, were appointed the reporters and it was their duty to report what the Lords said, and that the resolution of the House herein would instantly be carried to Spain, and the backwardness of the House add confidence to our enemies. We persuade to break the treaty, therefore, war is a necessary inference. He thought not fit to have the paper die nor answered as it was, but propounded a 3rd way, though in his nature against middle ways, to add unto the paper a parliamentary way.
SIR EDWARD COKE. As subsidies, aids, etc., proceed originally from this House, a subsidy is £130,000 [sic], a fifteen £30,000, which come from the body of the realm. Therefore, in the 9 of Henry the 4, it was thought a great breach of the liberty of this House that a subsidy proceeded from the Lords. It is a hard case for us if we be afraid of Jesuits' reports.
[f. 93] MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE would not have this paper go on with any qualification for the reason objected by them that wished this paper had not come in, but being come to be received, would bring this inconvenience that if one bring in anything, though never so unreasonable, yet it must be received, which will infringe the liberties of the House. Shall we christen a child before he be born? Cannot the King make war without contracting with his subjects? It would show a distrust of his subjects, who need no greater engagement than that the King make war, for the people must share with his fortune; for what need the hand or the foot tell the head they will help them, seeing it follows by course of nature.
V. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS JERVOISE, HAMPSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, 44M69/F4/20/1
Friday, 5th March
SIR EDWIN SANDYS'S report. The Lords' reasons to the King. First, in that treaty with Prince Henry after many specious [motions] of their own, the disavowing of their ambassadors and a scornful answer in point of religion, the determining to alter religion. That in preface of this advice, we will assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes as we are able, like well-affected subjects. [Blank]
[f. 49] My Lord of Canterbury's speech to his Majesty at Theobalds on Friday, the 5th of March 1623, in the name of both Houses.
[f. 83] March 5, 1623. Reasons conceived by the House of Commons to fortify their resolution and to advise his Majesty to proceed no further in the treaties of Spain.
VI. DIARY OF JOHN LOWTHER, CUMBRIA ARCHIVE CENTRE, CARLISLE, DLONS/L/2/1
[5 March 1624]
[f. 23] A private bill to reverse the decree which did overrule and on a contrary to the judgement of Spinola's case for college lease.
Bill to naturalize Sir Horace Vere's daughters born at Hague. Twice read together and engrossed all at once.
The bill for Wadham College next read.
The bill for purveyance. That takers be authorized under seal. Officers shall take up London but of inhabitants. Justices of peace within 6 months to assess the wages, custos rotularum to make dockets and send them in, and that justices may alter. That justices neglecting forfeit £10 payment after labour or work. No more carriage of horse 12 mile, oxen 8.
Report, SIR EDWIN SANDYS. That both the committees are to attend at Theobalds this afternoon. That the Prince being at committee, they gave him reasons in writing not to be copied; they were approved, and the Lords annexed reasons. Sir Edwin Sandys and the Lord Chamberlain desired to join the writing, the which they did and were that they disavowed their offers for Prince Henry, and neglected.
Sir R[ichard] Weston: that they expected the alteration of Electorate [illegible] did at Diet. That they shifted him with the junto of divines. The deliverance of Bergstraat contrary to articles. [f. 23v] That there was letters intercepted from Rome to Friar Hyacinth, King of Spain's confessor, to translate the Electorate, importing that the King of Spain had assented to it.
[Archbishop of] Canterbury sent a copy of notes divine to be inserted in the message of both Houses. That they give thanks to God that the cloud of Christendom is dispersed; thanks that he advised that all nullo contradicente advised that the treaties cannot be continued, finding want of sincerity, with the honour of the King, safety of him, and his children and his confederates. The point of religion not to be particulated to get a quarrel for that.
Southampton offers that if the King object that it is a consequence, if a breach, a war, then to advise if we will maintain it.
Then it was written down that if the King so move, that in pursuit of this advice we will assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes, as befitted good subjects, according to our abilities.
Though most seemed to assent, MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD spoke right wisely to advise not so generally to oblige ourselves as our last protestation, whereupon ensued a benevolence that good laws were requisite, people despair and we ought to proceed parliamentarily.
[f. 24] SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. That committee exceeded not. That the first most necessary. That the Lords' proposition does not engage us, that it is general, and not as the particular of subsidy.
Pursued with CHANCELLOR OF DUCHY and SIR WILLIAM BEECHER (disliked).
SIR JOHN SAVILE. That it is against the order of Parliament to advise so suddenly of matters of this import. That it is fit to enable the people before we charge them. Yet our life, liberty and religion, it is not to be doubted but we will second with means what we have proposed.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] WANDESFORD seconded him: and that there is no reason to tie ourselves to answer a question before it be proposed. That the committees exceeded their authority, and that this is not fit until good bills be passed. That Spain treated with sword; we will give the King a sword, one able to do him two ill turns for one.
[SIR HENEAGE] FINCH. A time for all. He at committee, disliked the proposition and wished it should not be answered. That there was no cause of suspicion of us that it is dishonour to the King to offer to grant his resolution by a contract.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. That to temper the paper with a parliamentary clause, and so that good laws proceeded as was expected.
[SIR EDWARD] COKE. 9 H. 4. Indemnity. That motions of charge must begin with us and it is dishonour to us to have the Lords begin, who are but for themselves.
[f. 24v] Report. Election insufficient de Cambridgeshire knights, for that the view uncertain by witnesses and poll offered, and denied, and not pursued. Et sic:
- [1.] A new writ for the election by warrant.
- 2. Under-sheriff to be sent for, returning no election made; acknowledged after his departure out of the yard and a view for the abuse in consequence to the House.
- 3. Affidavits produced and certificates, 63; not to be allowed for the dishonour of the court, the discountenance of the privileges and is proved cautelously, and not to be used in another court. And who speak untruth, him punishable as upon oath, as [Randolph] Davenport sent to the Tower, as Lords in trial of life do not answer upon oath yet as good. Yet thought oath might be given if we will howsoever questioned, which every court of record may do.
A petition without heads not to be refused.
Bill for pardon of alienations to be general without uses, and 10s. fee only. For pleading forfeit, 5s., for 1d. if offend and disabled. Second read. Committed Saturday.
[f. 25] [Afternoon, committee for] grievances
13 November 18 Jacobi, monopolie de Nova Anglia, whereby it is prohibited what other should fish there upon forfeits unlawful. It lies in the degrees of 40 and 48; recites how the patentees discovered it false, as is shown fished before import £26,000 for fish. The tenure is of East Greenwich, yet the law was to depend of policy. They to be sent there and tried, [blank] executed with proclamation, with cannons, seized goods, taken money.
Patent of Glassmakers solely is alleged to be a monopoly damned. Got by Sir Robert Mansell, and renewed the patent at a less rent, yet holds up the price.
VII. DIARY OF SIR NATHANIEL RICH, BL, ADD. MS 46,191
5th of March 1623
In the House in the morning, after the day before we had been with the Lords at a select committee.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports. First, that the King had appointed committees of both Houses to be with him this afternoon at Theobalds. He delivered the reasons of the House only to the Prince, with intimation that should be no copies. The Lords delivered likewise their reasons and appointed my Lord Chamberlain and himself to annex both reasons together. Commends the addition of the Lords' reasons, consisting of five instances to prove their insincerity. Concerning Prince Henry, after many specious motions it was followed with a disavowing of their ambassador and a scornful proposition to the King of that Prince his altering his religion.
Secondly, in the treaty of Brussels, Sir Richard W[eston] found nothing but delays and deceit. Then Heidelberg taken and Sir R[ichard] came home with a protestation.
Thirdly, Baron Boischot invited continuance of the treaty, and the electorate in the meantime given away, which was disavowed in Spain and yet their own letters show they were acquainted with it.
Fourthly, it appears by the King of Spain's letter to Olivares, that they never intended this marriage with Prince Charles for the second daughter, to which they had earnestly invited his Majesty, and that when all articles were concluded they found a new device by a junta of divines to send the Prince home without the lady.
Fifthly, the Bergstraat, contrary [to] an express article of the treaty, delivered by the Spaniard to the Archbishop of Mainz.
[f. 13v] These reason, by question, resolved to be added to ours.
Reports Sir Isaac Wake's letters which he intercepted, by which it appeared that those letters from Rome to the Cardinal at Rome that there should be no restitution of the Palatinate, that the electorate should be transferred to the Duke of Bavaria and that he would maintain it. That the confessor of the King of Spain wrote that the King of Spain had given his consent to have the Electorship transferred to the Duke of Bavaria and the country not to be restored, and that this the King of Spain will maintain. And this at the same time that the King of Spain professed his ignorance and unwillingness to the transferring of the Electorship.
Lastly, the Archbishop's speech in the name of both Houses and which was agreed on at the committee and set down in writing, and so read in the House for our allowance to it and was allowed without any alteration therewith some moved. We present our advice super totam materiam.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports what my Lord Southampton, as the committee was told, moved: that if the King should ask whether, if he should take our advice, we would it make it good with our purses, the resolution of the Lords' House in this point brought in writing. That the answer should be that in the pursuit of this advice, we will assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes according to our abilities, as becomes good and well-affected subjects.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD says that aids and supply moves from us, not from the Lords. This is to preoccupate our thanks. The committee had no power to treat. Remembers that we had small thanks for punishing [Edward] Floyd. We gave 2 subsidies and had nothing.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. In the right of a committee to excuse. We are not so punctual but that we may present a proposition arising in the committee to the consideration of this House. Until we have done something for the commonwealth, we shall not be able to express our affections. He answers to the allegation, first, of engagement, secondly, of injury to the privileges of the House. [f. 12v] For engagement, these words come short rather than go before our intentions. The consequence of our advice must be maintained by means. For point of injury, there is no such thing in these propositions.
SIR WILLIAM STRODE wishes that this paper had not come here for he an unworthy man that would not maintain this. How should the King do without their help? If the King should make a session by Easter, should not we do more freely than by any engagement?
[MR. WILLIAM] CORYTON seconds him that the paper comes somewhat untimely. We are the King's subjects. If we should give him advice and not support him, we should be no better than jugglers.
SIR JOHN SAVILE. Whether this be an engagement; he thinks it a very great engagement. We give him all that we are able. Does his Majesty make doubts that when his life, liberty and his religion lie at stake that we are not sensible of it? The safety of Ireland, the regard of the navy, these must be supplied. The King of Spain has treated with advantage with his sword in his hand. We shall make it appear that he is a most potent prince.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY. If we stagger the King in the next emergent consequence, we shall hereby delay his declaration.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] WANDESFORD. To avoid all mistakings, to promise in a parliamentary course we will support. For 2 reasons: because these proposition[s] of war and peace should move first from the King and not to be imagined by us.
MR. RECORDER. That the committee thought it an unfit proposition, but when we fight pro aris et focis, can any man hold his hand? But is it time now to speak? No. Why should we consider the King will ask such a question? [f. 11v] Advises that some message might be sent to the Lords. That the committee has presented their proposition to the House, which upon full consideration thinks that it is not fit for us as to make answer to suppositions but only to answer what is asked of us, but if we may receive his Majesty's resolution. Sorry that the King should be diffident. We take from the honour of the King to imagine that he would not resolve of this without a contract from us, when it concerns his honour or safety and the good of his children and all our friends, etc.
A message from the Lords to acquaint us that they have nominated 12 Lords to attend the King at Theobalds and desire a proportional number of this House. And pray that we may meet at 10 o'clock in the Painted Chamber to go together. And that the papers concerning this business, which are in the hands of any of our committees, may be presently sent for, they stay for them.
Answered, that we will send by messengers of our own.
SIR GEORGE MORE. Solomon says that all things are beautiful in their time, etc. No motion of supply but from this House.
MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY sorry that the paper was brought into this House. None but a Jew or Turk will deny supply, but not to disappoint the hopes of our country but to endeavour to make a session. And if the Lords had sent this paper by a messenger of their own, we would have returned answer convenient. Many burdens lie upon us at once. We know not which will be first. The fittest time will [be] when the King has declared himself. And wishes that any man may be thrust out of doors that will but intimate the liberality of this House. This paper deserves no answer because it came accidentally.
MR. CHANCELLOR [DUCHY]. All our enemies will triumph at this day's work. Shall we be afraid to say that we will be ready to help you according to our abilities?
[f. 10v] SIR D[UDLEY] DIGGES prays that we may all agree. Wishes that this paper had not been brought in but the duty of the committee to report all that passes. Wishes a good answer to the paper.
SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. God forbid that this paper should persuade the King to declare himself. The reasons are more forcible. It is a knotty business. Wishes that the committee had not meddled with this knot.
SIR WILLIAM BEECHER. Modesty in this case to be near unto treachery. This paper contains no more than any man will say in due time in general and will make good in particular. This now the fittest time. We are thought a nation valiant but blunted with a long, if not an improvident, peace.
SIR EDWARD GILES. Our hearts all good and run one way but for that we should go preparedly and not unadvisedly. Moves that the messengers to the Lords may make an excuse.
SIR THOMAS BELASYSE. Not fit to think of a war before we know what kind of war, etc.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. He could have wished that this proposition had not come into the House at this time but now that we may rid ourselves handsomely of it. The effect of the last declaration for the Palatinate drew on a large benevolence and was a general engagement. If we now refuse, strange reports will follow. Perhaps his Majesty knows that the breach of this treaty will produce a war. Propounds a third way: the subject must not be charged before he be enabled. Add to this paper that it be done in a parliamentary way. Nothing doubts of his Majesty's grace for enabling the subject to bear this charge by ease of his grievance.
[f. 9v] SIR EDWARD COKE. The glass of time run out. He will speak for the King and kingdom. The last declaration made suddenly but that moved originally from this House. But all motions in this kind general or particular but must come from this House. The subsidy of the laity comes to about £70,000, a fifteen to £30,000. And little from the Lords. 9 H. 4. He is utterly against the paper because it moves from the Lords. Therefore, to answer that the Commons in due time and a parliamentary fashion, will take this into their consideration.
MR. [JOHN] PYM. Every man's heart larger than the paper. Wishes the paper may go with the additions made by Sir Edwin Sandys.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE against the paper howsoever qualified. All that have spoken for it wish that it had not been moved. Then what is the reason: either lose the liberties of England or admit of an inconvenience.
[f. 1v] That the House of Commons have taken into consideration the proposition made by their Lordships. They are well content that their Lordships have be [sic] before them in a verbal [declaration], but they shall in convenient time, according to the common usage, be before them in a real expression of their true and hearty affections to cooperate with such his Majesty's designs as shall follow upon his resolution.
[f. 5v] Give me leave to propound my doubts and after to deliver my answer. First, he is in nature adverse [to] war; must be malum necessarium. He has great offers for the Palatinate. He would not ask advice and be so wilful as to disdain it. Has reason to see he has a just cause of war and means to achieve it. He should die with a heavy heart if he should not see his children restored, as Moses. He will live and die in this mind. Parliament: definition, to communicate advice. An unchristian thing to seek that by blood which may be done by peace. Consider how many things requisite. He has had little help in Parliament for himself. But the charge of his son's journey into Spain. For the Palatinate, in debt to the King of Denmark. The Low Countries low and not able to help, but to be helped. All Protestant princes in Germany poor, weak, disheartened. Ireland a back door fit to be secured. For his shipping in better order than ever, yet must be made stronger and that not without charge. His children have no bread but what he gives them. For defalcation, his customs his best revenue to end if war. Subsidies must take time to collect. He shows his teeth and can do no more so he/
Thanks God and us for our advice and will consider seriously of it, and wishes us to consider of the rest and the Treasurer shall truly declare debts. It is the heart opens the purse, not the purse the heart. He will deal frankly with his people. What goes to the Palatinate shall be in the charge of deputies chosen by both Houses. He means not to take a penny of his people unless. The King will not hear of a treaty without our consent. He will be so far in love with Parliaments that he shall desire them. Like the breath of God among the 70 interpreters/
VIII. ANONYMOUS DIARY, KENNETH SPENCER RESEARCH LIBRARY, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS, MS E237
4 [sic] March
After some bills read, SIR EDWIN SANDYS made a report from both Houses that the Lords had well approved of our 5 reasons, and something was added from the Lords to fortify ours, which was read and allowed of. He also showed a paper which contained the message which the Lord of Canterbury was to deliver from both the Houses to his Majesty, who had sent for the committee of both Houses to attend his Majesty at Theobalds in the afternoon.
The message was to this effect. That we had great cause to give God and his Majesty great thanks that he pleased to require our advices in so great and weighty a matter, and finding how much his Majesty had been abused by the insincerity of the King of Spain, our advice was that his Majesty should absolutely leave to treat any longer, either for the marriage or Palatinate. We, super totam materiam, present this humble advice to your Majesty, that the treaties, both for the marriage and the Palatinate, may not any longer be continued with the honour of your Majesty, the safety of your people, the welfare of your children and posterity, as also the assurance of your ancient allies and confederates.
Further, Sir Edwin Sandys showed a little paper which was written by my Lord Chamberlain and the Earl of Southampton, which was that after [f. 100] the message of our advice, his Majesty should object that this must needs produce a war, if it should, then what we would do therein. The paper was in answer to this effect. That in case a war should ensue, then we would be ready with our lives and goods to do therein as far as we were able.
This was held to be an untimely engagement to us, and [supply] ought not to proceed from the Lords but from us, which bred long debate among us. But in the end, resolved, without putting it to the question, that it should rest and be no more spoken of. And so the committee was sent away to the King.
[f. 102v] 5 March 1623
The speech of both Houses to his Majesty the 5th March 1623, delivered by my Lord of Canterbury.
[f. 103] His Majesty's speech the 8th [sic] of March 1623.
[f. 104] Reasons conceived by the House of Commons to fortify their resolution to advise his Majesty to proceed no further in the treaties with Spain, which were ready to have been delivered to his Majesty if they had been demanded when they gave their advice which was on the 5th of March 1623.
IX. DIARY OF EDWARD NICHOLAS, TNA, SP 14/166
SIR EDWIN SANDYS delivered the reasons of the Lords:
- 1. That Spain disavowed the treaty of their own ambassadors concerning a marriage with the Infanta and Prince Henry after many specious pretences with scornful proposition to our King of that Prince's alteration of his religion.
- 2. That whiles Sir Richard Weston treated at Brussels for a cessation of arms, they besieged and took Heidelberg so as he was forced to return with a protestation.
- 3. That whiles Baron Boischot was here to continue the former treaty, the Electorate was given away, whereof Don Carlos and Olivares protested ignorance to our Prince, and they said that the King of Spain would make the world see how much he resented such an affront.
- 4. And when the Prince was in Spain, the Conde Olivares showed 2 letters to express that the match was never intended until a little before his Highness's coming there and were not ashamed to avow it, and after they found a new trick upon their junta of divines to let the Prince come home without the lady.
[f. 48v] 5. That upon our Prince's coming home, when we expected the uttermost what they would do for the delivery of the Palatinate, then was the Bergstraat given away to the Bishop of Mainz, being won by the King of Spain's arms and in the possession of his servants.
It is ordered, by question, that these reasons of the Lords shall be presently annexed to the reasons of our House, and so to be presented to the King.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. That Cardinal Ludovisi, the Emperor's confessor [sic], did write to Friar Hyacinth that quo habemus votum Regis Hispaniae and that as Spain had given his vote for the disposing of the Electorate to the Duke of Bavaria, so would he maintain it with his arms. That this was delivered by Sir Isaac Wake, late ambassador in Savoy, to the Lords of the Higher House.
The message of both Houses to the King concerning their resolution and advice touching the treaties with Spain. [Blank] with the safety of his state, [blank] nor the welfare of his children and posterity.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS said that the Lords thought fit, if the King should ask what we would do [f. 49] if he should declare a war against the Spaniards, that we would say that in the pursuit of this advice we will assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes according to our abilities, as becomes dutiful subjects.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD said that this is a kind of engagement but he would not at the first motion of such a message. Matter of aid used to come originally from this House, but now it is come first from the Lords, they will have the thanks of our bounty. That he would have for that point concerning our aiding of the King, answer given to his Majesty that when we had done some good for our country by bills, we would do what should become good and loving subjects to do.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. He said that the words of assisting the King in pursuit of our advice do come short of our intentions in that business. For what is declared is but upon condition and on general words; when the particulars shall be spoken, he will stand as stoutly as any member of the House for the good of his country and give with as much respect to the welfare of this kingdom.
SIR WILLIAM STRODE would have us make good our advice to the King with the assistance of our best fortunes.
SIR JOHN SAVILE. That the promises offered by the Lords to us concerning matter of aiding his Majesty is an engagement, and though it does not speak of particulars, yet it does oblige us in all that we have to assist him. There is no man that [f. 49v] is not sensible that in this business, all our liberties, our religion and our lives are now in question. He will not be against the assisting the King according to his fortunes but desires us to be advised how we engage ourselves.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] WANDESFORD would have us tell the King that when we shall understand the King's demands concerning our assisting the King in this business, we will do what shall be fitting for good subjects to do.
MR. RECORDER FINCH. That he thinks there is no man that will not assist in the pursuit of this business to the best of his fortunes. He thinks the King will not expect that we shall in this point of assistance give answer but ad idem when we hear his Majesty's demands, and then would have us give full answer to it. That we know not whether the King will have wars or not, nor what assistance his Majesty will demand. He would have a committee sent to the Lords; that our committee had only power to treat of reasons to fortify our advice to the King, and that we desire the King, having put hereto no such question to us concerning the aiding of his Majesty in a war, we may not exceed the question nor debate of more than he has given us in charge to consult of.
Message from the Lords.
[f. 51] Continuance of collections on Friday, 50 Martii 1623
Message from the Lords signifying that to expedite and further the message to the King, they have appointed 12 of their House and desire that we will appoint as many, according to the proportion of all of this House, to accompany them to the King at ten of the clock to acquaint his Majesty with the resolution of both Houses concerning the treaties with Spain.
Our answer: that the Lords shall receive a speedy answer to their message by messengers of our own.
MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY would have any man that shall at a committee exceed his commission, put out of the House. The committee has used much diligence in the business of this House but double diligence is not good.
CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY is sorry that any should be against the offer of this House to assist the King in pursuit of our advice. He shall be glad to go out of the House, for he fears that this disagreeing will quench the zeal of this House in this great business; and Spain and Rome would rejoice to hear that we have given advice to the King to break the treaties with Spain and that we will not assist his Majesty therein.
SIR D[UDLEY] DIGGES would since the [f. 51v] question of assistance is here stirred, he would have us give answer that our House will in a due parliamentary course assist the King in the pursuit of this our advice.
SIR WILLIAM BEECHER said that we by giving such our advice, do engage us as much as if we should give an affirmative answer to the paper offered by the Lords concerning our assisting his Majesty, and he thinks then [?time] is no man's intention are other than to assist according to our ability, etc.; and we made a protestation the last Parliament to the same effect.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. That he wishes this question concerning our assistance of the King had not been delivered here, but he was commanded by this House to make report both of what our committee of both Houses at the conference spoke. That the protestation the last Parliament was as much for the assisting of the King for the recovery of the Palatinate as this paper now concerning our assistance of the King in pursuit of our advice is, and that did not engage us, neither will this. He would have us add to this paper offered by the Lords concerning our assisting the King in this business, that we will assist his Majesty in a parliamentary course, nothing doubting but that his Majesty will give way for the passing of such laws as shall enable his subjects to undergo the charge of this business and other of the like nature.
[f. 52] SIR EDWARD COKE. That it is against the honour and liberty of this House that any resolution of aid should come from the Lords, and the reason is that the bulk of subsidies and fifteens comes from the commons of the realm, and a subsidy amounts to £70,000 and a fifteen to £30,000. We know not whether the King will resolve to have any war or no, and have declined the giving our advice concerning any matter of war. He would have us give answer to the Lords that we will in a parliamentary course and its due time do what shall be fitting concerning a matter of assistance, for such a motion of assistance should first proceed from us; and if any Jesuit shall report that because of this our now refusal, which is only because of the unseasonableness of this motion and the undue moving of it, we will not assist the King in the pursuit of our advice.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE would have us give answer, if the King shall make any demand concerning our assistance in a war, that we not knowing his Majesty's intentions did not presume to take the same into our consideration.
The resolution of the House is that the committee at the conference did do but what becomes discreet men to do.
It is ordered that there shall remain in this House the original of the reasons of both Houses given to the King concerning our resolution and advice to have both treaties broken off with Spain and [f. 52v] that no copies of these reasons shall be given to any mem[bers].
It is the resolution of the House that this question concerning our assisting the King in pursuit of our advice for the breach of the treaties shall cease without further debate.
It is ordered that the paper concerning the resolution of this House and our advice for the breaking off both treaties shall be by the Lord Canterbury, as it was penned by his Grace and read here, delivered to the King.
There are 12 of the Lords and 24 of our House appointed to attend the King this day at Theobalds at the delivery of this message.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE reported from the committee for privileges and returns. That yesterday there was a question concerning the election of the knights of the shire for Cambridgeshire, and that it was agreed by the committee that the election was void because it being not discernible by the view who were chosen knights of the shire, there was not any proceeding to the poll which was the trial who had most voices. And that the [under-]shrieve should be sent for for [sic] his misbehaviour in the election. That concerning the proof of affidavits here in any business, the committee did think it unfit to entertain any because it is a derogation to this court to pray the assistance of the Chancery [f. 53] in matters determinable here, and for that the affidavits are drawn by clerks and counsel of the party and may be too much enlarged by the expressing of words of fuller signification than others of the like nature. And that most often, men do cross in their affidavits and so may be perjured.
It is, by question, ordered, first, that this election of Sir Edward Peyton and Sir Simeon Steward, knights for Cambridgeshire, is void and that a writ shall go for a new election, and they are discharged. And, secondly, that the under-sheriff, called Mr. [Edward] Ingrey, shall be sent for by the Serjeant-at-Arms of this House for his misbehaviour in that election in not going to the poll on a question of difference of the number of voices; and that all affidavits made concerning any proof of election of knights or burgesses and anything depending upon such elections here shall be rejected, but proof shall be made by witnesses viva voce openly at the committee.
MR. [HENRY] SHERFIELD. That affidavits were never used here in Parliament, and the reason why this House (though it takes no oath here) have not used to admit of oaths, is because the House uses (if a man be so impudent as in this House to affirm a falsehood) upon the proof of such false information do use to punish such false informers.
[f. 53v] MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE said that this House has in modesty forborne to minister oaths, but it was never the resolution of the House nor hopes it never shall be here determined by the House that this House cannot take an oath.
An act for the easy obtaining of licenses of alienation, and the pleading of alienations with license or the pardon of alienations without license in the Exchequer. 2. L.
This bill is committed at the motion of MR. [THOMAS] BANCROFT that the officers of the Exchequer may have counsel heard to defend the right of taking those fees which are long since granted them by patent from the King. Sir Edward Coke to take charge of this bill.
X. DIARY OF SIR WILLIAM SPRING, HOUGHTON LIBRARY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY, MS ENG. 980
Friday, the 5th of March
An act for reversing a decree made against the Masters and Fellows in [sic] of Magdalene College in Cambridge, etc.
A bill was preferred by SIR ROBERT HARLEY for the naturalizing of Elizabeth and Mary, the daughters of Sir Horatio [sic] Vere, born at The Hague in the Low Countries. The House, out of honour to Sir Hor[ace], did contrary to custom give them 2 readings instantly, and whereas the statute does require that before the second reading of a bill for naturalizing of any the parties should come in to take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, yet that it shall be omitted for these, being children.
And the bill was, by order of the whole vote, put to engrossing.
An act for confirmation of Wadham College in Oxford and for the lands and the possession of it.
An act concerning purveyance of carts, horses and carriages by land or by water for the King.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports the conference with the subcommittee of the Lords yesterday, and also declares unto the House that the Prince did signify that the King was pleased to admit some of both Houses to come to him to Theobalds to present their advice and reasons. [Blank] That the reasons conceived by our House were presented to the Prince and together an humble request that no copies of them might be given out. That the Lords' reasons which they thought good to add unto ours as a further enlargement or declaration to confirm and conform with ours (which were all allowed of), were penned by the Lord Chamberlain and by him were annexed to ours, and are specified in 5 particulars, which in effect follow.
- [p. 82] 1. First, for that after many specious motions of their part propounded for the match with Prince Henry, they denied all and disavowed the proceedings of their own ambassador, Don Alonso de [blank], and afterward proposed a scornful offer of the same match conditionally that the Prince would change his religion.
- 2. For that it appeared, by the employment of Sir Richard Weston to Brussels, that nothing was intended but delays and deceits, and that during that treaty by peremptory command from Spain, Heidelberg was taken and he was thereupon driven to protest and upon that protestation came away.
- 3. That whereas the Electorate was transferred when the Prince was in Spain, and that it was expostulated by him with some of them there, yet they denied the knowledge or allowance of it, notwithstanding that it afterward appeared to the Prince by letters shown him by Olivares, that they had both knowledge of it and had allowed it.
- 4. That they did not want to avow to the Prince himself that nothing was really intended for the match, and when yet they had given him some fair hopes after that, yet again with a trick by a junto of divines they found a way to fall off again.
- 5. For that they having at the Prince's return promised restitution of the Palatinate, yet so far were they from performance of it that presently the Bergstraat was delivered to the Bishop of Mainz.
These reasons being read in our House, were by a general vote allowed to be added to ours.
[p. 83] Then was further made known by the Lords to this committee that Sir Isaac Wake, ambassador in Savoy, did intercept some letters written from Cardinal Ludovisi, the then Pope's favourite, written to Friar Hyacinth, the Emperor's confessor, by which it was evident that there never was any intendment of the restitution of the Palatinate and that the transferring of the Electorate was with Spain's consent, for these were the words for that: habemus votum regis Hispaniae.
There was also a letter [sic] drawn by my Lord of Canterbury and now delivered to this committee to be shown to us, which was a draft of a letter thought fit by the Lords to have presented to the King together with these reasons that both Houses do send. The effect was this: that the Houses thanked the King that it pleased him now to expel the mist that had so long blinded the eyes of Christendom and for asking advice in this business, which by both Houses was resolved super totam materiam, that the treaties ought not longer to be continued in point of honour, for safety of the state and for preservation of our friends.
Some would have had religion put in and laboured much that it being the principal motive it ought not to be omitted, but answer was made that these reasons being perhaps to be published for satisfaction of the Christian world, it was not fit to publish anything that should cause it to be said that the war (if a war must follow) was in any respect for religion.
This was allowed of and was that thing for which the King afterwards gave thanks to the committee that went to him to Theobalds.
[p. 84] SIR EDWIN SANDYS further reported the Prince's care and dexterity in expediting and disposing of all these occurrences. He acquainted the House further of a motion made by the Earl of Southampton at the committee that what if the King should say to the committees that were to attend him, if I be in this advised by you, then must a war necessarily follow, and the charge thereof must be made good by you, what then should be answered to him? Upon which motion, he said the Lord had much question and at last resolved that, by way of anticipating that question, there might in the end of the declaration of the reasons that moved to this opinion this clause be inserted, as in pursuit of this advice: that we will herein assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes according to our abilities, as good and faithful subjects.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD excepts against this motion, saying that the committee has done more than they had authority to do in bringing any motion from the Lords to us, which they should have sent by messengers of their own; that it did directly infringe the liberties of the House and that it is an injury to the House to have motions of this nature first move from the Lords, which properly ought to have its original from us; that by this means our thanks is taken away by the Lords' propounding of this and not we; that as one mist goes another comes, and that this last ought not to be; and that our former engagements in this kind have got us nothing; and that it is fit something should first be done for the country and grievances reformed, and then this motion may have his proper time.
[p. 85] SIR ROBERT PHELIPS excuses the committee not to have exceeded their commission, being that they only did take the proposition and acquainted the House with it. He acknowledges that without righting the kingdom there is little hope of help, but yet speedy and necessary things must have their priority; that the engagement by these words, if they be well marked, is not dangerous; that the words were advisedly meditated on and was in effect no more than had formerly fallen into the meditation of this House upon consideration of the consequence of our advice; and that to have a motion made us and a relation of the passages that happened at a committee can be no abridgement of the liberties of the House.
SIR WILLIAM STRODE thinks that no man will be so unworthy as to call in question whether we will make good our advice or no, and moves that we may not seem to doubt that the King does conceive such jealousies of us that we shall need to give him assurance that we are ready and willing to make good our advice.
SIR JOHN SAVILE said that by this course we shall stand engaged to generalities, even to all our estates, for who shall be the judge of our abilities? Everyone knows how much it imports him to make good the advice, and when time comes we will show our readiness to assist him but not be bound unto it. There be many things first to be considered. Spain has treated with his sword in hand, our King wants one. Let us first make him one, and then there is no prince in Christendom to whom he cannot requite one good turn for another and two bad turns for one; let him not doubt us he shall have our abilities, but let us not stand bound to it, or to generals.
[p. 86] MR. [CHRISTOPHER] WANDESFORD wishes to express ourselves to the King but to be careful of the manner how. Fit to be in a parliamentary way, not generally, for these reasons: first, for that the propositions of war or peace should move from the King to us, and it has been the course, etc.
The RECORDER FINCH excused the committee that they did wish the Lords not to propound this motion as unfit, nor for the matter but for the manner and time. He holds this time not fit, for that it is beyond the King's proposition, which was not for war or any consequent of that nature. He moves that this proposition may not be put to the question but advises that some message may be sent to the Lords that the House will further advise upon this proposition and have further conference about it. He thinks that since the King desired no jealousy might be between him and his people, it were a dishonour to him to doubt that he would not be advised by us except we first did contract with him for means.
A message came from the Lords by the Attorney [General] and Serjeant [Sir John] Davies (he must be first) to signify that the Lords had appointed 12 of them to attend the King at Theobalds and desired a proportional number of ours to be sent with them, with remembrance of all correspondency. They desire also their papers.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD advises a copy of their reasons be first taken, as has been ever used.
MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY moves to give no answer to the proposition of my Lord Southampton's, because it came by no messenger of theirs and so not fit for us to take knowledge of it; and that if the committee have exceeded their authority thereby raising this difference, it were fit they were put out of the House.
[p. 87] SIR D[UDLEY] DIGGES thinks the motion some prejudice to the House, but yet assured himself without intention of ill from so honourable and well-affected a person. That there is no man yet that has opposed it but that in effect he has said more than the paper does. He moves that it may be expressed in a parliamentary course we will freely give, and entreats the House that they will judge favourably of the committee, and not to put them out for faithfully propounding to them and relating all that passed at the conference.
SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR desires that the paper might be suppressed lest it may be thought that the King did accept of our advice upon promise and contract.
SIR WILLIAM BEECHER said that modesty in some cases is little less than treachery, and that it is fit, to gain time, to give the King assurance at the first that we intend to make good our advice; that no cause of delay may hinder his proceedings for any uncertainty or doubts concerning the means, and said it is no more than they did the last Parliament and offered the King then.
SIR EDWARD GILES moves that the committee may have power to say to the King, if he does demand the question of means, that we are all intended to give freely to maintain it.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS said that it was much doubted, when it was first moved, that this proposition would not be plausible to the House and that then it was propounded by some to rest upon the protestation of the last Parliament; but he said that for his part, vellem placere sed magnis prodesse. He said the consequence of the advice is war, and the King must not be discouraged but encouraged to it; that the King will look for real advice; yet he confesses the subject must first be made able before he be charged, and then a parliamentary way may be pursued, etc. To the King and country, a man should not speak to please but to profit.
[p. 88] SIR EDWARD COKE excuses the committee, and by a voice in the House it was perceived that they allowed it. He remembers the House that the protestation moved from the House of Commons, not from the Lords as this motion did, and that it is improper and against the honour of the House to have it move from any else, for that the subsidies of the Lords is but personal and small comparatively of that we give. He showed a precedent that in 9 H. 4 it came a motion from the Lords and that the House was then offended. That before the King declares a war, it is improper to promise aid, and that the promise of means must be by a parliamentary course and not else. He excepts against the paper containing that word "according to our abilities", which implies a doubt or disabling of the land. He disallows the paper and would have the King answered that the House of Commons, in a due time and in a parliamentary course, will take care of this motion.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE opposes the paper and said the putting things upon such a strait (they being immediately to go to the King) did often hazard the privileges of the House. That to provide for war before it be propounded to us is to christen a child before it was born; and said that if the King should move such a question, it were a fair answer to say that they did not presume to advise upon the means of maintaining war until he propounded it. Let the hand do when the head commands, and let it not be doubted but it will then do it, and that it were dishonourable to be said that the King of Great Britain did first contract with his subjects before he would undertake a war.
[p. 89] It is ordered that the 2 papers sent from them be sent back and that this be not so much as spoken of, and for this a committee is sent to the Lords to go to the King this afternoon.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE reports the committee of privileges yesterday, and said that according to the allegations made concerning the election of the knights of shire for Cambridge, the question being between Sir Edward Peyton and Sir Simeon Steward, returned, and Sir John Cutts and Mr. Toby Palavicino, complainants, that the election was void and that the [under-]sheriff ought to be sent for, who notwithstanding he doubted of the election himself, yet returned them that had no lawful election.
The House approved of the opinion of the committee and appointed a warrant for a new election and for the under-sheriff's appearance, one [Edward] Ingrey.
Affidavits out of any court are not hereafter to be allowed (by order) in the House of Parliament because that they are penned by counsel and the ignorance of the party that swears to them happily concerns them not, and for that if they be privately sworn, the other party cannot have the benefit of the testimony of his part.
An act for licence of alienation. Read and it is committed.
XI. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS HOLLAND, BODL., TANNER MS 932
5 Martii 1623
First read. An act to make void a decree made in Chancery and all injunctions against the Master and Fellowes of Magdalene College.
First read and second read, put to the engrossing. An act for naturalizing of Elizabeth and Mary Vere, daughters of Sir Horace Vere, knight.
An act for confirmation of Wadham College in Oxford and the possessions thereof.
First read. An act concerning purveyance and taking of horse and carts and carriages by land or water for his Majesty's service.
[SIR EDWIN] SANDYS'S report. The first point was the reasons which was put into the Prince's hands with a desire that they may not be published by copies. The clause of deluding and abusing the King was annexed. The addition is by the Lords. The treaty of Prince Henry, it was followed by disavowing their own ambassadors and a scornful proposition for the Prince's religion.
[Secondly], at Brussels, [Sir Richard] Weston found [d]elays, the taking of Heidelberg.
Thirdly, the Electorate, Boischot came upon Bavaria and that Spain knew it and threatened.
4. Olivares showed 2 letters; until his coming that there was no such thing intended.
Lastly, for the restoring the Palatinate, the Bergstraat was delivered by the King of Spain's arms to the Bishop of Mainz contrary to the articles that no alteration should be made in those territories until the treaty was at an end. [f. 31] Cardinal [Ludovisi] wrote to a friar that the confessor of the Emperor had written to the Pope that the Palatinate should not be restored and the Electorate should be conferred upon Bavaria, and the King of Spain gave allow/
The petition. May it please your royal Majesty from [blank] to dispel the cloud and mist that so have dimed the eyes in that great business that we do now consult [blank] finding so much want of sincerity in all [blank] that the treaties may not be longer continued for honour of your Majesty, the safety/
[SIR EDWIN] SANDYS. That the Lord of Southampton offered an objection to the reasons; if the treaties were dissolved, it would be a breach and so a war. The Lord Ch[amberlain] and Southampton set down in writing these words: that if his Majesty shall demand that in the pursuit of this advice we will assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes according to our abilities, as becomes true and faithful subjects, in a parliamentary way, [f. 31v] nothing doubting but his Majesty's will/
[MR. EDWARD] ALFORD. The Lords' setting down this does entrench [blank].We showed our hearts to the Lady Elizabeth, we gave two subsidies, made a protestation and did nothing.
[SIR ROBERT] PHELIPS. That a proposition coming from the Lords may be offered to the House without [blank]. The first was engagement; next, matter of injury delivered in our resolve of advising; then, must follow our reasons and next, the means.
[SIR WILLIAM] STRODE. Wish the paper had not come here. He is unworthy that will not make good his advice. We gave 2 subsidies and trusted the King. So let a session be made by Easter and we shall be most unworthy if we should not assist him with our best means.
[SIR JOHN] SAVILE. Take it a great engagement. We say we give what we are able. Who shall judge of it? The King. Does [f. 32] any man make doubt that when our life and goods lie at stake, Ireland, the navy and the King of Bohemia/
[SIR ROBERT] HARLEY. That the paper may pass.
[MR. CHRISTOPHER] WANDESFORD. That we may promise his Majesty that in a parliamentary course, we may apply ourselves to his aid.
RECORDER did desire the Lords that it might not be propound[ed] to us for that it was unfit, for can any withhold his means when his life and all is at stake. He does not see that the King cannot look for more than his proposition, and therefore that it may not be put to the question. That may breed variety of opinion. He wishes that a message be addressed to the Lords that the committee presented their propositions to the House; they think it is not fit to enter into this by way of supposition.
Message from the Lords: [Sir John] Davies, Attorney [General]. The Lords to expedite the journey to the King have appointed 12 of their House and do desire a proportionable number to go with them at 10 of the clock, to meet in the Painted Chamber to go away, and that the committee return the papers because the Lords stay for them.
[f. 32v] The answer to the message. That the Lords shall receive an answer from messengers of our own.
[SIR GEORGE] MORE. That a committee may go up to frame an answer to the Lords.
[MR. WILLIAM] MALLORY. We gave much the last Parliament and told him we should have good laws but found none. For this matter, which came in accidentally/
[CHANCELLOR] DUCHY. That we may not spoil all with two [sic] great strictness but that we may go on in a parliamentary way.
[SIR FRANCIS] SEYMOUR. That the paper may die, and acquaint the Lords with the reason in private if they will.
[SIR WILLIAM] BEECHER would have us go on according to the paper.
[SIR EDWARD] GILES would have us proceed in our due times.
[SIR THOMAS] BELASYSE. That the paper may rest.
[SIR EDWIN] SANDYS. It was doubted that this proposition would bring matter of dispute and therefore some of them rather thought fit that it should rest upon our last protestation. [f. 33] That the resolution of this House will be carried instantly to Spain. The breach does necessarily enforce a war. His Majesty looks for an advice real. He thinks that naming a parliamentary way and that his Majesty would out of his grace/
[SIR EDWARD] COKE. If any subsidy or aid come, it ought to come from the Lower House. The subsidy of the laity comes to £70,000 and the tenth come to £30,000. 9 H. 4, the Lords propounded [blank]. He is altogether against the paper, for though it be amended, yet it comes from the Lords. He wished that a mannerly message may be sent to the Lords that in his due time in a parliamentary, way we may give answer.
[MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE. That it is not fit to give way to this paper with any qualification whatsoever.
[f. 33v] SPEAKER. The House of Commons where matter of supply originally begins, will in the due time in a parliamentary course/
[MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE. Report. 3 things: validity of the election, demeanour of the [under-]shrieve and how far affidavits shall run.
4 names called upon after reading. View taken divers times. The first view, poll demanded, not proceeded on, so that second not pursued by both parties. It was not tried out by the poll, nor but confusedly viewed likewise and therefore a new election is to be and a warrant to be sent from the Speaker.
The [under-]shrieve's misdemeanour was that he returned those not chosen; next, he did not declare [?until] after the time, and then after twelve he offered to go up again. For these causes, the committee thought fit he should be sent for.
Affidavit, that it was an indignity that the office of the Chancery should aid this House. Another reason, it is penned by counsel; put in what they will. Next, upon viva voce, the demeanour does express the truth.
[f. 34] Sir Edward Peyton['s] and [Sir Simeon] Steward['s] election is pronounced void. [Edward] Ingrey is to be sent for, by question. For the punishment of the [under-]shrieve, he is to be sent for by a serjeant. For the affidavits that are taken concerning elections and depending upon elections in any court, to be rejected.
[MR. RICHARD] DYOTT. That affidavits may not be utterly excluded but for serving of process and other circumstances.
[MR. JOHN] WHISTLER moves that affidavits may not be only utterly excluded for this but to declare that the House never did approve them.
Second read. Committed. An act for the ease of the procuring of licences of alienations and in the pleading of alienations with licence or without licences.
XII. DIARY OF JOHN PYM, NORTHAMPTONSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, FH/N/C/0050
5 Martii 1623
An act for avoiding a decree in the Chancery with orders and injunctions thereupon against Dr. [Barnaby] Gooch, Master of Magdalene College in Cambridge.
The case was this. Magdalene College was seised of a convenient garden in [blank] near London, of which, by the local statute of that house, no grant ought to be made but for 10 years. On[e] Spinola contrived a grant to be made to Queen Elizabeth and took from her letters patents to himself and his heirs. The college made an entry and had a judgement in a trial at common law, that who claimed under Spinola's title brought a writ of error. It was argued by one of the judges for the defendant. The plaintiff in the error was nonsuited and preferred a bill in Chancery. The college demurred. The demurrer [f. 18v] was overruled and Dr. [Barnaby] Gooch committed for not answering, and for default a decree passed against him pro concesso, and and [sic] injunction to obey the decree.
An act for the naturalization of [blank], daughter[s] to Sir Horace Vere, kt. This bill, as a special favour to Sir Horace Vere, was read twice together.
An act for confirmation of Wadham College in Oxford.
An act concerning purveyances and taking carts and horse[s] for his Majesty's service.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reported the agreement of the subcommittee of both Houses concerning the draft of our reasons with that which the Lords had added and which was penned by my Lord Chamberlain, and for justification of the charge of insincerity these particulars were alleged:
- 1. In the treaty of a marriage with Prince Henry, they disavowed their own ambassador and made a scornful proposition for the Prince to alter his religion.
- 2. The taking of Heidelberg during the treaty by Sir Richard Wester [sic] at Brussels.
- 3. The translation of the Electorate contrary to the agreement made by the Baron of Boischot.
- 4. Their profession not to intend the match before the Prince's journey in Spain.
- 5. The delivery of the Bergstraat to the Bishop of Mainz, contrary to an article in the treaty with Don Carlos and the Baron of Boischot.
Sir Isaac Wake informed the House of 2 letters intercepted, the one a copy, the other an original, from 2 [sic] cardinals of Rome to Friar Hyacinth, wherein was expressed a present resolution at Rome to translate the Electorate with these words, habemus votum Regis Hispaniae.
The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury was appointed to deliver the advice of both Houses to his Majesty.
1. For that purpose, he had drawn a short form in writing, which was now approved by the House, and is entered among other extracts in this Parliament, folio/
SIR EDWIN SANDYS proceeded in his report and did inform the House that they received notice from their Lordships on an objection made by the Earl of Southampton in their House. That his Majesty might happily give us this answer: that war is likely to be the consequence of this breach with Spain, and therefore he desires to know whether, if he follow our advice, we will be ready to maintain it with our purses. Thereupon, the Lords had agreed to a writing in their House, which was offered to our consideration, to this effect: if his Majesty make this demand, you shall answer [f. 19] thus, that in the pursuit of this advice we will assist his Majesty with our persons and our fortunes according to our abilities as becomes good subjects.
This proposition was opposed by divers with these reasons:
- 1. That the committee had no authority to treat of any such matter.
- 2. That all motions of supply ought to begin in the Commons House.
- 3. That the last Parliament began with subsidies contrary to former proceedings; we ought the rather to think upon doing somewhat for the country before we charge them with any new grant.
- 4. We know not that the King will make any such question, and it is not fit to give our messenger instruction to answer that which is not in his Majesty's proposition.
- 5. That it is like to breed long debate, and if it should be allowed it will not be honourable for the King that we should rather think to gain his approbation of our advice by contract than by reason.
Which were endeavoured to be satisfied thus. That the committee did not exceed their authority, for though they could not treat of any matter out of their commission, yet they might present what was offered by the Lords. The words were no engagement, rather short than exceeding our intentions, limited with our abilities and with our duties, which implied a parliamentary and legal course, containing only a general intimation of assistance, not contrary to our privilege, according to which the motion for the particular way of supply must begin here. That if we stagger in this, which is a necessary consequence of our advice, the King may stagger in his resolution. That this very debate will give courage to our enemies and be carried to Spain and Rome as arguments of our weakness and distraction.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS propounded a middle course: not wholly to admit the paper, but to add these words to the limitation, "in a parliamentary course", and in the conclusion to express our hope that the subjects might receive from his Majesty such grace and ease in their matters as would enable them to this assistance.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. It will most dishearten Spain to see our wisdom and gravity in giving every resolution due time and consideration. Shall the King be taken to be so weak as that he cannot undertake a war without contracting with his subjects, or so jealous of his people as not to believe them without a promise? No qualification, no interpretation can make this fit to be received.
This debate had been interrupted by a message from the Lords, that they had appointed 12 of their House to wait upon the King and desired that a proportionable number from us might meet at Whitehall at 10 of the clock, and to expedite the papers.
It was concluded that Sir Edwin Sandys [sic] should [f. 19v] carry this answer: an allowance of my Lord Archbishop's draft, appointment of the committee, but not to speak of the 3rd at all.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE reported the opinion of the committee [for grievances] touching the election of Cambridgeshire. The question was between Sir Edward Peyton and Sir Simeon Steward, who were returned, and Sir John Cutts and Mr. [Toby] Palavacino, who were plaintiffs. This report contained 3 points:
- 1. The state of the election.
- 2. The behaviour of the [under-]sheriff.
- 3. The proceedings of the committee concerning affidavits.
- 1. The state of the election was thus. The 4 names were called upon, the poll was demanded of both sides, but was not pursued; that in such a great mixture of people, there was no ordinary means to discern who had the greater number by reason of the inequality of standing broad or long and the invisibility of quality.
- 2. That the [under-]sheriff had made an insufficient return and it was proved by 2 witnesses that he himself had said there was no election made when he went out of the field; that there was but one witness to clear him, who was a man suspected being bound for one of his sureties.
- [3.] That in this business were offered 30 affidavits and certificates. The affidavits were all refused upon these reasons:
- 1. That it was a dishonour to this House to pray in aid of the Chancery.
- 2. That as the return of the writs into the Chancery were used as an argument against our jurisdiction, so might this in time to come be used.
- 3. It was a kind of proof full of suspicion, being penned commonly by the party and defective in not discovering all the truth, which by opportune questions in examination will be better drawn from a witness than in a voluntary deposition.
It was resolved, upon question:
- 1. That the election was void.
- 2. The under-sheriff to be sent for.
- 3. That no affidavits from henceforth should be used.
An act for ease of the subject in pleading pardons and licences of alienation.
It was alleged by MR. [THOMAS] BANCROFT that the fees which this bill would take away had belonged to Sir John Osborne's office above 300 years. If there was any increase, it was to the clerks, who were not Sir John Osborne's clerks but the King's and attorneys for the parties, and this increase was according to the labour. In some courts, the pleadings must needs be long because they were to agree with the conveyance. Wherefore, he prayed the bill might be committed and counsel heard both for the King and the officers.
Eodem die, in the committee for grievances
The complaint against the [blank] for plantation of New England was now heard but not determined. Vide postea.
[f. 20] Information was given of a new grant to Sir Robert Sharpe[igh] and others of surveying of coals with the fee of 4d. the caldron, which would amount to £3,000 per annum, with a proviso that no Oastima [sic] or stranger should pay anything. There were employed in this trade 400 sail of ships, whereof 300 were between 180 and 300 tons, and that it set on work 1,000 people. That by reason of this burden, one voyage was lost last year, which came to £15,000.
A day was appointed for the appearance of Sir Robert Sharpeigh.
Mr. [John] Wylde. That upon the patent for concealed tithes, precepts had been directed to constables, churchwardens and others, who, after long attendance, were fain to give money for their discharge. And under colour of tithes, divers lands were questioned, notwithstanding this patent was condemned last Parliament and denied by proclamation.
It was ordered that the commissioners should be sent for.
A petition was exhibited against Sir Robert Mansell's patent of the glasshouse, whereof he had a new grant since the last Parliament with an abatement by his Majesty of £1,000 per annum, and yet glasses were as dear as before. And that the customs had made a stay of importation without any warrant by the patent.
Monday was appointed for Sir Robert to be heard by his counsel.
Another petition by Captain [John] Bargrave against Sir Thomas Smythe and the Governor of Virginia.
XIII. DIARY OF SIR WALTER EARLE, BL, ADD. MS 18,597
Friday, March 5
Bill for avoiding a lease made by Magdalene College in Cambridge to the Earl of Oxford.
Bill for naturalizing of two daughters of Sir Horace Vere, Elizabeth and Mary. First read. It passed both Houses last Parliament and now first and second read and passed to engrossing.
Bill for confirmation of Wadham College in Oxford. First read.
Bill for reformation of abuses in taking carts and carriages for his Majesty's service. First read.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS'S report from the subcommittee that met with the Lords. The reasons of this House read and approved. One particular not to be omitted. Sir Isaac Wake had 2 letters intercepted, written from Cardinal Ludovisi, dated 1 June 1622, to Friar Hyacinth, a great man in the Court of Spain. The conclusion [f. 51v] a message to be delivered to the King in the name of both Houses, compiled by the Archbishop.
The resolution and advice delivered by the Archbishop of Canterbury in the behalf of both Houses to the King's Majesty at Theobalds.
[f. 52] The Lords that attended his Majesty touching the reasons that were delivered for their advice, etc.:
[f. 52v] The Lords reported that my Lord of Southampton, to expedite the treaty, offered an objection that might be made by his Majesty: the consequence like to follow on this our advice was a breach; if a breach, then a war; question what should be [blank] in case [blank]? My Lord Chamberlain and my Lord of Southampton drew a form of an answer. If his Majesty shall be pleased to ask any such question, then etc. The declaration.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD alleged that this was an engagement. First, do somewhat for our country.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. The most necessary things ought to have the priority. For matter of engagement, if the words be weighed, it is a fear without cause. If it were upon particulars, it were otherwise.
SIR JOHN SAVILE. Shall any question be made of such a thing when our religion, lives and liberties lie at stake.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] WANDESFORD. Rather fit to say that in a parliamentary course, we will do as becomes faithful subjects.
MR. RECORDER. No fit time to set this afoot.
[f. 53] A message from the Lords. The Lords have sent to acquaint this House that upon notice of his Majesty's pleasure, they have appointed 12 of their House to go to the King about the great business, etc. Desire a proportionable number of this House to go with them to meet at 10 of the clock in the Painted Chamber. They desire the papers which were sent down might be sent back with convenient speed.
Answer returned: we will send a speedy answer by messengers of our own.
CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY. No engagement. What is it to say we are ready to assist his Majesty with, etc., in a parliamentary course.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. I could have wished this question had not been raised. The Lords themselves not all of one mind. The last protestation was in 2 or 3 hours. It is not fit for us to charge the people unless we enable them.
A subsidy £70,000; a fifteenth £30,000. [f. 53v] In a former king's time, there was a proposition in the like kind came from the Lords, protested against 9 H. 4. I would not have anything in the paper discover the poverty of the kingdom. Rather, think fit to answer that the House will in due time in a parliamentary course take it into consideration.
Resolved to let this question rest.
24 chosen to go to the King with 12 of the Lords.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE'S report from the committee for privileges. The case of the knights of Cambridgeshire, 3 points:
- 1. Whether the election were due.
- 2. Whether the [under-]sheriff should be punished.
- 3. Concerning affidavits: some course to be settled whether they should be admitted or not.
For the first, upon two several views, the poll demanded, but not pursued; demanded on both sides. The multitude mixed of such as were no freeholders as well as etc. The committee adjudged it no election and void.
For the second:
- [f. 54] [1.] If no election, then the [under-]sheriff committed a misdemeanour.
- 2. The [under-]sheriff acknowledged when the hour was past, he had made no election. The opinion of the committee, the under-sheriff should be sent for.
For the third point, touching affidavits. It derogates from this House to have aid from the Chancery to take oath. Besides, affidavits are set down in conceptis verbis, so as part of the truth is many times concealed, the party being not sworn to say the whole truth.
Ordered by the House:
- 1. First [sic], the election judged as void and a new writ to go forth.
- 2. The under-sheriff, [Edward] Ingrey, to be sent for.
Ordered that henceforward, affidavits taken in Chancery concerning elections and all depending thereupon to be rejected.
Bill concerning licences of alienation. Second read. Committed.
Friday afternoon, committee of grievances
The patent for New England.
Mr. [John] Glanville. Two patents, the one granted 4 Jac. to Sir John [sic] Gates. [f. 54v] The pretence of plantation for conversion of infidels. In the [blank] year of the King, a new grant, afterwards divided into 2 grants in the 18th year of the King. The faults of this:
One clause a power to make by-laws so as they be not contrary to the laws and statutes of England, or according to the policies of England as near as may be. They have not only power to punish there but here also. Then they may send a man over there to be punished. An express clause of forfeiting ship and goods of such as should oppose the execution of this patent.
Mr. [William] Nyell. In the preamble, alleged that there was no part of this in the actual possession of any foreign prince, that the country was dis-peopled. For the first, it has been long inhabited by the French in 44 degrees. 33 degrees of Newfoundland lie within compass of this. [f. 55] The country inhabited by savages. There is in the patent a clause that no man shall visit the coasts on pain to forfeit goods and ships. This the main business. Sir Ferdinando Gorges procured a proclamation. Divers ships ready to set sail arrested, many ships forbear. One ship that went away before the proclamation and made her voyage arrested since she came home. 5 ships more arrested and 15 more in danger, if not, etc. In one port, to avoid these arrests, 7 score pounds paid before they went to sea. This the more grievous because it lights on poor men. £26,000 in bullion brought in the last year.
Mr. [John] Glanville. At the road at Plymouth, a shot made from a ship of Sir Ferdinando Gorges at a ship that went out of the harbour. Some have written thence report that they purvey for bread and victual there, and men must either afford it or their fishing must be hindered. They forbid men to cut timber. They try titles in the Admiral's Court.
The patentees appointed to be heard this [f. 55v] day sevennight.
A complaint touching the imposition laid upon Newcastle coal boats and ships.
Dungeness and Wintertonness patents.
XIV. JOURNAL OF SIR SIMONDS D'EWES, BL, HARL. MS 159
[5 March 1624]
Reasons conceived by the Lower House and delivered by Sir Edwin Sandys, knight, March 3rd, being Wednesday, 1623, before the Prince's Highness at a meeting of both Houses in the Painted Chamber, why the King of England should break off all treaty with the King of Spain, being at the same time when Sir Robert Cotton and Sir Isaac Wake made their relations foregoing, which reasons were agreed upon March the 8th [sic], being Monday [sic] (1623) following, by both Houses to fortify their resolution for advising his Majesty to break off both the treaties of the match and the Palatinate, now in hand with Philip the 4th and begun in the time of Philip the 3rd, Kings of Spain.
March 5, Friday
An act about Magdalene College in Cambridge and their claiming of the Covent Garden.
An act about naturalizing 2 of Sir Horatio [sic] Vere's daughters. It was twice read together [f. 72] and by special favour put to engrossing presently.
An act for the confirmation of Wadham College in Oxford and the possessions thereof.
An act concerning purveyors and taking of horses, carts and carriage, both by land and by water, for his Majesty's use.
The report came in the former day's conference with the Lords about the reasons which were approved, but with some addition of importance in justification of the Spaniard[s'] insincerity:
- 1. Because after their specious motion to Prince Henry, they disavowed their own ambassadors and made a scornful proposition to that Prince about the changing of his religion.
- 2. Because in the treaty of Brussels, they used delays and during the treaty took in Heidelberg, whereupon our ambassador returned with protestation.
- 3. Because that during the Baron Boischot's negotiation here to admit no innovation for 18 [sic] months, they made a translation of the Electorate upon the Duke of Bavaria, whereof Don Carlos and the Baron Boischot protested their ignorance.
- 4. Because the Count of Olivares showed 2 letters which declared that until the Prince's coming into Spain, there was nothing intended really for all their treaty, which they were not ashamed to confess.
- 5. Because at the Prince's being in Spain, when they had protested to make no innovation, the Bergstraat was delivered up to the Bishop of Mainz.
Sir Isaac Wake, by letters intercepted from the Cardinal Ludovisi to Hyacinth, the friar, found it plain that at Rome it was resolved no restitution of the Palatinate should be made, but the Electorate was immediately translated and [f. 72v] the Emperor's confessor writ it to the Pope habemus votum Regis Hispaniae, the King of Spain had given his consent unto it.
A draft of the answer to be made to the King in the name of both the Houses, composed by my Lord of Canterbury, was read and approved.
Of the Prince was said: Ante annos animumaue gerens curamaue senilem.
Some of the Lords of the Upper House had framed an objection: what if the King should say, you would have me break these treaties, what shall I then do, I am poor, unprovided or the like. They demanded what should be the answer, and conceived it in these terms: in the pursuit of this advice, we will assist your Majesty with our persons and fortunes accor[ding] to our abilities, as becomes faithful and well-affected subjects.
This was written and brought down to the Commons, who rejected it as an engagement beforehand; as an answer to a question not yet made; as a prescription proceeding from the Lords, whereas all aids and subsidies should move first from the House of Commons; and it were a dishonour to the King to contract with him; and it came out of season. It was not rejected by question, but moved that as it came accidentally, so might it die, and so it did for the present.
The election for the knights of Cambridgeshire had been examined by the committee of privileges and made void because it was not brought to the utmost trial by the poll, both sides desiring of it.
So the [under-]sheriff was sent for up, and the knights whom he had returned, viz. Sir Simeon Steward and Sir Edward Peyton, were discharged the House, and [f. 73] order for a new writ to proceed to a new election.
And upon this occasion, all affidavits concerning elections and matters thereunto belonging were, upon the question, utterly rejected as unfitting in themselves because not taken on both sides and especially because they maintained an ill argument against the House not to be a court of record, because the writs were returned into the Chancery and upon examination of them by affidavit, the House seemed to take assistance from the Chancery.
An act about alienations.
A committee of 24 sent to join with 12 of the Lords to go to Theobalds to present the joint advice of both Houses to his Majesty upon that for which they had been called together.