Proceedings in Parliament 1624: The House of Commons. Originally published by British History Online, 2015-18.
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WEDNESDAY, 10 MARCH 1624
I. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/12
[CJ 681; f. 32]
Mercurii, 100 Martii, 210 Jacobi
L. 2a. An act to enable William, Earl of Hertford, and Sir Francis Seymour, kt., his brother, to sell certain manors and lands for payment of debts and to establish others of better value in lieu thereof.
SIR JOHN ELIOT. That as informed, these lands are entailed upon the crown.
Friday, 2 of the clock, Court of Wards.
L. 2a. An act for confirming the sale of certain lands sold by Sir Edward Herne, kt., unto Bevil Moleworth, esq., and enabling the said Sir Edward Herne to make sale of other lands for payment of debts and settling of certain manors, salt marshes and other lands, upon Robert Herne and Edward Herne, sons of the said Sir Edward Herne, kt., in recompense of the same.
[f. 32v] Committed to:
Saturday, 2 of the clock, Court of Wards.
L. 2a. An act for making the estates of attainted persons liable to the payment of their just and due debts.
MR. [RALPH] WHITFIELD. That the Duchy Court's power may be reserved.
MR. SOLICITOR. That this may extend to lords of liberties.
Tomorrow, 2 o'clock, Court of Wards.
L. 2a. An act for relief of patentees, tenants and farmers of crown land and duchy land.
|Sir Edward Coke||Mr. [Humphrey] Were|
|Mr. Solicitor||Mr. [Christopher] Brooke|
|Mr. Recorder||Mr. Thomas Fanshawe|
|Mr. [Ralph] Whitfield||Sir George More|
|Sir John Walter||Attorney Wards|
Presently, in the Committee Chamber.
[f. 33] Sir Guy Palmes and Sir Peter Heyman are added to the committee for perusing the Clerk's Book; and they to peruse the Clerk's Book last Parliament for grievances, and for the grievances of 70 Jac. and make report thereof to this House.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports from the committee for trade that they desire the Merchant Adventurers may bring in all their patents and orders concerning trade. The charter to the Eastland Company much complained of, restraining bringing in of masts, cordage, etc. That this patent may be brought in.
Ordered, the Merchant Adventurers shall bring in their first and latter patents and orders, so for the Eastland Company. Tomorrow, to the committee for trade.
The Serjeant reports he had found where Sir Thomas Gerrard sometime lies, viz. at Mr. Ireland's chamber in Gray's Inn, and where his horses and men lie, viz. at the Red Lion in Holborn.
SIR ROBERT KILLIGREW. To send for the principal of Liverpool, who knew he was a recusant when they chose him.
Ordered, the Clerk of the Crown shall bring in the return of Sir Thomas Gerrard that further order may be taken.
Ordered, the Serjeant-at-Arms shall further, by the warrant of this House, search for Sir Thomas Gerrard, attach and bring him here.
Sir Thomas Hoby, Sir H[enry] Spiller and Mr. Thomas Fanshawe to examine whether Sir Thomas Gerrard be a recusant convict, or no.
The Serjeant to bring here any of Sir Thomas Gerrard's servants to be examined about their master, and his horses to be stayed.
[f. 33v] MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE reports from the committee of privileges.
- 1. For Monmouth. Mr. W[alter] Steward, a Scottish man, not naturalized, returned, but his bills for naturalization have twice passed this House. That he, in modesty, has forborne to sit here. That Levinus Munck, only a denizen, and [Sir] Horatio Palavicino in like manner sat here. But answered that never exceptions thereunto, nor the question ever stirred. The matter of great weight and therefore the committee would deliver no opinion, but leave it to the judgement of the House.
- 2. 21 petitions delivered in. He has kept the just times of their delivery in. That the committee thought fit they should be heard in order as they came in.
Resolved, no more petitions about returns already made to be now received.
Resolved, the petitions already delivered in shall hereafter be heard in order as they were delivered in except the 2 already begun.
For Mr. Steward.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. Not to admit of only denizens to serve here, for the precedents like to be tacit. But to have consideration of this gentleman because his bill has twice passed this House.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. That he not capable to serve here because only a denizen and not naturalized. If one the greater number may be returned, only denizens. For the precedents, they were never questioned or debated here.
SIR D[UDLEY] DIGGES. To do here as in Sir Francis Bacon's case: that he, being Attorney [General], should illa vice serve, but never any Attorney General after.
SIR EDWARD COKE. No alien denizated can serve in this House. He that naturalized is by act of Parliament, which makes him a natural liegeman, but the words of the denizations are tanquam ligeus. We have assent to naturalizations, none to denizations. Many under the age of 21 years sit here by connivance, but if questioned would be put out.
Resolved, Mr. Steward has dealt very worthily in forbearing to come into the House, and that he forbear to come until he be capable by being naturalized.
[f. 34] Resolved, all the members of this House doubly-returned shall make their election for which they will serve, and that those now in the House shall do it presently or else new writs to issue for both.
MR. [JOHN] PYM elects for Tavistock, but no writ to issue for Chippenham until the question about it be decided.
MR. COMPTROLLER elects to serve for Middlesex.
Mr. Attorney [General] and Mr. Serjeant [Sir George] Croke bring from the Lords a message: that they have passed some of our 7 bills and committed the rest, and return Sir Horace Vere's bill with amendment of 1 word only, "17th" for "7" [sic]. And have sent another bill for reviving and making perpetual of one act made 390 Eliz., entitled, An act for erecting of hospitals and abiding and working-houses for the poor, wherein, after the vote of the House passed, they have observed an omission by an interim of 6 years after.
The word "seventeenth" put out and made "7th", and then passed here.
SIR EDWARD COKE reports the bill for relief of patentees etc. with amendments in the title and body of the bill, which amendments twice read.
Ordered, to be engrossed.
L. 1a. An act for reviving and making perpetual of 1 act made 390 Eliz., entitled, An act for erecting of hospitals and abiding and working-places for the poor.
II. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/13
[CJ 731; f. 41v]
Mercurii, 10 Martii
L. 2. An act to enable William, Earl of Hertford, and Sir Francis Seymour, knight, to make sale of certain lands for payment of his debts.
Committed [CJ 732] to:
L. 2. An act/
[f. 42] Committed to:
Saturday, 2 o'clock, Court of Wards.
L. 2. An act for making the estates of attainted persons liable to the payment of their due and just debts.
Tomorrow, 2 o'clock, Court of Wards.
L. 2. An act for relief of patentees, tenants and farmers of crown lands and duchy lands.
|Sir Edward Coke||Mr. Thomas Fanshawe|
|Mr. Solicitor||Sir George More|
|Mr. Recorder||Attorney Wards|
|Mr. [Ralph] Whitfield|
|Mr. [Humphrey] Were|
|Sir John Walter|
|Mr. [Christopher] Brooke|
Presently, Committee Chamber.
[f. 42v] Sir Guy Palmes, Sir Peter Heyman added to the committee for examining the Clerk's Book, and they to peruse the grievances of the last Parliament and of 70 Jacobi.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports from the general committee for trade. They desire that the Merchant Adventurers may be ordered to bring in all their patents and orders made upon them and then to have some to make a breviate of those patents. The patent of the Eastland Company much complained of. To have this brought in and the orders of it.
Ordered, that these patents and orders shall be brought in to the committee for trade tomorrow.
Serjeant has sent for Sir Thomas Gerrard but cannot find him. Has found out his lodging and where his horses stand.
SIR ROBERT KILLIGREW. To send for the Mayor of Liverpool.
Ordered, that the indenture from Liverpool, wherein Sir Thomas Gerrard is returned, shall be sent for from the Clerk of the Crown to be viewed by this House.
Ordered, upon question, that a Serjeant-at-Arms shall be sent for Sir Thomas Gerrard and to have power to search any places where it is like he may be harboured. His servants also to be sent for and his horses to be stayed.
Sir Thomas Hoby, Sir Henry Spiller, Mr. Thomas Fanshawe, to search records whether Sir Thomas Gerrard be a recusant convict, or no.
[f. 43] MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE reports from the committee of privileges 2 [issues]: Monmouth and an order by the committee.
- [1.] Monmouth heard yesterday, and received this morning a petition. Mr. William [sic] Steward returned and they think his election good. The exceptions against him because a Scotchman and not naturalized. Forborne to come into the House until he had leave. The case of one Levinus Munck, a Walloon and denizen, returned and sat here and so Sir Horatio Palavicino. The committee delivered no opinion in it.
- 2. Order. 21 petitions delivered in. To have these heard in order as they came in.
Resolved, no more petitions shall be received by the committee of privileges.
Resolved, that those which are already in shall be proceeded in, in order, as the petitions were delivered.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE thinks Mr. Steward ought not to sit here, because at the time of his election he was incapable of it. He that is made a denizen is not an Englishman: that but only personal.
SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. In that Parliament when [Sir Francis] Bacon, Attorney [General], in question whether he ought to sit here, or no, overruled, he ought not; yet, in favour to him, he was suffered to sit here. And an express order that never any other Attorney after should. To do the like by this gentleman.
SIR EDWARD COKE. No alien denizated ought to sit here. Tros, Tyriusque, mihi nullo discrimine habetur. The other passed sub silentio. Some sit here that are under age and ought not to sit here, because not questioned.
Resolved, that Mr. Steward has dealt very worthily in forbearing to come and sit in this House.
[f. 44] Ordered, that those members of the House which are double-returned shall presently make their election, or else new writs to go down for both.
MR. [JOHN] PYM elects to serve for Tavistock, and no new writ to issue for Chippenham until the question be decided.
MR. COMPTROLLER. A petition yesterday against his election for Middlesex. Desires he may not make his election until the case be heard.
MR. COMPTROLLER elects to serve for Middlesex.
A message from the Lords by Attorney [General] and Serjeant [Sir George] Croke: the Lords, whereas they received hence 7 bills, have used that expedition that some of them passed and others committed. One returned back with one amendment: one word, Sir Horace Vere's bill. And have sent down one other bill of hospitals. Since it passed, observed one omission which they recommend to the care of this House.
The amendment thrice read and passed with the amendment.
SIR EDWARD COKE reports the bill of relief of patentees. Have made some alterations in it, which were twice read and ordered to be engrossed.
L. 1a. An act for reviving and making perpetual hospitals.
III. DIARY OF JOHN HAWARDE, WILTSHIRE AND SWINDON ARCHIVES, 9/34/2
Mercurii, 10 Martii 1623
2. L. Bill pur inabler William, Earle de Hertford and Sir Francis Seymour, son frere, de vendre terres pur paiment de dets.
Sur question, committe, Vendredis, court de gards.
2. L. Bill pur sale de terres par Sir Edward Herne.
Sur question, committe, Vendredis in [court de] gards.
2. L. Bill pur faire les estates de persons convicte et attaint de treson ou felonie ou autre offences serant liable al paiemente de lour detts.
Sur question, commite, tomorrow in [court de] gards.
2. L. Bill [pur] relleiffe de tenants ou pattentees al corone et duchie terres pur paimente de lour rents in cases de forfeiture ou reentrie pur non paimente en autre condicion.
Sur question, [committe].
Les grievances del darrein Parliamente et de 70 Jacobi deste veiwe et reporte del al Huise.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. Reporte del trade: Marchant Adventerers de porter eius touts long pattentes et orders sur eux.
Pattente de Eastland Company complained greevously on. Le pattente to be brought in and lour orderes approved par le Huise, et order accordante.
Pur Sir Thomas Gerrard, sur question, Serjeant-al-Armes d'avoir poier de searche for him and le Clerke del corone retorne l'indenture al Huise [p. 194] et committee d'examiner si soit person convicte de recusancy ou nemy. Ses servants en ville deste staie et auxy ses chivals.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. Reporte pur privileges: borowe de Monmouth. M. Walter Steward, nee in Scotland, fait denizen par chartre mes nemy naturalized; que fuit endevor mes nemy perfecte. Et forbere de siter. Levinus Munck et [Sir] Horatio Palavicino retorne et sitte et null exception.
Move pur orderly sittinge del committees. (Mercurii 25, Februarii.) Touts petitons pur privileges deste deliver within a fortnight of that daye and for newe retornes a fortnight after the retorne.
- 1. Norfolk
- 2. Southwark
- 3. Winchelsea
- 4. Stafford
- 5. Bletchingley
- 6. Chippenham
- 7. Dover
- 8. Arundel
- 9. Cambridge
- 10. Andover
[p. 195] Order accordante.
Pur Walter Steward, par [MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE, nest person capable de election al temps de electon, et denizen est person temps personall mes son posteritie nest capable de son denizacion, et pur les presidents quil passe sub silentio ne sont de validitie. Cest Huise nest solement court de recorde, justice et judicature mes auxy de state.
SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. In cest Huise rule pur Sir Francis Bacon esteant Attornie [General] que pur cest temps il sera receave mes ne uncore puis accordante al digne order del cest Huise.
Par LORD [EDWARD] COKE. Null alien denizen poet saier in cest Huise, [only] un naturall leige home, mes denizen fait tanquam homo ligeans. Infants demis age si complain ne sont de seier icy.
MR. [JOHN] PYM. Ore fait election, et order que touts ore in le Huise modo ferrent lour election et autres hors del Huise de faire lour election tomorrowe.
Le COMPTROLLER. Ore move pur temps pur son election in regarde que Middlesex deliver petition vers son election. Uncore sur l'importunitie del Huise il electe Middlesex.
Message del seignours par Attornye [General] et Serjeante [Sir George] Croke ove 2x billes, [p. 196] lun pur naturalisinge les files de Sir Horace Vere ove amendmente; lautre pur continuance del statute de 39 Elizabeth pur erection de hospitalls ove commendacion d'avoir consdieracon del continuance pur 20 ans.
Sur question, le primer pass pur ley.
SIR EDWARD COKE report le bill de aidant tenants del Roy, etc., ove amendments.
Sur question, ingrosse.
1. L. Bill pur les hopsitalls, le 2nd bill mise ore par les seignours, fuit ore lie, pur revivinge 39 Elizabeth pur hospitalls.
[p. 197] Post meridiem, [committee for courts of justice]
Sir Robert Phelips in le chaire.
[Robert] Grice complaine de fine prese devant commissioners pur Grice et sa feme. Del enherytance del feme staie par le Lord Hobart sur suggestion del feme, et referre al Sir Roberte Crane and Sir Robert Gardiner quix certifie le suggestions faux, et puis le Chancellor Bacon staie it ove le Cursitor et le fine deliver al Mr. Mannering. Ore resolve et order deste reporte al Huise.
Order auxy que touts petitcions serat ore retorne et lie et leigne peticion proceede.
IV. DIARY OF JOHN HOLLES, BL, HARL. MS 6,383
Wednesday, the 10th of March
A bill for relieving the subject against such as shall be attainted of treason, that such men's lands shall be liable to pay their debts if asked in the [Ex]chequer by way of petition.
An act for relieving the subject against patentees for want of payment of their rents upon lease of duchy land or crown land.
SIR GUY PALMES. There being many grievances that were complained of and condemned the last convention, and divers gentlemen now of the House that were not then, he moved to have the Journal Book of the last session reviewed.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. Report of the committee of trade. All Merchant Adventurers were willed to bring in both their old and new patents and their orders. A complaint against the Eastland Company for excluding others from bringing in deal board. These were also willed to bring in their patents and orders.
An order for the Serjeant-at-Arms to search for Sir Thomas Gerrard and attach him, and 3 of the House appointed to search the records whether he be a recusant convict, or no, and his writ of election sent for to see whose names were at it.
Mr. Walter Steward, by patent a free denizen, but not naturalized though a bill drawn for it and twice read, being returned burgess for Monmouth, the question whether he should sit in the House, or no.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE, reporter of the committee for elections, otherwise called privileges, being president of that committee, that already 20 petitions were come in for undue elections. That every man of the House may come to any committee and have free speech but no voice. That Mr. Steward was legally returned but out of modesty forbore to sit. That there were 2 precedents for it: Levinus Munck, a Walloon born, being only a free denizen, was made and returned burgess; and Sir Horatio Palavicino, an Italian born and not naturalized, sat in the House. This he said as reporter.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD said it was a dangerous precedent for all free denizens to be admitted here, therefore moved his bill for naturalization should be engrossed and pass the House, and then he might sit here.
[f. 95v] [MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE answered that the election being first faulty cannot be established by any after act. That his being a free denizen goes only to his person, not his posterity, therefore what cares he what laws he makes. The precedent of Viscount Falkland, who being English, yet because of his Irish [sic] viscounty was not admitted.
SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. Sir Francis Bacon, being Attorney General and chosen of the House, it was moved he should not sit there and ordered that no Attorney after him should sit there, but that he for this time should continue. That this gentleman's modesty had only made him questioned, there being no complaint against him but only his own doubting. That it was not such heinous thing to give way to him, for if he had sit [sic] in the House and said nothing, he had not been questioned.
SIR EDWARD COKE. None but ligius must sit in Parliament, but a free denizen is defined but tanquam ligius, and, said he, no tanquams must sit here.
It was moved that those that were double-returned should presently make their election, or new writs to go out for both their places.
The Attorney [General] and Serjeant Finch [sic] came of a message from the Lords that they had received some bills from us, which had been all committed, and one of them for naturalizing 2 of Sir Horace Vere's daughters being in one word mistaken, for where it was said she was born the 7 it should have been the 17 year of the King. This the Lords had reformed and returned the bill here to be mended.
So the word "7" the Clerk read 3 times.
An act for reviving and making perpetual an act of the 39 of Queen Elizabeth for erecting hospitals.
V. DIARY OF JOHN LOWTHER, CUMBRIA ARCHIVE CENTRE, CARLISLE, DLONS/L/2/1
Who speaks against the body of the bill not be committee exception contra.
2 private bills committed upon exception, the Earl of Hertford's and [Sir Edward] Herne's.
The bill for debts upon attainder. Second read and committed. Liberties to [be] bound thereby.
The bill [for] forfeits upon conditions to the King as his patentees, enlarged upon committee.
Sir Thomas Gerrard sent for, questioned if may not be fined.
Sir [sic] Walter Steward, Scotch, denizened by patent; questions whether to be admitted before he be naturalized. Sir Horatio Palavicino and one Munck, Levinus, yet without a question they entered; Monmouth ruled not to sit. Viscount Falkland made of Scotland, not called in to sit though English born. [Francis] Bacon, Attorney [General], admitted by order though the Attorney ought not to sit; for one time only admitted because he may make laws. His posterity not to be bound, and many may be made to carry a law, infants void.
Where no burgess is returned, to command the return less more be left out.
The bill for naturalizing [Sir] H[orace] Vere's daughters amended by the Lords. The amendment read twice and then passed by questions.
VI. DIARY OF EDWARD NICHOLAS, TNA, SP 14/166
Wednesday, 100 Martii 1623
Sir Edward Herne's bill for sale of lands is committed.
An act for making the estates of attainted persons liable to the payment of their just and due debts. 2. L.
MR. SOLICITOR would have this bill reach to private lords of manors who have like forfeitures of attainted persons.
MR. [RALPH] WHITFIELD would have the bill reach to such lands as are accounted for in the duchy.
This bill is committed.
An act for the relief of patentees, tenants and farmers of crown lands and duchy lands in cases of forfeiture for non-payment of rents or other duties. 2. L. r. p.
[f. 62] MR. [RALPH] WHITFIELD would have that this bill might reach to the County Palatine of Lancaster as well as to the Duchy of Lancaster.
This bill is committed.
SIR GUY PALMES would have a review taken of the Clerk's Journal Book to see what grievances were in hand the last Parliament and that there may be some course taken therein, and such as know of any other should acquaint the House with it.
It is ordered that the committee formerly appointed to view the Clerk's Book shall take notice of such grievances as were the last Parliament complained of and let the House know of them.
Upon SIR EDWIN SANDYS'S report from the committee of trade, it is ordered that the Merchants [sic] Adventurers shall bring into the committee of trade their first and second patents to the end they may be abbreviated, against the next sitting of that committee. That the Eastland Company shall also bring in their patents and orders.
The Serjeant of this House said he cannot find Sir Thomas Gerrard though he has made diligent search after him, neither can he learn where he now lies.
MR. [JOHN] PYM. That the town of Liverpool has committed a contempt in choosing an unfit man to serve here, for they could not be ignorant that he is a papist, and there is a contempt in Sir Thomas Gerrard in hiding of himself and not coming here according to the order of this House.
[f. 62v] MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY would not have the town sent for because Sir Thomas Gerrard is not a convicted recusant, so as the town cannot take notice of his religion, and some of his near friends think he is yet to choose his religion.
MR. [THOMAS] FANSHAWE would have us forbear sending for any of the town until we have examined the party.
It is ordered that a Serjeant-of-Arms shall by the warrant of this House make a further search in all places for Sir Thomas Gerrard, and that such of his servants as know where he is shall be presently sent for and examined here and that his horses shall be stayed. And some of this House shall search records to see if they can learn whether Sir Thomas Gerrard be a convicted recusant, or no.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE'S report from the committee of privileges. That Mr. Walter Steward, being a denizen by a patent but not naturalized by statute, was chosen and legally returned the burgess for Monmouth in comitatu but came not into the House because he knew not whether he might sit, or no. The committee did not resolve whether such a man may be admitted, or no, being chosen for Parliament. He desires to have the order of this House whether he shall hear all the questions on elections by order as he received them.
[f. 63] It is ordered that the differences of elections shall be heard in order as their petitions are first or last delivered to him that sits in the chair.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD says that concerning Mr. Steward's sitting here, he does not find that (though some who have been but denizens have sit [sic] here) the Parliament House took knowledge of their being but denizens and not naturalized. He thinks that we should do well to stay the admittance of Mr. Steward until the bill for his naturalizing be passed [by] both Houses and then to admit of him.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE says that he thinks Mr. Steward, being but a denizen, should not be admitted into the House, for if denizens may be admitted there may so many come into the House as to sway the House, and they will not care for the making of any laws but for their own times without respect to their posterity. And that the passing of a bill is not of any effect until the King has passed it and it is uncertain whether the bill shall pass, or no, though it be passed by both Houses. He would have an order made that might be for the honour of the gentleman who in this has, for his modesty, deserved well and good respect.
SIR D[UDLEY] DIGGES would have Mr. Steward admitted into the House, but with an order that never any in such case (not being naturalized but a denizen) should again be admitted.
[f. 63v] SIR EDWARD COKE says that none can sit here but a natural liegeman, and not a denizen by patent who is to enjoy the privileges of this kingdom tanquam a liegeman, and he says that the election of Mr. Steward is void.
It is ordered that Mr. Steward may not sit here, but that he has deserved good respect for his modesty in forbearing to sit in this House until it were here determined whether he should sit, or no. But it is not pressed nor ordered that a new writ shall be sent for a new election.
MR. [JOHN] DRAKE moves that all that be double-returned [illegible] may be ordered to make their election presently here in the House.
It is ordered that every member of this House that is double-returned shall make his election presently for what place he will serve, and if any that is double-chosen shall not make their present election, new writs shall go forth for new elections in both places.
MR. [JOHN] PYM, being chosen burgess for Chippenham in Wiltshire and Tavistock in county [blank], does make choice of Tavistock because the election of Chippenham is questioned, but desires that the question concerning Chippenham may be determined before a new writ goes forth.
This question is ordered to be determined before a new writ goes forth.
[f. 64] MR. COMPTROLLER does make choice to serve for the county of Middlesex, albeit his election there be questioned, being chosen also for Hull.
A new writ is ordered to go to Hull.
Message from the Lords signifying that the Lords have passed one of our bills sent by us to them, viz. that which is for the naturalizing of Elizabeth and Mary Vere, daughters of Sir Horace Vere, and that the rest of the bills which they received from us are all on commitments. And they have also sent us:
An act for the reviving and making perpetual an act made in 39 Eliz., entitled, An act for the erecting of hospitals and abiding places for the poor. This came from the Lords. r. p.
[Afternoon,] committee, Wednesday, 100 Martii 1623, for abuses in courts of justice
Sir Robert Phelips in the chair.
Concerning [John] Grimsditch's complaint against the Lord Keeper, it is alleged by Grimsditch that on certificate from [blank], the register, that there was no order entered for the taking of the supplemental proof in this cause. The Lord Keeper did suppress the said supplemental proof, notwithstanding the petitioner did petition and show the Lord Keeper the order whereon the said supplemental proof was taken.
This is not much denied by Mr. [Edward] Wrightington, who is now and was of counsel for Sir Samuel Peyton, Sir Thomas Perient, Sir John Wingfield and Sir Gilbert Houghton, who were plaintiffs in this cause.
Grimsditch alleges that he, offering a suit of debts owing to Sir Roger Aston (whose executor Grimsditch was), the Lord Keeper, [f. 64v] when he saw the note and finding therein a £100 expressed to be owing to Dr. [Theophilus] Field, the Bishop of Llandaff, the Lord Keeper said that upon his own knowledge Sir Roger Aston gave Dr. Field that £100 and thereon without further proceeding did make the decree against him.
Mr. Grimsditch's brother, examined, says he heard the Lord Keeper say that upon his own knowledge Sir Roger Aston did give Mr. [sic] Field that £100 and therefore the note was false.
Mr. Grimsditch's man, examined, testified as much as Mr. Grimsditch's brother, that is that the Lord Keeper said he knew of his own knowledge that note was false, for the £100 was given by Sir Roger Aston to Mr. [sic] Field.
The solicitor of the plaintiffs, examined, says that the Lord Keeper said he doubted the note was false because that Grimsditch did not examine one Lloyd before whom Grimsditch said that note of debts was by Sir Roger Aston a little before his death acknowledged to [be] a true note of debts owing to him.
It is, by question, resolved by this committee that the Lord Keeper did no injury nor injustice by suppressing the supplemental proof in this case of Grimsditch.
Sir John Walter says he was of counsel with Grimsditch but it being a year since that this cause was, he cannot remember the particulars that passed.
[f. 65] Sir Eubule Thelwall, being pressed by the committee, said that he must needs speak the truth and will without fear. That it is true that upon the producing of the note delivered by Grimsditch at the hearing of this cause, the Lord Keeper did say that he knew on his knowledge that that £100 expressed in the note to be owing by Mr. [sic] Field to Sir Roger Aston, was given by Sir Roger Aston to Field and not owing by Mr. [sic] Field, and therefore he will not believe the rest of the note.
It was proved plainly by a letter of Sir Roger Aston to one Smith, a hosier, that £100 was lent and not given to Field by Sir Roger Aston.
It is resolved, on question, that there shall be no report of these words of the Lord Keeper in this business to this House for that there is no sufficient proof that the Lord Keeper made the decree in this business (as was suggested) upon his Lordship's knowledge, as he said, of the falseness of the note of debts owing to Sir Roger Aston.
VII. DIARY OF SIR WILLIAM SPRING, HOUGHTON LIBRARY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY, MS ENG. 980
Wednesday, the 10th of March
An act for sale of the Earl of Hertford's lands. Second read.
SIR JOHN ELIOT excepts against it in the behalf of Sir Edward Seymour, to whom there is remainder of an estate entail, he being also the right heir at law and of the elder house.
MR. [JOHN] WIGHTWICK answers that other lands of equal value are assigned in lieu of these.
The bill is committed, and order (as is usual in private bills) that the committee do give the party interested lawful warning of it.
An act for sale of lands late Sir Edward Herne's.
SIR HENRY POOLE desires that care may be had of this and the like bills, that when men have made estates of lands entail upon consideration of marriage and the like, that afterward the party may not have power to defeat his heir of that estate provided upon good and just considerations of marriage.
It is committed.
An act to enable the lands and goods of attainted persons to be liable to the payment of their debts.
MR. SOLICITOR moves that since the King is by this act restrained, that lords of liberties may also be barred the ancient right in these cases.
An act for relief of patentees from the King in case of forfeiture for [non-]payment of rent.
SIR GUY PALMES moves that the grievances that were handled the last Parliament may be collected out of the Clerk's book and now finished.
The motion was ordered accordingly.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports the committee of trade and requests that the patent of the Merchant Adventurers and their orders may be brought in. That complaint was made that since the Eastland Company was incorporate, there have wanted such necessaries for shipping in the west parts that many ships lie useless for want of pitch, masts and cordage, etc., and that men have been compelled to pluck up their boards of their houses to mend their ships, etc.
Further order is made for search for Sir Thomas Gerrard and to bring his servant and stay his horses.
[p. 98] MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE acquaints the House that at the committee of privileges, there was debate about Sir [sic] Walter Steward (a Scot) whether he, being but a free denizen and not naturalized, might be allowed to come to the House as a burgess for Monmouth; that he had twice in the former conventions had his bills of naturalization passed both Houses. That there was 2 precedents alleged of the like nature: that Levinus Munck, a Dutchman, and [Sir] Horatio Palavicino, an Italian, had in Queen Elizabeth's time been admitted before they were naturalized.
But SIR EDWARD COKE answers it was not that they sat here as in right, or that the precedent in that case can be a leading to this, for the House took no notice of them, they were never informed of it, and to tolerate for want of information cannot make good the act. The House was not possessed with the cause, and things that pass sub silentio are not always to be followed as precedents. That none can sit here but a natural liegeman, which a denizen is not, for the words are tanquam ligius in his grant and a tanquam must not sit here. That young men under age, if questioned, may not sit.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD moves consideration how dangerous a precedent it may be if one, then 2, then more, and so in time it may entitle strangers to that House.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE says that it is a good election that makes a good return, a good return that qualifies a man to sit here, and that a person is not eligible that is not naturalized and so not lawfully returned nor aptly qualified for a member of the House. [p. 99] That persons not naturalized care not for posterity but for their times, and thence much prejudice may arise to the commonwealth by such if they may make laws. Cites the Lord of Falkland's case that being an Englishmen born yet having received honour in another realm (Scotland), yet he was not allowed to come in.
SIR DUDLEY DIGGES moves that the gentleman's modesty (which has caused him to forbear to come) may not be his prejudice, since he might have adventured as others did before, but rather that the House would please to afford him that favour that was once shown to another to whom (not being capable of a place there) there was yet in respect of his personal qualities and worth an admittance granted him by order of the House to sit there, with proviso but for that time. It was [Francis] Bacon, the Attorney General, and yet by express act the Attorney was not to be admitted the House.
But Walter Steward was not admitted.
A message was brought from the Lords that our bills carried up were most passed, the rest committed, and the bill for Sir Horace Vere's daughters only mended in a word, which is allowed by us upon reading afterward.
And a bill presented us from them concerning reviving of a branch of a statute in the 39 of Queen Elizabeth concerning hospitals.
VIII. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS HOLLAND, BODL., TANNER MS 932
Second read. Committed. An act to enable William, Earl of Hertford, and Sir Francis Seymour to sell lands for the payment of their debts.
Second read. Committed. An act for the confirmation of the sale of lands of Sir Edward Herne.
Second read. Committed, Court of Wards. An act for making of the estates of attainted persons liable to the payment of their debts.
Second read. Engrossed. An act for relief of the tenants of the King and duchies of forfeitures for not paying their rents.
[f. 40v] [SIR GUY] PALMES. That the Clerk's Journal Book may be viewed what grievances were suppressed and are start up again, by a committee.
[SIR EDWIN] SANDYS. [Report from the committee] for trade. That the Merchants [sic] Adventurers may bring in all their patents, as well old as new, and their orders. There is a great complaint of a patent granted to the Eastland Company. It is desired that may be brought in; it is for pitch, tar, deal board.
[SIR WILLIAM] BULSTRODE. That the Recorder and the magistrates of the city may prepare a view of all the recusants in the city and suburbs, to be presented to the King.
Serjeant. That Sir Thomas Gerrard could not be found, and yet his man and horses were found but/
[MR. JOHN] PYM. That the town of Liverpool may be punished for their contempt in choosing an unfit person, being a recusant, and the gentleman to be searched for and he punished, and to send to the Clerk of the Crown for the names of the certificate.
Order, that a search may be made in the records whether Gerrard be a recusant convict, that the Serjeant make a general search for his body, and that his men be examined and his horses to be stayed.
[f. 41] [MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE report[s] that a gentleman of Monmouth being elected a burgess and returned, the exception against him for not being naturalized. That the last Parliament his bill passed twice. There was offered to the committee the consideration [of] two precedents of two returned which were not free denizens: the one, Sir H[oratio] Palavicino, was fit and was returned, and one [Levinus] Munck, a Dutchman. There has been xxi petitions for elections; that from this day, no more be received and except[ed] upon new elections within a fortnight, in order.
[MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE. That Mr. Walter Steward is not to sit in this House, though he has a bill preferred, because he is not capable of his election; for those two that did sit in the House was never questioned, and therefore no notice taken of them, therefore no precedent.
[SIR DUDLEY] DIGGES. That there may be the like respect shown Mr. Steward that was shown to my Lord [Francis] Bacon, who was Attorney [General] and ought not to have sat in the House, but he was so respected that the order was that henceforth no Attorney should sit in the House.
[SIR EDWARD] COKE. No alien dezinated can sit in the House, none but a liegeman can sit in Parliament, which must be he that is naturalized and not a denizen.
Order, that everyone make choice of what place he will serve for this day and new writs to issue out for new elections.
[f. 41v] SIR JOHN SUCKLING declares himself to stand and serve for Middlesex.
A message from the Lords, Mr. Attorney [General], Serjeant [Sir George] Croke: that whereas seven bills were sent up, some of them are passed and the others committed, saving the bill of Elizabeth Vere and Mary, which was sent down with some amendment; and they have sent down one bill, entitled, An act made in the 39 of Eliz. for the erecting of hospitals, which was amended, the one word "seventeen" made "seven".
First read. An act for the erecting of hospitals and providing working-houses for the poor, to make it perpetual.
IX. DIARY OF RICHARD DYOTT, STAFFORDSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, MS D661/11/1/2
[SIR EDWARD] COKE. The universities in temporal causes do proceed according to the civil law, which is a thing against the rule of the common law, but the reason of it is because their charters are confirmed by act of Parliament as if they had been recited verbatim. And in their charters it was expressly granted that they should proceed in temporal causes according to the civil law. But this patent, without act of Parliament, could not have altered the course of the [?common] law, and for this reason their proceedings were just [illegible] [?and] [illegible] in [?the] [illegible].
Bill to make the estates of persons attainted liable to the payment of their just debts.
Moved that the jurisdiction of the duchy may be saved, and that lords of liberties may be [f. 42] within the purview of the law as well as the King.
Order, that the Merchant Adventurers shall bring in their first and second patent[s].
Order, that the Serjeant shall further search for Sir Thomas Gerrard, that the records may be searched to know whether he be a recusant convict to the intent that if he be, course may be taken with them who have their hands to his return as [illegible]. And his servants to be brought here to be examined where their master is, and his horses to be stayed.
Report by [MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE. Sir [sic] Walter Steward, denizened by letters patents [sic] but not naturalized, was returned a burgess for Monmouth. A bill for his [f. 42v] naturalization passed both Houses, yet in modesty he forbore to come into the House.
Letters of denization make him but tanquam ligius, but no tanquam may sit here.
Order, that an order to be made for the honour of this worthy gentleman. But because he was not eligible, order [?writ] to go for a new election.
[f. 43] [Levinus] Munck, a Walloon, sat here without question. Sir Horatio Palavicino, an Italian, sat here without question, being denizend not naturalized, but the reason of that was because it never came into question.
Order, that all that are doubly-elected shall make their election of place that they will serve for.
A message from the Lords by Attorney [General] and Serjeant [Sir George] Croke. Whereas the Lords have received 7 bills from here, some they have passed, the rest committed. [?2] bills have [?been] sent to us for [?2 words illegible] that [illegible] El[iz.] [?for] hospitals. They observed an omission after it had passed the vote of the House. The [illegible] between the [illegible] and the [?bill] [illegible] provide. They have sent the bill for naturalization "seventieth" [sic] for "seven". The Lords' amendment put into the bill.
X. DIARY OF JOHN PYM, NORTHAMPTONSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, FH/N/C/0050
100 Martii 1623
An act to enable the Earl of Hertford and Sir Francis Seymour to sell divers lands for the payment of debts and to assure others in lieu thereof.
An act to enable Sir Edward Herne to sell divers lands.
An act to make the lands of persons attainted liable to the payment of their just and true debts, which produced 2 motions:
- 1. That the Court of Duchy might have the same power for lands within the survey of that court as the Exchequer.
- 2. That it might stand to escheats in the case of mean lords as well as of the King.
An act for the release of patentees and tenants of the crown in cases of forfeiture for non-payment of rent.
By occasion of this bill, it was observed that the Chancellor of the Duchy and Chancellor of the County Palatine of the Duchy were distinct officers and the possessions distinct.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS made two motions from the committee of trade:
- [1.] That the Merchant Adventurers might bring in all their patents, old and new, with such orders as they had made by virtue of these patents.
- 2. That the patent of the Eastland Company might be brought in, against which there were complaints from the western parts who are debarred by them from bringing in masts, cordage, deals and other materials for shipping, whereby they are in such wants as that they are feign to rip up the planks of their houses to mend their ships.
Both which points were ordered accordingly.
The Serjeant had made divers inquiries for Sir Thomas Gerrard and could not meet with him, whereupon an order was made that his servant should be examined and his horses stayed.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE made a report from the committee of privileges containing 2 points.
- 1. The election of Sir [sic] Walter Steward for the burgess of [blank], who was a Scottish man but denizened, in maintenance of which there were 2 precedents, of Levinus [Munck], a Walloon, and [Sir Horatio] Palavicino, an Italian. Yet in modesty, he forbore to sit for all that until he knew the pleasure of the House.
- 2. That the committees complained that when they came to sit, they found the place full of others of the House and could have no room, wherefore an order was desired that those which were not of the committee might be removed to give place to the other without imputation.
The 2nd motion was granted without debate.
Concerning Sir [sic] Walter Steward were 3 propositions.
- 1. To receive him, for which were given these reasons: that it was not just his modesty should hurt him and make him in worse case than a Dutchman or an Italian; that the House was not concluded by any other law but [f. 24] precedent; and in the case of the Attorney General, though it were ordered that he ought not to be chosen, yet they suffered Sir Francis Bacon, being then Attorney [General], to sit still.
- 2. To suspend him until a bill which was in for his naturalization might be passed.
- 3. The third, that he was not eligible nor to be received. That the precedents passing sub silentio unquestioned were of no force. Denizat[ion] was a personal privilege and did not extend to posterity. He that was not naturalized himself ought not to give his consent to the naturalization of another. Those that are under age sit here, but if they be questioned they are to be removed. Neither ought he to stay in expectation. The foundation of a good election is the eligibility of the person, which failing at first cannot be made good by any qualification afterward, there being a difference between an impediment, as non-age, which time will remove, and a disability by being an alien, for the removing whereof there is no expectation without a law, which we ought not to presume shall pass, and in the meantime to leave the House without a member.
This last was the judgement of the House, but it was appointed that the order should be drawn without any imputation to the gentleman.
A message came from the Lords. That of 7 bills sent up to them they had passed 5 already, whereof 2 they now returned with some small amendments:
- 1. In the bill of naturalization of Sir Horace Vere's daughters, "7" was put for "17".
- [2.] In the bill for making perpetual an act of 39 Eliz. for erecting working-houses for the poor was this omission, "that law was made to continue 20 years". This bill did revive it without any express provision for 7 or 8 years after the expiration of that law until the beginning of this Parliament.
An act for restoring the writ of ad quod damnum.
XI. DIARY OF SIR WALTER EARLE, BL, ADD. MS 18,597
Wednesday, 10th of March
Bill concerning sale of lands of the Earl of Hertford and Sir Francis Seymour. Committed, myself a committee.
Bill for the making the estates of attainted persons liable to the payment of their debts. First [sic] read. Committed.
Bill for relief of patentees of crown lands in case of forfeiture for non-payment of rent. First committed and then passed to engrossing.
SIR GUY PALMES. The last Parliament, many grievances complained of. Motion that a view might be taken of the Journal Book that the House might be acquainted with what then was, etc.
[f. 66v] SIR NATHANIEL RICH moved that the like might be done for the Parliament 7 Jac.
MR. TREASURER OF THE HOUSEHOLD acquainted the House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not until tomorrow inform the House from the King.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS'S report from the committee of trade. It being informed that the Merchants [sic] Adventurers, who had of late much restrained trade, might bring in their patent and the book of their orders. A complaint against a new patent of the Eastland Company that engross pitch and tar, deal board, etc.
Ordered, that those patents and orders might be brought into the committee.
SIR PETER HEYMAN moved that the papers concerning trade that were in the hands of a great person the last Parliament might be brought in.
The Serjeant of the House informed that Sir Thomas Gerrard was not to be found.
Ordered, that the search should be pursued, and that the mayor of Liverpool might be sent for. But inquiry first to be made whether [f. 67] he were a recusant convict.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE'S report from the committee of privileges.
- 1. A petition there delivered concerning Mr. Walter Steward, being a Scottish man born, chosen burgess for Monmouth, and only a denizen, desiring the resolution of the House whether he should be admitted. The case of Levinus Munck and Sir Horatio Palavicino instanced.
- 2. The committee thought fit to move for an order that the petitions should be heard in order as they were presented. 21 in number.
- 3. And that at the committee of privileges, the committees should be first placed.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD of opinion that Mr. Steward should not be admitted.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE of the same opinion. A denization is only for a man's person, not for his posterity, therefore unfit to make laws. Precedents past sub silentio, not authentic.
SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. Unfit this gentleman should suffer for his modesty. A precedent, Sir Francis Bacon, being Attorney General, admitted to sit for the [f. 67v] present, but an order made for the/
SIR EDWARD COKE. No alien denizated ought to sit here. One naturalized is made a liegeman, a denization makes him but tanquam ligius. Precedents sub silentio are nothing. Youths under 21 years.
Ordered, he should not sit until he were enabled.
Upon motion that those that were doubly [-returned] in election should make their choice forthwith, if present, and the rest tomorrow, ordered accordingly, and that if they would not make choice, then new writs to go out for both.
MR. [JOHN] PYM made choice of Tavistock, yet no writ to go out for Chippenham until the title now in question were decided.
MASTER COMPTROLLER OF THE HOUSEHOLD made choice of the county of Middlesex.
A message from the Lords. They signify that of the 7 bills sent up, some were passed, the rest committed. Sir Horace Vere's bill sent down with an amendment of one word, "seventh", instead of [blank]. [f. 68] Another bill with it, bill for reviving an act 43 [sic] Eliz. concerning hospitals. Something since the passing found to be omitted, which they recommended to the consideration of this House.
This bill had his first reading.
Wednesday afternoon, the committee for examining abuses of courts of justice
A petition preferred by one [Robert] Grice complaining of wrong done him by the Lord Hobart and the Lord Chancellor Bacon, keeping back a fine levied, etc., upon suggestion that Grice's wife was drawn by force to do it.
A petition of the Lady Amy Blount concerning injustice done her by the Lord Chancellor Bacon. She lately preferred a bill in Star Chamber, a letter denied her by the Lord Keeper and a bill in Star Chamber taken off the file.
Mr. [John] Grimsditch against the Lord Keeper and the registers. His cause heard. Sir Gilbert Houghton, plaintiff. A hearing upon petition, and 40 witnesses suppressed, etc. A report of 2 Masters of the Chancery. The Lord Keeper, being judge, testified concerning £100 paid one Mr. [sic] [Theophilus] Field, took it upon him [f. 68v] it was untrue and all the rest in the paper likewise.
XII. JOURNAL OF SIR SIMONDS D'EWES, BL, HARL. MS 159
March 10, Wednesday
A private bill about the sale of some of the Earl of Hertford's lands, to enable William, Earl of Hertford, and Sir Francis Seymour to sell some that lie scattered abroad and purchase this in their stead.
A private bill of the sale of Sir Edward Herne's lands in Deeping.
An act to make the estate of attainted persons liable to their due debts. A bill of grace.
An act for the relief [sic] of patentees [blank] in case of not payment of their rent at due times. Vide March 10, etc.
A motion for the reviewing of the grievances presented the last Parliament, as also of those in 70 Jacobi.
An order entered for the Merchant Adventurers to bring in their books and patents, and so likewise for the East Country Merchants.
Sir Thomas Gerrard came not yet in as was ordered March 9.
A great debate about Mr. Walter Steward, elected and returned for Monmouth, who, being a [f. 75] denizen, offered not to come into the House until the pleasure of it be known, because he was not naturalized. There were precedents urged of one Levinus Munck, a Walloon, and Sir Horatio Palavicino, an Italian, but they passed tacite and sub silentio because they were not questioned; and so perhaps might this gentleman have done if he had not moved the scruple his own self, but coming into question he was rejected upon that ground of not being naturalized.
It was moved that as the Attorney General in a former Parliament was judged that he might not be a member of the House and yet Sir Francis Bacon, being chosen, was admitted to serve for that time, so it might be also in this particular.
But a denizen making a man only tanquam ligius as one of the King's liege people, it was determined that no tanquam might sit there.
A denizen enjoys as many personal privileges as a native, but none for posterity; and this court sits as well for posterity as themselves.
A motion for double-returned men to declare for what place they would serve.