19th March 1624

Proceedings in Parliament 1624: The House of Commons. Originally published by British History Online, , 2015-18.

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'19th March 1624', in Proceedings in Parliament 1624: The House of Commons, (, 2015-18) pp. . British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/proceedings-1624-parl/mar-19 [accessed 3 March 2024]

Long title
19th March 1624

In this section

FRIDAY, 19 MARCH 1624

I. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/13

[CJ 740; f. 66]

Veneris, 19 Martii

L. 1. An act for the sale of the manor of Rampton, [Cambridgeshire,] the inheritance of Edward Alcock.

L. 3. An act for the naturalizing of Philip Burlamachi.

Upon question, passed for a law.

L. 3. An act for naturalizing of Giles Vandeputt of London, merchant.

Upon question, passed for a law.

L. 3. An [act] concerning probate of suggestions in cases of prohibition.

DOCTOR [ARTHUR] DUCK. By this act, no limitation of witnesses. May bring it before the judge that was never acquainted with the prohibition. The remedy worse than the mischief.

Upon question, passed for a law.

SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports from the general committee for trade. The restraint of trade argued at large. Desire to have the House send warning to all the companies of London to send 4 of each company to attend at 2 o'clock, Tuesday, and to be heard why restraint shall not be enlarged.

Ordered, notice shall be given to all the merchants to send 4 of every company.

And to have them set down the present state of trade in their several companies, of increase or decrease, since the last Parliament and the reasons of this and of the decay [of] money, in writing. Ordered, also.

[f. 66v] And also to have the customers send in a note of what the exportation and importation has been for these 4 last years. Ordered, also.

And also to send to the mint master to require him to set down how much money has been coined since the last Parliament of foreign bullion imported and of our own money at home.

And that the Merchant Adventurers may send in their patent of 28 Eliz. and their great [ac]count books. Ordered also. To be brought on Tuesday next.

L. 1. An act to make the river of Thames navigable.

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD doubts not but the King's answer plainly understood, since he has explained the most doubtful parts and has professed that he is resolve[d] in conscience and honour that the treaties may be broken. Will require our advice: an addition of honour to us. Expects assistance from us. Confesses our general grant more than millions of subsidies. A fountain never dry; a particular sum but a cistern. Yet he knows that generals dwell too much in the air and thereupon has made a demand. Quitted his own particular and let it go to the public. The demand great, but desires not to have it presently levied but declared.

To fall to those particulars necessary: the securing of Ireland; strengthening our forts; setting out a fleet; assisting the Low Countries, 10,000; 40,000 to Ireland; 20 King's ships and 20 other. A great part of this spent in this. To make a round offer to his Majesty. The manner he leaves to others that have been longer conversant in Parliament. May so limit the time that no great burden to the subjects.

[f. 67] What we give now, give to our religion, lives and fortunes. To dispatch it before our recess, and not grow cold for fear, lest we leave all our hopes dead and buried in this place.

SIR JOHN ELIOT. Included in so narrow a strait, the present necessities of the one side and the future inconveniences of the other. Of evils, to choose the least. Much dejected at first of his Majesty's answer, but since being resolved by the Prince his Highness. How far these treaties have been prejudicial too apparent. Not their force has done this. Non tam potentia sua, quam negligentia nostra. The inclination and disposition of the King we all know. Our common interests all at hazard, our friends at pawn, religion at stake. To strain at once, to be made safe for once. Are we poor? Spain rich: that our Indies. Breaking with them, we shall break our necessities together. To consider speedily, for fear we suffer in our intention.

MR. TREASURER. Nothing more needless than to use arguments here to stir up our affections, for that every man plainly sees never anything more highly concerned us. Only staggered at the greatness of the demand. Not bound to impossibilities. The greater our glory, when we are thus summoned, to recollect ourselves from all jealousies.

An old saying, "a work well begun half ended". War often as much carried by reputation as by power. The report of our large contribution will much prevail with our allies abroad and [illegible] to engage them to concur with us. Now to give some competent sum to enable him to support the charge of a fleet, Ireland and the Low Countries. 3 subsidies be how far forth we will support him for time to come.

[f. 67v] SIR MILES FLEETWOOD. Treasure the sinews of a state, especially in war. Our decay of treasure exceeding plain. If his Majesty would appoint a committee of both Houses/

To contribute a cheerful and plentiful resolution this day.

SIR GEORGE MORE. In his Majesty's last answer, a deal of wisdom in seeking to be assured of the means to maintain a war before he undertake, and the care of his people. Cannot follow a better guide than his Majesty, though afar off as Peter, Christ. He desires 6 subsidies [CJ 741] and 12 fifteens. Must look to the course he takes. Before we make a promise, see how to pay. Otherwise we shall but dare verba. To consider the present occasion, what it requires, and considering this answer is as well to the Lords above and us, with whom we are happily conjoined, not unfit to have some conference with them about the present sum. In the time of the late Queen, when war with Spain, the first granted 2 subsidies; 31st year, the first precedent of 2 subsidies; after, 39th year, 3 subsidies, 6 fifteens; 43rd year, 4 subsidies and 8 fifteens. Speaks not this that we should run into the like course. To have this considered of, what the present occasion requires, and then to fall to such a proportion as may well be levied. 2 subsidies, 4 fifteens. If more occasion hereafter, we are the same body.

SIR JOHN SAVILE. To take this course:

  • 1. Consider what necessary now to do.
  • 2. What the charge?
  • 3. The means to perform it.

SIR ROBERT MANSELL. What necessary, first proposition. The design must direct the preparation, the preparation the charge, the charge the means. Dissents from the first man. Does affect to be enabled to make war against the strongest enemy. Our best way.

[f. 68] To be prepared against Spain, our course to prepare for a fleet and an army that will secure the Low Countries and ourselves. Will speak somewhat to the time past. When the treaty began, they had an intent at first to abuse. All the while a preparing when we have been negligent, and therefore must now make the more haste in being ready in time. To have an army prepared to offend Spain, if cause, and defend ourselves. We have a fleet that, with the charge of £25,000, will be of the best use that ever any fleet was to any state. This to consist of 30 sail of merchantmen and 15 of his Majesty's ships. This of itself the substance of sea preparation. These will transport 20,000 upon all occasions. To have the persons of 20,000 men in readiness, besides the trained men. Arms presently provided for them. With this preparation, will make the enemy to provide to secure himself. Between 3 or 4 hundred thousand will do this. Out of this preparation enough to secure Ireland.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. This the greatest matter he ever spoke on in Parliament. So to advise, that we do not blemish what we have already done. To pursue Sir John Savile's motion. Howsoever things fall out, the King clear. Says he will not oppress his people; will lie upon us, when all concluded. Then, to put all to the question. Punctually to proceed, and to consider how this money shall be managed. This not the work of one day. Ancient precedents, that committees have been put in trust with management of money. Then, the last of all, ready to confer with the Lords.

CHANCELLOR EXCHEQUER. His Majesty never clearer in anything than in this answer. His doubts, not to [illegible] his subjects, and leave himself free; but, as a wise king, to see how he may do it, and this with so much moderation as may be. In so great purposes, greater thoughts than to reflect too much upon our own estates. Never nearer a happy entrance than now. Opinion no less essential than supply in war affairs.

[f. 68v] The sound of 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens very fearful. To have the House pass the general question first; not for so much, but so much as the present necessity requires. Then to refer to a committee what the means. Then to consider and weigh his Majesty's gracious offers, which may make the burden seem light.

SIR JAMES PERROT. His Majesty's demands great. The sum insupportable unless moderated by the time of the levying. Will not so suddenly prescribe any course. Some questions:

  • 1. Whether this sum, if consented to, would be sufficient to manage this war?
  • 2. When resolved what to give, to tender to the King some consequences of it.
  • [3.] That all other treaties with foreign princes may be broke[n] that may be prejudicial to our religion.

SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. What our humble declaration has been, and his Majesty's acceptance, well knows. But generals satisfy no parts. Some particulars.

  • 1. His Majesty's demand. 2 particulars: [first,] his Majesty's care not to have it too heavy; second, so to give as that it may serve the turn. The demand known, and whether the people be able to give it or whether ever any such sum given, worth consideration.
  • 2. If requisite to be given, yet fit to know to what end. To have our judgements and affections go together. To level our declaration to our abilities and the action his Majesty will put us upon. Hears wars spoken on, and an army, but would be glad to hear where. The Palatinate the place intended by his Majesty. This we never thought of, nor fit for the consideration of this House, in regard of the infinite charge. To think of such a course, and resolve of those things of necessity to be resolved: the securing of ourselves, Ireland and the Low Countries. To this end, if his Majesty make this a session and pass good laws, give 2 subsidies and 2 fifteens, and to have the papists give double [?such]. First, generally rich. Live privately. Undergo no burden in the commonwealth. [f. 69] And therefore may stand with the justice of the House to force them to this.

MR. [JOHN] PYM. Have gone some degrees from our danger. Fears a relapse. To have the propositions of Chancellor Exchequer revived. Limitation of time for the ease of the subjects. First, to conclude the general question, that, if necessity shall require, we will yield to this demand.

SIR EDWARD GILES. Know what we ought to do before we do, according to Sir John Savile's motion.

SECRETARY CONWAY. Whether a war, and what we shall do with this money. The King has declared in part. To give this, to make him declare wholly. Now offered us that we have so long desired. Many fears among us, lest the King, when he has that money, may conclude upon a peace.

Last Parliament, some hope given of this, but the King sent word that he was so engaged that if the King of Spain complied with him, he could not go back. The King then persuaded the match with Spain good, and the means to recover the Palatinate. The Prince then affected the match. The councillors then carried by the judgement of the King. But not so now. King commanded to be delivered to us the proceedings of the treaty. We may guess by that what he intends. He has declared he is resolved in conscience he may break. The Prince not now so entangled.

The Lords now joined with us, that they think fit to have these treaties broken. Can we think now these things can be knit together again? These fears without cause. If we now order that we will give the King satisfaction of the 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, and then regulate the manner afterwards. No man holds the liberty of his person because such a man, but because under the protection of the laws. If then we limit the gift by our acts, why may we not safely do it, and say to the King that in conformity to his demands we will satisfy him?

[f. 69v] The things are come to such a necessity that if we will satisfy the King in this, he will declare. England bound in honour not to forsake the King's children. This must be done by conserving the Low Countries. That which we gripe at is to have the King declare. No way to do this, but to say we will do this. With such limitations as are prescribed us, 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens; and after think upon particulars, how it shall be employed.

MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY wonders to see so much importunity put on us at this time. To know what the business must be. We are here as stewards, not for themselves alone. Let it be our reputation, to be ready to give all we have, and not to give such or such a particular. To put to the question Sir John Savile's motion.

SIR GEORGE CHUDLEIGH. Will save a labour of the first question. Improper for us to enter into all the stratagems of a war. Unfit for this place. Second question, if we do advance a good sum for the present, as much as he thinks the King expects; a fit sum between 2 or 3 hundred thousand. The way somewhat a new way. Although [CJ 742] under the name of subsidy, yet not to descend to the lowest sort of subsidy men. No man under £5 lands to be in. The poor subjects, for want of trade, with often subsidies and benevolences. Half a subsidy below that. To go to a good round sum upon the rest, above £5 land. 5 subsidies. A committee to draw a bill for the spending of this money.

SIR ROBERT HARLEY. The work of this day in the nearest end. That the King would crown our advice with a declaration. King will do this if we do not still insist on generals. The King's demand: 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens. We know how to have a declaration.

To give now, this session, enough to serve the present occasion and not to leave ourselves disengaged for a further supply. [f. 70] To make an order here that these 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens shall be granted for this war and, when declared, make an act that 3 subsidies and 6 fifteens shall be presently levied. This may be committed to committees. Then take an account of the committee, what done and what more to be done at our next meeting.

SIR ARTHUR INGRAM. No man has spoken, but declared willing to give. The point, the proportion. To lay a good ground. All engaged: king and subject. Cannot go a safer way than to consider what to be done; then, what will do it; and lastly, the means. This to a committee of the whole House.

SIR GEORGE CHAWORTH. The King did particularize 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, and for that should have a breach of both treaties, which he thinks both at an end. For the match, that a thing impossible, as much as if 2 armies already in the field. For the other, without that, leaves to our consideration. A 3rd treaty, but that no part of our advice to the King. Touching the present proposition of supply, will go another way than any man yet has. If a war ensue, will not be tomorrow. Yet not against a present relief. First proposition may be done, and yet without these demands. If we determine to give a good sum of money, and tie to it laws, will give the King good satisfaction, and the people too. The King may dispose [of] this as please him. For the Low Countries, thinks they are not in any present danger. Not any one town yet taken. One town, Ostend, cost the lives of 150,000 men. Ease the subject of grievances, and at Michaelmas better able to give three subsidies than now one. To make a session with all speed, and to publish it now, that we will give 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens and tie to it good laws.

MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. The last speech savoured so much of diversion that he hopes no man will agree with it. Grievances at home may take some small drops out of our purses, but no drops of blood out of our hearts. [f. 70v] Must be a breach of amity with Spain, that must procure our safety.

18 Edw. 3 the King advised with the Parliament. The whole people, Lords and Commons, persuaded the King to make himself as strong as he could to go himself beyond the seas. And then the money given was put into hands of men designed by Parliament, and then they instantly beseeched him not to be diverted by any letters or fair promises whatsoever. Before we pass an act, we may see in general that there shall be some enterprise to make use of that we give. To maintain this war, will be content to eat with a wooden spoon, as the Christians in former times sold their vasa sacra. To offer some 2 or 3 subsidies and some fifteens; with this, that we will be ready hereafter timely enough to supply his Majesty.

SIR HENRY MILDMAY. He a very unhappy man that after a business has been so well debated shall come in with new propositions. Confident that if we hurt not ourselves with our own fears, shall be safe. 1. The quantity of the King's demand. For that, what we give now, not to the King but the kingdom. The name of so many subsidies enough to affright anybody that know[s] the wants of the poor people. For the precedent, notwithstanding his dependency, will give his voice against any ill precedent. Now to consider what may serve for the present maintenance of a war. If half so much as the King demands will serve, his voice shall go with that. To have a committee of the House, afternoon, and the Speaker to be here ready.

SIR JOHN WALTER. Occasions 2:

  • 1. To recover the Palatinate.
  • 2. To withstand the ambition of the King of Spain.

Not now fit to debate where the war shall be. That fit for a Council of War. The thing now is to determine what to give. 4 subsidies. Reasons for this:

  • 1. To encourage the persons that shall be employed.
  • 2. To make good our offer to the King.
  • 3. That those foreign ambassadors may have occasion to signify to their masters how ready we are to withstand them.

[f. 71] In a cause of this nature, would rather lessen his diet, apparel, lessen his children's portion, and drink in wood and earth. Many miseries fallen on us since we have neglected the true religion established among us. Moved to this out of his zeal to true religion. Not to respect our own greatness or plenty, but this cause of so great importance.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. Will propose a consideration to precede all these. We have gone to the King, and treated generally, as Spain did with them. The King has told us that general terms will not carry it: "if this may be done, then I will follow your advice; but if this may not be done, then not." Must be an extraordinary overture that must draw the King from peace. If this give the King occasion not to declare, where are we then? Our choice like David; better to fall into the arms of England than Spain. We bestow what we do upon ourselves. Not to be too nice when the King presses upon particulars. 7 Edw. 6 1 subsidy. Queen Mary['s] time, that released. That a good precedent for us. King, he hopes, will be led as well by good examples of grace as otherwise. 31 Eliz. 2 subsidies and 2 fifteens, and so 43 [Eliz.] grew to 4. The occasions of these: 39 [Eliz.], an invincible navy upon the coast. Now, although these dangers not so eminent, yet now to begin upon a new score. Last time made a Parliament for subsidies, and no laws. To have now a Parliament of laws and subsidies, and another of laws without subsidies, and then quit.

Now to pass an act for 4, with double fifteens, or else 3. But why not presently pass, upon the question, so much as necessary, and the rest afterwards? [Blank]

[f. 71v] SIR THOMAS BELASYSE. Subsidies come not in so easily as fees. The 2 that spoke before him did soar too high a pitch. Thinks 2 subsidies sufficient for the present.

SIR HENRY ANDERSON. Dangerous to return into the country and tell them of subsidies; dangerous again not to give. Necessary to shut the back door, and make up our wooden walls, and to assist our best friends. To put to the question whether, if his Majesty will declare, that we will not satisfy him in his demands. For the manner, many things to be considered of.

SIR HENRY VANE seconds Mr. [John] Glanville's motion. That will bring us all to that issue we expect. Can be no precedent to our disadvantage. Would not have it go abroad to foreign ambassadors, the poverty of the country. If we not well behave ourselves this day, may fear Parliaments will not be so frequent. Will distaste also him that is to succeed. To have those that are the King's allies/

That 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens may pass by a question, and an order only, and then that which is necessary to pass by an act to be gathered in before Michaelmas. This cannot give the King power to levy it unless passed by act of Parliament. Make it conditional that if the war cease, the money not to be levied. By this means the King's honour will be saved, and we shall gain what we desire.

SIR BAPTIST HICKS agrees with the uttermost. Some occasion heretofore to give credit to his Majesty, and has been satisfied. Therefore, doubts not the King. God be thanked, though all we have be at the stake, yet not at that stake our enemies would have us. If 6, 5 will not, 2, 1 cannot; 4, 3 bears all away.

[CJ 743; f. 72] MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. Cannot yield now to go to a question. No man has disagreed from giving. The question propounded impossible. Last Parliament would give no fifteens because fell upon poor men. When they then could not give 2, shall they now give 12? Hen. 8 great dealing to engage men for a war.

To enter an order, never heard of the like. Would at this present think of some things propounded before we grow to any conclusion. To defer it until afternoon.

SIR EDWARD COKE. Demosthenes's orations best when longest, but not so with his speeches. He must know the work that would know the value. This which we shall give is to this end.

In Parliament, not only subsidies but other means. Will not have his subjects burdened, nor yet himself delayed. In former records. He is pleased to have a session now, then at Michaelmas and at spring. Divides it into 3 parts. 5 things the work of these subsidies:

  • 1. The securing of Ireland.
  • 2. The defence of our own coasts.
  • 3. Preparation of our navy.
  • 4. To join with the Low Countries and assist them.
  • 5. The recovery of the Palatinate.

These things the work. To specify our gift to be for these.

  • 2. Consider the support. A subsidy of the laity and [sic], 70 thousand pound[s]; a fifteen, 30,000 pound[s]; a subsidy of the clergy, £20,000. All England not so much as to give 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens. Come to £900,000, almost a million.
  • 1. Question, whether it may be done?
  • 2. Whether with conveniency?

42 Edw. 3 the King treated with the Commons about peace. They made several answers. [f. 72v] Could not assent to any peace, for many reasons they then gave. 6 Hen. 7 King advised with Lords and Commons of a war with France. They allowed it, but desired the poorer sort of the realm might be spared. 4 Hen. 8 he consulted again with his people, and they advised him to war. To set down anything verbally in the book against all precedent. Those nominative subsidies. Divide this sum into 3 parts: £300,000 for the present, all in subsidy, but no fifteens. To lay it upon the richer sort. So many subsidies, as shall amount to £300,000. That may make a great sound. The recusants in England have lived safely, securely, freed from all office. To have them give double as much as we give. Recusants convict[ed] or such as have not gone to church within 6 months, and those about London that go to the Spanish ambassador's to mass, to have them give double subsidy. By this means, we shall get enough to serve for the present. If occasion shall serve afterwards, as ready then to satisfy the King's demand as now.

SIR EDWARD WARDOUR. To enter into consideration what to be done before the King give us leave to do it preposterous. To give 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens if the business require it. This no greater engagement than before. The subsidies that have been heretofore not all at a time, but by yearly collections. To pass, by the vote of the House, that we will assist the King, in the pursuit of our advice, with 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens.

MR. SOLICITOR. Whether to sit in the afternoon or go on now. The vote of the House to go on now. Glad to see so much devotion in so great a business.

[f. 73] We differ only in our way. One question now, how to give the King satisfaction in his last demand. Our advice to dissolve the treaties. This draws on a second. If we advise him to this, we engage the King and ourselves. Better to have a war than a dangerous peace. "If a war follow", says he, "shall I engage before I know how to continue it?". The King does not doubt us but to see his way through his business. He has made it appear he is not able. He has applied himself to us. If this require[s] a great sum of money, shall we not do it? Nay, we must. Our quantum must be tantum as the business requires. The King propounds not these particulars positively, nor the time. King has given us a way without offence. We engage not ourselves unless the King be first engaged. The business not his alone. Everyone a part in this business. All passengers in this ship. This being so, shall we now dispute the poverty of the kingdom? We must do what we can do. The manner of the proportion of it. A great sum. Would not have the noise of it go down to the country at once. This much money not to go out of the kingdom, but changing the hand. Not to all at once and yet to make such a declaration as shall satisfy the King. Not tied to this way. The King desires but what may be equivalent. Not give the honour to the recusants to give double subsidy. To wring better blood out of them than [illegible]. Near about £300,000 will be a good proportion for the present. But our subsidies grow lower every day than other. To have a care that there be no deductions out of this, being we have treasurers of our own. To leave out fifteens wholly, dangerous. To forget them. To declare ourselves now to give 3 subsidies and 3 fifteens to be thus levied. 2 subsidies, with 2 fifteens. 14 Eliz. so/

[f. 73v] This may go hard with the poorer sort. Nothing with the richer. Let it go in the ordinary form. This may be with no great difficulty. To be gathered together of necessity for present occasions. About May, to have a gathering in of these 2, and the third about Michaelmas. To have somewhat in bank for the residue. To give the King assurance. To be suitors to him, to come again at Michaelmas, and that we will be then as ready to supply his wants as now.

SIR CHRISTOPHER HILDYARD. To give 2 subsidies and 2 fifteens. In [15]88 [sic], Sir Walter Mildmay made known to this House the Queen's wants. Desired then but 2 subsidies and 2 fifteens. The wants then as great as now.

SIR ROBERT KILLIGREW. 2 ways considerable: 1. to give money first; and then, 2. to know the work first, and then give. Know the charge of an army and all other particulars.

SIR THOMAS LUCY. To retire now, and the Speaker to be here after dinner. The House has ever done well, when they have not run into precipitation.

SIR THOMAS JERMYN. Glad to see the general sense and genius of this House go the advancement of this work. An objection concerning the poverty of the people. Far against the desire of the King to see any money in his coffers that should be gathered with the tears of his subjects.

To have this, a civil fast, and determine somewhat here before we rise. Desires to see the Spanish ambassadors out of town and kingdom. King of France set up a candle, and bade the pope's nuncio be gone before that was burnt out. If the King had once declared the [f. 74] Spanish ambassadors nothing to do here but truss up their gods and be gone. Besides a mystery of iniquity among ourselves. To retard nothing that hinder[s] the King's declaration.

MR. [WILLIAM] RAVENSCROFT. Never knew any subsidy granted but a committee before to debate. To have a committee this afternoon.

SIR CHARLES MORRISON. So the last Parliament. The country will say, "we and our money soon parted." To meet again in the afternoon, and here have it debated what to give.

SIR HENRY POOLE. This not yet ready for a question. Will add a great help to have a committee. Divers things to think of. May be occasion to pray in aid of recusants and great rich men that abound in wealth, and to pray in aid of Scotland.

SIR JOHN SAVILE. To one point. Some cry to a question of a definitive sum. One of the [most] dangerous and unseasonable motions he ever heard. More danger to ask too little than too much. Therefore, to be well examined. To have time to advise until tomorrow morning.

SIR DUDLEY DIGGES of the same opinion. To put any sum to question very preposterous. King desirous to know whether he may be confident of us if he shall declare. Some, peradventure, may possess the King that this kingdom not able to defend itself. Thinks this may be pressed to our inconvenience. If his Majesty may be satisfied by any other means, as well. If the King may know our resolution to back our advice, and that we [CJ 744] do not stick upon the sum if necessary, then thinks he will be satisfied.

MR. [JOHN] SELDEN. In a matter of this great moment, to determine nothing until there has been a debate at a committee.

[f. 74v] SIR ROBERT PHELIPS agrees to have it put off until tomorrow morning, and to have a committee rather argue this business than discourse it.

Resolved, to put off the debate of this great business until tomorrow morning; then the whole House to sit as a committee, and Mr. Speaker to sit by.

[House adjourned]

II. DIARY OF JOHN HAWARDE, WILTSHIRE AND SWINDON ARCHIVES, 9/34/2

[p. 213]

19 Martii 1623

1. L. Bill pur Edward Alcock de vendre terres pur paimente de detts et raiser porcions pur infants.

3. L. Bill pur naturalizinge de Philip Burlamachi.

Sur question, passe pur leye.

3. L. Bill pur naturalizinge Giles Vandeputt.

Sur question, passe pur ley.

3. L. Bill pur probate de suggestions in cases de prohibicions.

Sur question, passe pur leye.

SIR EDWIN SANDYS reporte pur trade:

  • 1. Que 4 merchants de chescun companye in Londres appere Martis proximus. Trade de increase ou decaye, le cause; les reasons de decaye del monye, et cur ne inlarge.
  • 2. Officers del customes to sende what exportacyon, what ymportacion; a noate in wrytinge synce the laste Parliamente.
  • 3. Master et officers del minte to sende a noate how much coyned of bullyon ymported, how much of other.
  • 4. Merchant Adventurers pattente, 28 Eliz. There [sic] courte booke, et order.

1. L. Bill pur faire le river del Thames navigable al Universitie de Oxford. This ingrossed, came from the Lords.

[p. 214] SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. Coldness a degree to deadnes.

SIR JOHN ELIOT. [Blank]

SIR THOMAS EDMONDES, LE TRESORER. "A work well begonne is halfe ended"; reputacion is the neereste waye of possession. £300,000 for the navie, securing Ireland, ayding the Lowe Cuntries.

SIR MILES FLEETWOOD. [Blank]

SIR GEORGE MORE. Wee shall followe the Kinge's demaunds as Peter followed Christe a farre off. He that gyves wordes of promyse and consyders not how to perfourme doth but deceave. 3 subsidies, 6 fifteenes.

SIR JOHN SAVILE.

  • 1. What is to doe?
  • 2. What the charge?
  • 3. The meanes to raise it?

SIR ROBERT MANSELL. Our fleete ove £25,000 of greate consequence. 15 of his Majestie's shippes; in all, 50 saile to passe. 20,000 men besydes the trayned men, armor for them. 3 or 4 hundrede thousand poundes will doe all this [p. 215] as allso to secure Irelande.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. To holde us to the firste pointe, what wee are to doe.

SIR RICHARD WESTON, CHANCELLOR D'EXCHEQUER. Whatsoever is gyven is gayned in this. Opinion or reputation is as essentiall as the doinge it selfe. I dare not saye so much, nor the time, how much the present necessitie requyres.

SIR JAMES PERROT. Wee sayle betweene winde and water. Moderated in time and leavyinge. This dissolution of the treaties. No treatie with any other to prejudice our religion.

SIR FRANCES SEYMOUR. The gifte not too heavye; the people not overburdened. Our judgements and affections to goe together. Securing coastes at hoame, Ireland, Low Cuntries. 1 subsidie, 2 fifteenes if a cessions [sic]; papists paie doble.

MR. [JOHN] PYM. A committee of the [w]hole House.

SIR EDWARD GILES. First what we are to gyve.

SECRETARIE CONWAY. To declare speedily and freelye our guifte to gyve satisfaction.

[p. 216] MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY. [Blank]

SIR GEORGE CHUDLEIGH. None under £5 lands and those to paye the vallewe.

SIR ROBERT HARLEY. The Kinge crowne our worke with his declaracon.

SIR ARTHUR INGRAM. What is to be done?

SIR GEORGE CHAWORTH. 2 subsidies, 4 fifeteenes, cession, greevances.

MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. 18 E. 3 the lyke presydent to put it into our owne Tresorers' hands. Our plate converted.

Sur debate pur standinge up to speake le eie del Speaker doit determine cest.

SIR HENRY MILDMAY. Unhappie that dyvertes. Wee have 2 feares: what to gyve, when presydent. Committee del Huise this afternoone, the Speaker heere.

SIR JOHN WALTER. 3 subsidies. State of religion. Gods cause hetherto neglected and our freinds, the cause of our miserie.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. 4 subsidies with doble fyveteenes.

[p. 217] SIR HENRY ANDERSON. To yealde to his Majestie's demande, but a committee de modo et tempore.

SIR HENRY VANE. For 6 subsidies and doble fifeteenes par order, and a committee to debate it this afternoone.

SIR BAPTIST HICKS agrees with the most. Wee are at the stake but, God be thanked, not at that stake which they wolde have us.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. No question, yet no man disagrees to gyve. A dangerous thinge to engage [in] a warre to be contynewed.

SIR EDWARD COKE. Modele and materialls for a buyldinge. Subsidies or other meanes. The subjected not overburdened nor [paimente] delayed. Exempla pr[a]eteritorum sunt exempla futurorum.

  • 1. A cession now.
  • 2. Anoather at Michaelmas.
  • 3. In the springe.
  • 1. Securing Ireland.
  • 2. Defence of our own coasts.
  • 3. Our navye.
  • 4. Joine ove Lowe Cuntryes and assiste them.
  • 5. Palatinate recovered.

2nd consideracion, for the supporte:

A subsidye is 70 thousande pounde 120
Fiveteene, 30 thousande pounde 120
Subsidy del clergye, 20 thousande pounde 120
120 thousande pounde 360

[p. 218] Nominative subsidies and not reall. 3 subsidies, papists doble; touts de paier qui deias 6 mois nont repaire al esglise.

SIR EDWARD WARDOUR. A declaracion of a voate of 6 subsidies and 12 fivetenes par order et de modo puis.

MR. SOLICITOR. Glad to see so much devotion to this busynes; hoape not to parte without a blessinge. A thousand times better to have a warre than a doubtfull and dangerous warre [sic]. The Kinge not able himselfe. Quantum tantum as the busynes will requyre. 3 subsidies and 3 fifeteenes. 2 of them entirelye payde presently in Maye, 1 at Michaelmas.

SIR CHRISTOPHER HILDYARD. 2 subsidies and 2 fiveteenes.

SIR ROBERT KILLIGREW. [Blank]

SIR THOMAS LUCY. [Blank]

SIR THOMAS JERMYN. Any mony in the Kinge's coafers steiped in the teares of the poore. A candle in France for the pope's ambassador.

[p. 219] MR. [WILLIAM] RAVENSCROFT. [Blank]

SIR CHARLES MORRISON. To gyve; but what and for what desires a committee.

SIR JOHN SAVILE. More danger to give too little than to gyve too muche.

SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. Disabilitie of the kingdome to be layde awaye. Rather a professed enemye than a dissemblinge freinde. To resolve the question in the generall.

MR. [JOHN] SELDEN. For a committee.

SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. No question before tomorrowe, and a committee.

III. DIARY OF JOHN HOLLES, BL, HARL. MS 6,383

[f. 103]

Friday, the 19th of March

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. I do not doubt but the King's answer is clearly understood, having explained the doubts. He is resolved in conscience and honour that the treaties may be broken and the war justifiable; only requires our advice for the manner of publishing. The Parliament's offer is a fountain never to be drawn dry.

[f. 103v] I think the King's demands great. Matters of state as much carried by reputation as substance. He would secure Ireland, strengthen the forts of England, send 10[,000] or 12,000 men into the Low Countries, 4,000 into Ireland, 10 ships of the King's and 20 others to sea. What we give to this action, we give to our religion, to our lives, to our fortunes. Let us not suffer a business of this importance to grow cold, for coldness is a kind of deadness. If this business fail, all our hopes are buried in this place.

SIR JOHN ELIOT. A remedy far off seems worse than the disease. At first he was much dejected upon the King's answer by his own mistaking. If the Spanish treaties be not suddenly broken, they will, I fear, break us. One may say of the Spaniard, as a father said of the devil, non tam potentia sua, quam negligentia nostra. Are we poor? Spain can enrich us.

SIR THOMAS EDMONDES moved to give the King some competent sum to enable him to set out a fleet, to secure Ireland and relieve the Low Countries, for which he thought some £300,000 necessary, and a yearly contribution to maintain the war.

SIR MILES FLEETWOOD the same way.

SIR GEORGE MORE. We must not, like Peter, deny the King, but, like Peter, follow Christ. Consider how we can give, otherwise it is but dare verba. He would have a conference with the Lords to know what will be [f. 104] necessary. The Queen had Spain, the pope and other Catholic princes her enemies, whereupon there was granted 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens, which was the first time that 2 subsidies was granted for the war. In her 33 [sic] year, the occasion continuing, there was granted 3 subsidies and 6 fifteens. In her 40 [sic] year, 4 subsidies and 8 fifteens. He would know what sum were necessary. He concurred with Sir Thomas Edmondes for £300,000, which was about 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens.

SIR JOHN SAVILE. To know, first, what we should do, then how we should do it and how to levy it.

SIR ROBERT MANSELL concurs with [Sir John] Savile. A fleet at sea would ease us of all other charge of sending a land army, etc. So within 7 years, we should war with ease, pleasure and profit. We have a fleet never yet made use of, which with £25,000 charge, 15 ships of the King's and 30 merchants' would do great service and impair no trade. He would have 20,000 men mustered in readiness and armed beyond the trained soldiers; for this, £400,000 would serve.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. This the greatest matter in Parliament and most concerns us and our country. We had already made a very large offer. Let us look to our reputations and do something for our countries. The King, by his speech, is free; the burden lies upon the House. The King [f. 104v] bids us not oppress his people, so that if the people be oppressed, it is by us. He concurs with Savile to proceed punctually. In Edward the 4['s] time, a precedent of one that was trusted for managing the money gathered for the war, with condition to restore it if not so employed.

SIR RICHARD WESTON. Whatsoever is given in this is gained. The sound of 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens very fearful. He would have it put to question, he dares not say for so much, but for what will be necessary, and refer it to a committee. That the charge shall continue no longer than the cause. That we shall be our own treasurers. And not to give without declaration.

SIR JAMES PERROT. That not only these but all other treaties prejudicial to religion may be broken. He moved to confer with the Lords.

SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. Generals will satisfy on neither side. The King's demand offers 2 particulars: his care not to overburden with hasty levying; his caution to have it so given as might serve the turn. If this sum be given, he would know for what; he would have our judgements and reasons go together. He hears of a war and an army; he would know where this war should be made. The war in the Palatinate not fit for this House to consider by reason of the charge. If the King will make this a session and make good laws, for these [f. 105] purposes he would give one subsidy and two fifteens. He would have the papists give a double subsidy, who live privately without charge or service to the commonwealth.

MR. [JOHN] PYM. All that we save is saved out of the fire. He concurred with [Sir Richard] Weston to give the whole sum, 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, and refer the particulars to a committee.

SIR EDWARD GILES. The subject is willing to satisfy the King. He would have a course taken to know what we have to do, for we give not only for ourselves but for the country. He concurred with [Sir John] Savile; he would know what we are to give, for what and how to levy it.

SIR EDWARD CONWAY. It is not for us to dispute where the King would make the war. The King said the last Parliament he was then so engaged in treaty with Spain that if that King did comply with him, he could not break off. The Prince was then enamoured upon fame of the Infanta's virtues. The favourite then that way affected, and the Council also. But now we cannot fear these things can be knotted together again. He would have an order to give the King's whole demands, and regulate it with those reservations the King sets down. Every man holds what he has, whether favourite, great lord or other, not as he is such a man but as he is in protection of the king and law. What we thirst for is to have the King declare; no way to make him declare but to give him a round and full satisfaction.

[f. 105v] MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY. He would have us so give as we might always give. If he thought we should not be again called together when occasion served, he would not give one farthing. He concurred with Sir John Savile.

SIR GEORGE CHUDLEIGH. The King not experienced in war, knows not the charge. He moved the gift to be between [£]2[00,000] or £300,000, but to be raised off the richest; no man to give that is under £5 land. Benevolences have troubled us more than anything else.

SIR ROBERT HARLEY spoke nothing to purpose.

SIR ARTHUR INGRAM. No man that has spoken but willing to give. He concurred with [Sir John] Savile; he would know what is to be done and what must be raised for doing it, and how it must be raised.

SIR GEORGE CHAWORTH. He thinks both treaties already at an end, and the marriage as much at an end as if two armies were in the field, and the breaking of these two may break a third, which is that of peace. He will go a new way which no man has yet trodden. He propounded to give for good laws and refer it to the King's disposing, for the war was not yet near making. Deliver yourselves from inward enemies, briberies, oppressions, corruption and great fees, and for this to give 2 subsidies.

MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. In the 18th of Edward the 3rd, the King advised with the Parliament about the danger which they said the very English tongue was in; they gave him then a great gift, 2 subsidies [sic] and 2 fifteens; they besought him to go over in person and not give over until he had brought the business to some good effect; the Lords promised to go with him; and they had treasurers of their own. He had more children than acres, yet for this good business he [f. 106] would eat with a wooden spoon. St. Ambrose and 2 other bishops did sell their vasa sacra for maintenance of the war and said how should they answer it another day if they spared the dead vessels and let the living vessels perish. He concluded to give two subsidies with promise of more hereafter, as occasion served. He moved for a committee of the whole House this afternoon.

SIR JOHN WALTER. The occasions of war were three: recovery of the Palatinate, withstanding the King of Spain's ambitious designs and maintenance of religion. For the particulars of the war, he would not have those secrets of state handled here so publicly, but referred to the Council of War. He moved to give 4 subsidies, which was about £300,000. The cause of the general decay of men's estates was our neglecting our afflicted brethren abroad.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE was for [Sir John] Savile's motion; what was needful to be done, the charge and manner of levying. The King contradicts himself: he holds our offer, more than millions of subsidies, and yet general terms will not carry it; he says also, if this may be done, he will follow our advice, as much to say, if this may not be done e contra. In 70 of Edward the 6, there was a war decreed; in 2nd of Queen Mary, it was released, which shows it was treated here. In the 31 of Queen Elizabeth was the first that two subsidies were given; in her 43 there was 4 given. The last Parliament, subsidies were given without laws; now he would have subsidies and laws, and laws and no subsidies, and then they were quit.

[f. 106v] SIR THOMAS BELASYSE. Two subsidies sufficient.

SIR HENRY ANDERSON. Dangerous to give so much, and not to give at all.

SIR HENRY VANE. If this day succeed not well, to be feared Parliaments will not be so frequent. He moved a general committee this afternoon to put to question how much the kingdom was able to give.

SIR BAPTIST HICKS concurred for his particular to give the uttermost, but if syse, cinque be too much and the kingdom not able to reach to it, and if deuce, ace will not serve to do the business, quater, trey bears all away.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. In these dear years, people have sold their very armour to buy bread. He would have the King have his subjects' hearts as well as their purses. No man is against giving. He would have the question deferred until the afternoon.

SIR EDWARD COKE. Exempla praeteritorum testimonia futurorum. The King would not have his subjects overburdened but graciously refers it to us that know the states of our countries. He would be loath to remember the dangerous effects of too great givings. A subsidy of the laity is about £70,000, a fifteen between [£]29[,000] and £30,000, a subsidy of clergy is £20,000. Six subsidies and 12 fifteens come to £900,000. The question being deliberative, you must make the first question whether this may be done.

In the 18 of Edward the 3rd, the state advised the King to war and not to stay the same at the suit of the pope or any other; the King, though a sword man, [f. 107] inclined to peace. The Commons gave him [blank]. The Black Prince, so-called not of his complexion but because he ever wore black armour. In the 6 of Henry the 6, the King consulted with his Commons to make war with France; he desired the poorer sort might be spared, that is, by subsidies only, not fifteens. In the 43 of Edward the 3rd, the Black Prince being in Spain [sic], the King consulted with the Parliament. He concurred with that honourable gentleman that bears the name of Treasurer, who wished a contribution of £300,000 to be divided into 3 parts, as the King has promised 3 sessions. He would have as many subsidies as amount to so much, but as few fifteens as you will. He would have those papists that have not been at church these six months pay double or treble to us, as you think good. He thinks this sum sufficient to secure Ireland and ourselves at home. He would have as few subsidies booked as can be.

SIR EDWARD WARDOUR to no purpose.

MR. SOLICITOR HEATH propounded whether we should now go on or refer it to the afternoon.

It was agreed to go on now.

Better a war declared than a dangerous and deceitful peace. We desire to be unbuckled from the false and feigned amity of the King of Spain, yet will not prepare so much as to defend ourselves. He would not have the recusants have the honour to pay double, and yet hoped we should have more from them. The subsidy book grew daily less and less. [f. 107v] The sum he would have to be about £300,000. He would not have too many fifteens, nor altogether left out, lest they should grow out of use and be forgot. He would have 3 subsidies and 3 fifteens. In the 43 of Queen Elizabeth, there was 4 subsidies given and 8 fifteens, half whereof in hand, and for the same reasons that this is now given.

SIR CHRISTOPHER HILDYARD would give but 2 subsidies and 2 fifteens. In [15]88, the Queen desired no more for the charge to beat back the Spanish navy and the journey to Lisbon.

SIR ROBERT KILLIGREW would have a present committee to set down the charge.

SIR THOMAS LUCY would have it referred to the afternoon.

SIR THOMAS JERMYN. He desires rather to hear than to speak in this place. The King would have no money in his coffers steeped in the tears of his subjects. He would have, if not a spiritual, yet now a civil fast, and to sit out this business. He would be glad to see the Spanish ambassadors truss up their goods and be gone, for this declaration once made there is no use of them. The last King of France bade a pope's ambassador should be gone before a candle were burnt out. He knows, if he has offended any, he has pleased himself.

MR. [WILLIAM] RAVENSCROFT. To put it off to a committee.

SIR CHARLES MORRISON. To meet in the afternoon, to desire the King to declare himself. Let us know what to give and for what, and then no man shall give more cheerfully than myself.

[f. 108] SIR HENRY POOLE. To put it off to the afternoon, to consider to have aid from the papists and from Scotland.

SIR JOHN SAVILE said he had done an ill office to the King that moved to have it questioned, for the House being divided, if the King should fail, it would be a great discredit.

SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. It was the old fashion of Parliaments, if a man spoke absurdly or distastefully, not to be cried down but answered or checked. He thinks some possess the King that the kingdom is so poor as it is not able to defend itself, and thereby fright the King. Better a professed enemy than a dissembling friend. Heretofore, the King has been abused e contra and made believe the kingdom was richer than it was.

MR. [JOHN] SELDEN. Will not speak to the great matter in hand nor to the orders of the House, being so young a Parliament-man, but yet he has been no stranger to the journals of either House and found that the pettiest business has not been so precipitated.

SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. To put it off until next morning.

IV. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS JERVOISE, HAMPSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, 44M69/F4/20/1

[p. 71]

The 19th of March

SIR EDWIN SANDYS, being of the committee of trade, reports to the House the desire of the committee is that the merchant[s] of London may attend on Tuesday next or send four [of each company].

Second motion: to send to the Custom House, may send on Tuesday next an [sic] note to the committee of the importation and exportation of commodities since the last Parliament.

Third [motion:] to have a certificate from the minters what money[s] have been gained since the last Parliament of bullion imported or exported, and the great book of the Merchant Adventurers.

This motion ordered accordingly.

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD first moved in the business of subsidy. 12,000 men into the Low Countries, 4,000 into Ireland, ten of the King's ships and 20 other will but be sufficient.

SIR JOHN ELIOT. [Blank]

SIR GEORGE MORE. To know, first, what present sum will serve [?the] war, and confer with the Lords for that purpose.

[p. 72] SIR JOHN SA[VILE]. First, to know what we shall do in this business; second, what the charge of that will come to; third, to consider how to levy it.

SIR EDWARD CONWAY moved to give the King 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens.

V. DIARY OF JOHN LOWTHER, CUMBRIA ARCHIVE CENTRE, CARLISLE, DLONS/L/2/1

[f. 34v]

[19 March 1624]

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. That everyone understood the King's speech by explanation. He professed all may be broken and justified by war. He expects our assistance to his declaration. The general offer a fountain, particulars poor. Yet he offers to quit his own interest, leaves time to us, desires only declaration.

And state stands by reputation as by substance. Low Countries 10,000 men, Ireland 4,000. Navy 10 ships le Roy et 20 autre, which this charge will but do. Therefore, must be done, lest we be contemptible to our enemies, useless to our friends, and it is improvidence to be sparing of a part. Coldness.

SIR JOHN ELIOT. The consideration of particulars shows danger on both sides. If some of this remedy seems as dangerous as the disease, yet consideration of the great danger requires resolve. He considers the Spanish treaty and our negligence as evil as their design. He [?concurs] with Sir B[enjamin] R[udyard]. And that man that values an outward thing to the Prince is not worthy to/

[f. 35] SIR THOMAS EDMONDES. Nothing more unnecessary than to use arguments to do the things which we desire. The greatness of the sum may trouble, yet principium facti. And he can't do less than £300,000.

SIR MILES FLEETWOOD. [Blank]

SIR GEORGE MORE. To provide for what intend[ed], yet so as may content King and subjects; and to see how to pay, else we do but dare verba. Therefore, first fit to confer with the Lords of the occasion.

In Queen Elizabeth's time, 2 subsidies first granted to the war with pope and Spain, then 3 subsidies, then 4. Therefore, according to the occasion, to proportion the charge, which he computed to 2 subsidies, 4 fifteens to the home charge.

SIR JOHN SAVILE ad idem. First, the occasion; second, charge; third, how to levy it.

SIR ROBERT MANSELL proposed silence, but he concurs as a way to please. It is not setting out a fleet put [sic] the making of a fleet, which will be better than to assist with 1,000,000, for they have been preparing, and so have we need, else we shall not be able to assault him. He wishes an army to be prepared, yet not sent. The fleet, with [£]25,000, will be the best that ever was; but 30 sail, [f. 35v] the other but 15 of the King's ships, which will transport 20,000 men fairly. He would have arms for these men. The end only to be known to King and P[rince]. [£]3[00,000] or £400,000 will do it all, and this will secure Ireland, except the soldiers' pay.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. Our brave offer so well accepted. He desires to confirm Sir John Savile's motion. He got the speech late; wise and politick. The King puts all on us; it is not he that charges the people but we. Therefore, pursue it, but first to consider how it may be managed under account.

MR. CHANCELLOR OF EXCHEQUER. The King clearer in nothing than this action; his doubt only to prepare himself, please his friends and displease his enemies. Whatsoever is given is gained in this, and we never nearer than now to recover ourselves, and therefore to reflect too much upon our own estates is to hinder all. His opinion to pass the question, first, not for all, nor as a law, but as occasion may require. That this [f. 36] may be done by committee. To have our own treasurer not to proceed but as the occasion proceeds.

SIR JAMES PERROT:

  • [1.] To consider whether 6 subsidies, 12 fifteens will suffice how near.
  • 2. Whether we tender not to his Majesty's conditions, not to treat prejudicially to our religion.

SIR F[RANCIS] SEYMOUR. That the King desires to give, yet so as not to overburden. The sum without precedent, yet admit requisite it is first to know to what end. But to carry our judgements and affections together. The King speaks of the Palatinate; we did never so intend as impossible, but the preparation to secure us and our neighbours he likes. If the King please to make a session of good laws, give one subsidy, 2 fifteens, and the papists double.

MR. [JOHN] PYM. We have gone forward. He prays that we fall of no relapse, for what we receive or hold after treaties is as saved out of fire. Therefore, to return to Chancellor of Exchequer's motion.

SIR EDWARD GILES would do all, but first to know how to do.

[f. 36v] SECRETARY CONWAY. Not to ask where the war until declaration of a war. He desires to look back. What we desired, not now to reject. The King once hoped well. The King engaged, thought once universal monarchy desired. The Parliament carried with opinion, now contrary declared. Can we think these may knit, can we fear that if we give a voice to give 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens with power to us to regulate it by ourselves, then is it not reserved to our own purpose of necessity whereby we get declaration the Prince's honour and all secured? That the Palatinate cannot be undertaken suddenly, yet shipping, etc., and to be done by the weakening the King of Spain.

MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY. To put Sir John Savile's motion to the question.

SIR G[EORGE] CHUDLEIGH concur[s], but desires not to know the particular war as unfit. But to the second, to supply a good sum, [£]2[00,000] or [£]300,000, though not so much as desired and sedente le Curia to supply. Those under £5 land or goods to pay nothing to it, and to give for the [f. 37] subsidies passed the laws agreed. To pay as in the King's books, and to have a treasurer, etc.

SIR R[OBERT] HARLEY desires to leave out Sir John Savile's first. To proceed as we advised. That we proceed and order that 6 subsidies, etc., be granted if the war, whereof 3 now to be granted and other 3 hereafter to our own committees, not Exchequer.

SIR ARTHUR INGRAM. All willing to give, the proportion considerable.

SIR G[EORGE] CHAWORTH. The treaties are broken off; peace will follow. The King's reputation, our honour at stake. The war will not be instant. The preparation may be done without declaration of war abroad. The Low Countries is not so easily taken. 300,000 men in Ostend, then not so easy. Spent in speech.

Relieve the subject of grievance, oppression, exactions, and at the end of 6 months we may soon give 3 subsidies then, now one. To/

[f. 37v] MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. That as the former did tend to diversion and agreed with none, so none, he hoped, would with him. That the doing of somewhat to resist and impeach necessary and will [illegible]. He confessed more children than acres and cited the three bishops' sale of vasa sacra to preserve the rest.

SIR H[ENRY] MILDMAY. Safe but for our fears:

  • 1. The quantity.
  • 2. The precedents.

First, not to the King but kingdom. Second, that to consider what will serve, if all, half or part, move a committee, afternoon.

SIR JOHN WALTER. The occasions 2: Palatinate, and resist Spain. I name sum and reasons. 4 subsidies, [£]300,000. First, to encourage undertakers. Second, to make good our advice. Third, what foreigners may take notice. Country, if poor, yet lower if need be to wooden dishes. Cursed of late because we of late have forsaken God's cause. We have been honourable and now contemptible.

[MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE. We are our own treasurers and must come to particulars.

SIR THOMAS B[ELASYSE]. [Blank]

[f. 38] SIR H[ENRY] ANDERSON. Upon consideration of all, the King will declare if we assist; he hopes we may do it howsoever dangerous. To go on with Sir B[enjamin] R[udyard] and put to question.

SIR H[ENRY] VANE. That since precedents did grow upon occasion.

SIR BAPTIST HICKS. Sise suite.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD stays the question. All agree to give, but howsoever look to fifteens. To enter an order is without precedent to give subsidies. Therefore, to have committee to debate it first.

SIR E[DWARD] COKE. Demosthenes best long, he short. First, the work, then the charge. He noted the consequence of overburden and the King's care. Subsidy, laity, [£]70[,000]. Fifteen, [£]30[,000]. Clergy, [£]20,000. England cannot give this six-fold.

Deliberatives: first, possibilities; second, conveniency. 18 E. 3 numere 60 Parliament, the King advising of war, they treated not to agree but, etc. 42 E. 3 the people could not agree to peace, but aided in war. So 6 H. 7 then spared fifteens. He disliked nominative subsidies and orders.

[f. 38v] SIR E[DWARD] WARDOUR revives Secretary C [sic] Conway's motion.

SOLICITOR. After 12 o'clock, it may not be deferred until afternoon. The 3 subsidies, 3 fifteens.

SIR CHRISTOPHER HILDYARD. 2 only. He was here [15]88.

SIR ROBERT KILLIGREW. The charge not to be particulated.

SIR THOMAS LUCY. To retire and come again in the afternoon. The reasons from the King that we consider.

SIR THOMAS JERMYN, after a general commendation, answers the objection of poverty, that the King desires it not. He desires a temporal fast to attend these. He desires the Spanish ambassador[s] to be sent away and cited the candle of France. He thinks there is a submystery [sic] working. Therefore, desires haste to have all resolved to quit the papists.

SIR CHARLES MORRISON. To appear afternoon to have the laws, and no man sooner.

SIR H[ENRY] POOLE yet not ready for question, for no reply here allowed. His reasons.

SIR JOHN SAVILE against the question, for the disadvantage if overruled, for it is not yet prepared. He thinks too little may be as well too much.

[f. 39] SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. That he thinks the King may be too much possessed with disability to our disadvantage. He affirms Sir John Savile, and to consider of a proposition to please the King.

MR. JOHN SELDEN. A committee in this as in [?last].

SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. Until morning, then to be a committee and House.

VI. DIARY OF EDWARD NICHOLAS, TNA, SP 14/166

[f. 89]

Friday, 190 Martii 1623

An act for the naturalizing of Philip Burlamachi of London, merchant. 3. L. This bill is now passed our House. r. p.

An act for naturalizing of Peter [sic] Vandeputt of London, merchant. 3. L. This bill is now passed our House. r. p.

An act concerning probate of suggestions in case of prohibitions. 3. L. This bill is now passed our House. Dormit Lords.

SIR EDWIN SANDYS desires from the committee of trade that, by the order of this House, 4 of every company of merchants of London may here attend the committee of trade to show their reasons why the restraint of trade may not be opened and set at liberty. [f. 89v] And that those merchants should show whether trade be since the last Parliament increased or decreased, and the reasons of it, and what are the causes of the want of money, and that their reasons hereof be set down in writing.

That the masters of the mint and officers, by order of this House, may set down how much money since the last Parliament has been coined of foreign bullion, or of bullion that was here in [the] land. That the officers of the Custom House may also be sent for to bring in their books and to show their reasons of their fees, and that the Merchant Adventurers shall bring in their patents and their great court book.

These motions made by Sir Edwin Sandys are all ordered and the parties are to attend here as is desired upon Tuesday next.

An act for making of the making of the [sic] river of Thames navigable from the village of Burcot in comitatu Oxonie to Oxford for the passage of boats and lighters. 2. L. [sic]. This bill is committed. r. p.

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD says that he doubts not but the King's answer is clearly understood by all the members of this House and the rather because the King has since explained his own words; that the King does profess that he is resolved, both in honour and conscience, that he may break both the treaties and justify it by a war, and will advise with us of the manner of it, and we are to supply him for so great a business. [Blank] [f. 90] Generals are too much in the air. [Blank] That he believes everyone does [blank]. The King desires that we should pitch on particulars, as well for the encouragement of his friends as the disheartening of his enemy. [Blank] 10,000 men to be sent to the Low Countries, 4,000 to Ireland, and 10 King's ships, accompanied with 20 merchants' [blank]. That he would have [blank]. [f. 90v] What we give to this action, we give to our religion and it is improvidence to spare a part when all is in danger. He would have us resolve on some good particulars, which he leaves to be set down by ancienter Parliament-men, but he would have us resolve on something before the recess lest the business grow cold, for coldness is a degree of deadness.

SIR THOMAS EDMONDES would have us consider that war is as much carried by reputation as power, and what we shall now declare to give will wou[n]d our enemies. He thinks that we cannot give less than £300,000 to supply the present occasion of fortifying Ireland, assisting of the Low Countries, furnishing and supplying of the forts, and setting forth of ships, and besides something for the maintenance of the same being furnished. He would have us recollect ourselves from all jealousies and give cheerfully and readily now we have so good occasion.

SIR GEORGE MORE says that we see the King's care to know how he shall maintain a war before he begin it and he would have us consider how we shall be able to pay money before we yield to give any. The King demands [f. 91] 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, and he would have us follow his Majesty as Peter followed Christ, afar off. He would have us sent to the Lords to confer with the Lords to know what will fit the present occasions, which he thinks 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens will very well supply.

SIR JOHN SAVILE would have us, first, consider what is necessary to be done; second, what will do it; third, the means how to raise what will perform the charge of what is to be given for a supply of what is to be done.

SIR ROBERT MANSELL. He thinks it necessary that a fleet, not many fleets, should be prepared. He knows that the Spaniard has during all the treaties been preparing for war and therefore would have us use no delay. That there is a fleet will be made ready with the charge of £25,000, and less than 30 other ships will do it and 15 to be of the King's ships. For an army, he would have 20,000 men presently to be levied for a standing. That for Ireland there will be out of these preparations a sufficient supply only [for] the payment of soldiers there.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD would have us take care that our resolution, which we shall now make, do not lessen what we have offered. Whatsoever we do, the King is free, and the people will say that we (if we exceed their abilities) oppress them. That the King's speech is a very wise one. He would have us debate by particulars and not resolve of anything [f. 91v] until all be concluded on. Would have us see precedents how supplies for war have been managed, which should be by men that may be accountable to us.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER thinks the King's answer is clear, and his Majesty has not sought to bind us and keep himself free. That the sound of 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens is very fearful, but the necessity of the present business is great. He would have us propound now a certain sum for a present supply and then consider of the time and manner of levying of it at a committee, which he thinks will be best for the debate of so great a business.

SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. That generals can give satisfaction neither to the King nor us. The King demands a great sum, and he thinks it worthy the consideration of this House whether ever so great a sum as is demanded was given by a Parliament. He would be glad to know where and with whom the war shall be. That he thinks a war in the Palatinate is not worthy our consideration. Would have us now consider of the securing of Ireland and our own coasts, and the assistance of the Low Countrymen. That if the King will make this a sessions [sic] and that we may have good bills pass, he would give 1 subsidy and 2 fifteens; and the papists to pay double subsidies and double fifteens, for that they pay nothing toward any charge and they are ready to give supply [f. 92] to our enemies for the Catholic cause.

MR. [JOHN] PYM would have us first resolve that if the war shall be and continue, that we will give the general of the King's demands of subsidies and fifteens, but at a committee to agree on what particulars we shall now give.

SIR EDWARD CONWAY, SECRETARY, says that the King has declared that he will declare if we will declare to give what is fit, and therefore it is now unfit to set down we will know where and with whom the war shall be. That the King does say that Spain aims at the monarchy of the world. The Lords have joined with us that they think it fit that the treaties shall be broken, and the King says that he is resolved that he may do with his honour and conscience, and therefore this breach is not easily to be set together. He would have us resolve that in conformity to our general resolution, we will give the 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens and engage ourselves for it as far as particularly men may, and after to consider particularly how to give and when. This will produce the King's declaration and rectify the Prince's honour. [Blank] That which we gripe and sigh for is the declaration of his Majesty for the breach of both treaties, which will be by giving his Majesty satisfaction. [f. 92v] Would have us resolve that we will give 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens with those limitations as are mentioned in the King's speech of time and manner, without grieving the subject.

MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY says he is not jealous that we shall break off, for he would not give the King one penny if he thought we should not meet again and here pass good laws. That he would have it for a reputation for us and a discouragement to our enemies that we continue here together in Parliament ready to assist and supply the King with our counsel and our best abilities and means.

SIR GEORGE CHUDLEIGH would have us pitch on the sum of [£]2[00,00] or £300,000, and he would not have a man that is under £5 land or goods to give anything towards this, for the meaner subjects are much impoverished by the late subsidies by benevolences and for want of trade. And he would have those that are above £5 to give 5 subsidies, which will come to about £250,000, and would have us in the bill provide who shall be our treasurers, but of this he thinks there is no doubt.

SIR ROBERT HARLEY would have us order that the 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens shall be given if the King will presently make a full and clear declaration of the breach of the treaties, and when that declaration is made by the King, that then we will here make an act for the passing presently of (if this House shall think the sum not too great) [f. 93] 3 subsidies and 6 fifteens.

SIR ARTHUR INGRAM would have us, first, consider what is to be done; second, what is to be given; third, how it is to be given; and the second to be debated (after the first is resolved on) at a committee.

SIR GEORGE CHAWORTH thinks that the marriage is as far off as we wish it and that touching the Palatinate it's in no more likelihood than the other. That though the war will not be presently, yet he would give a present sum for the provision of a war. He would have the subjects relieved from home enemies, from corruptions, oppressions and extorted fees, and that will enable them to give subsidies. He would have us give 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens, and to it have good bills annexed.

MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. That 180 Ed. 3 the King calling a Parliament for the advice and counsel of his subjects for a war, there it was resolved and agreed that the Parliament should appoint their own treasurers and officers, and it would be a great sacrilege to employ [otherwise] money given for the defence of religion. Himself has more children than acres of ground, but he would give liberally in so good an enterprise and eat in a wooden spoon and sell all towards this good business. He would have 2 or 3 subsidies and some fifteens given towards this business and a declaration that we will give more if the enterprise require it.

SIR H[ENRY] MILDMAY says that we are like to do well if our own fears hinder not. That [f. 93v] we are feared, first, with the quantity of money that is demanded, then, with the precedent; but he thinks if we consider that what we give is for the kingdom, not for the King, and that we never had such a precedent of occasion and yet he will follow any precedent. He would have a committee of the whole House to consider what is first fit to be given, then how we shall give.

SIR JOHN WALTER would have us give for this great enterprise 4 subsidies, which will amount to about £300,000, that thereby we may make good what by our declaration in general we resolved to the King to give; then that foreign ambassadors may see that we are ready to assist our King. God has laid a curse on our land and cattle that they are not prosperous as of wont because we have no better assisted our neighbours of our religion. He would eat in wooden and earthen vessels and abate of his children's portions to assist so good an enterprise, and does think that God would so prosper him that he should be a gainer by it.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE would have us rather fall into the arms of England than Spain. The King says we should bestow the money on this business, not on him. He says that a subsidy given in Ed. 6 was released in Queen Mary's time, and though we give more subsidies than we would (but for the war), let us not despair that we may have something restored again. [f. 94] He would have us pronounce now that we will give the sums demanded, and pass some of them now (as 4 subsidies and 2 fifteens to every subsidy) and some hereafter; and at this first sessions [sic] to have subsidies and laws pass together, and at the next sessions [sic] that we should pass laws and no subsidies, and then we are quits for the last Parliament, and the third sessions [sic] to have laws and bills pass again together.

SIR H[ENRY] VANE would not that foreign ambassadors should hear that we do here debate of the poverty of our country. That there is no kingdom that has better conditions for the subjects than this has, and he would not that our carriage this day should draw us to as bad conditions as others have beyond seas, and that we should also so carry ourselves this day as that we distrust not the Prince, to whom we are so much bound in this business. He would have us, by order in the House, resolve that we will give for war 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens if the business require it and that the war go on and we continue in Parliament; and that a committee of the whole House should here debate of the sum that is fit now to be presently given. The order for the whole will not bind us, but advantage us in reputation with our friends and dishearten our enemies.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD says that the poorer sort have sold their armour to buy corn. This a dear year and that it is therefore impossible that so many fifteens can be given. He never heard of such an order to be entered as is spoken of and therefore cannot yield to it, but would have us consider well of this business.

[f. 94v] SIR EDWARD COKE. That a subsidy of the laity comes to £70,000, a fifteen £30,000 and a subsidy of the clergy to £20,000. So as 6 subsidies of the laity comes to £420,000, 12 fifteens comes to £180,000 [sic] and 6 subsidies of the clergy to £120,000, so all come to a million within £20,000. He would have as many subsidies granted as should amount to £300,000 but no or few fifteens, but he would have our gift to be named £300,000 for the sound of it and not by naming of subsidies or fifteens. And that the papists should give double subsidies and double fifteens, and that all such (though not convicted papists) as have not been at church within this half year or that have been at mass at any ambassador's house.

MR. SOLICITOR. That it is better to have a war than a deceitful and dangerous peace. We desire the King should presently declare the breach of the treaties; then we must presently resolve to provide for the consequences of such a declaration. This business is as much ours as the King's. He would not have it reported in the country that we will give 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens lest it should alter the minds of such as have not the means to debate of the reasons of such great sums. He would have us resolve to give 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens or something equivalent. That subsidies do not amount to as much as they were wont to do. He thinks £300,000 is a reasonable sum. [f. 95] He would have us give 3 subsidies and 3 fifteens, which is not without precedent, and that at or about the end of May, 2 subsidies and 2 fifteens should be paid, and about Michaelmas after, 1 subsidy and 1 fifteen more, by what time a fleet will be ready to go to sea; and in the meantime, that provisions may be made for the fortifying of our coasts and forts and of Ireland. And that we should not rest so but tell his Majesty that we will give more hereafter as occasion shall be, for that we know that such a sum cannot discharge so great and weighty an enterprise.

SIR CHRISTOPHER HILDYARD would have us give 2 subsidies and 2 fifteens.

SIR ROBERT KILLIGREW would have some of this House to cast up the charge of fortifying Ireland and our coasts and setting forth of the ships, which will be done in a quarter of an hour, and thereon that we make our resolution of what we will give.

SIR THOMAS JERMYN is glad that the whole House is so well inclined to give to so good an enterprise. That it is against the desire of our King to see money in his coffers that is steeped in the tears of his people. He would have us not to rise before we have resolved here on this business. If the King shall make the declaration we desire, he sees not why the Spanish ambassadors should not pack up their portable goods and be [f. 95v] gone out of this kingdom; and he would not have us stir until we have resolved on an answer.

SIR CHARLES MORRISON says that the country thought the last Parliament that we and our money were soon parted. He knows it is easier to grant subsidies than levy them. He would have us rise now and meet in the afternoon.

SIR JOHN SAVILE says that there is more danger in giving too little than too much. He is sorry that any question should be yet put. He knows the poverty of the country, yet is he minded to give liberally, but would not have us too soon to resolve.

SIR D[UDLEY] DIGGES doubts that the poverty of the kingdom will be urged to the King by some ill office to the prejudice of the good of the kingdom. He would have it told the King that we do not stick at the value of 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, but have left it to be debated at a committee.

MR. [JOHN] SELDEN would not have us resolve until we have debated it at a committee.

SIR ROBERT PHELIPS would have us defer the debate hereof until tomorrow to be further debated at a committee.

It is resolved that this business shall rest thus debated for this time and that tomorrow we shall further debate of it.

VII. DIARY OF SIR WILLIAM SPRING, HOUGHTON LIBRARY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY, MS ENG. 980

[p. 122]

Friday, the 19th of March

An act for sale of Edward Aurger's, esq., lands, late [Edward] Alcock's. 1 read.

That for [Philip] Burlamachi. Engrossed [sic] and sent to the Lords.

That of [Giles] Vandeputt also.

That for Wales sent also.

That for hospitals, etc.

That for preventing drunkenness, etc.

That for the entries and intrusions of lessees and patentees.

That for the Thames to Oxford.

That for Wadham College.

That for carts and carriages.

That for women convict[ed] of small felonies, etc.

That for reformation of jeofails.

These are sent up to the Lords, 11 in all.

SIR EDWIN SANDYS reports the committee of trade and moves that since they are now about a weighty work to alter and change a settled course, and to set trade free for all men, that they may have all the helps that may be, for it is an innovation and that includes danger always and ought carefully to be considered. Therefore, in the name of the committee, he moves that before they pass to an opinion of what is to be done in it, that they may have 4 out of every particular company (near here about), upon Tuesday next, to give attendance and to present the reasons why trade should not be set free for all. Secondly, that they set down in writing for every company the estate of the increase or decrease and decays of it and of their trade in the condition it now stands, and of the reasons that they do conceive why money does decay. Thirdly, that the officers of the customs send in a note what the importations and the exportations are, to see how they have balanced for 4 years last past. [p. 123] Fourthly, to send and require the officers of the mint to give account how much money has since the last Parliament been there coined of bullion brought in, or of old bullion in the land before or of old coin new minted.

There was a doubt moved by the Speaker whether to send to them by the word "require" or "desire", but the first was thought fit.

All these motions are allowed by the House and ordered accordingly, and that the Merchant Adventurers should bring in their patent of the 28 year of Queen Elizabeth to have it viewed and their great book of accounts.

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. (This being the day assigned for the agitation of the great business and answer to the King's demands). He understands by the King's last speech (but more plainly by the exposition of the two worthy and honourable parties that did it), that the King has professed his resolution for the matter of his honour and conscience to break both these treaties, and that he only reserves his declaration thereof until he find our readiness to assist, which we have done in general, and generals are like fountains, never dry, yet general promises hang in the air; there is no certain footsteps to trace it out by. Therefore, the King presses to particulars and has insisted on some, but with limitations; the demand seems great, but withal observe his care that the subject not be burdened by it. Both may be well satisfied if a present declaration be made of our intents to satisfy the King's demands, and proportion it to a convenient time and manner for the subject's ease hereafter. State matters are carried as much by reputation as by substance. He thinks that the present requires no more than to maintain 12,000 men to the Low Countries, 4,000 for Ireland, and to man out 10 of the King's ships and 20 other is enough, and to furnish our forts and ports. Wishes that these may be expedited, and that to the general it may be reported of so worthy a gift given to the King as may not expose us to the contempt of our enemies [p. 124] and procure the sorrow of our friends. That the sum so given may notwithstanding be levied with a leisureable conveniency and placed securely, but certainly the necessity of the sudden declaration of a worthy proportion is necessary, for the securing and preservation of our lives, our religion, state and friends; for this is to comprehend all, if we now be nice and seek to secure a little we lose all, and to be cold is now hurtful, coldness being ever a degree to death.

SIR JOHN ELIOT observes the danger[s] between which we are to pass: the impossibility of satisfaction of the King's great demands, and the danger if they be not, by the loss of that hopes and desires which we have aimed at. Dextrum latus scyllas. He was dejected at the King's last answer and, mistaking a part, misliked the whole, until by a princely and noble exposition he was well satisfied. When he considers the ruin and decay in the state, in religion and friends abroad, in wealth at home, etc., which by the continuance of these treaties has all happened, he cannot but say with that father non tam diligentia vestra quam negligentia nostra. When he considers the plots and practices put upon our King to draw him to this and that he finds religion, the honour of the King, Prince and nation at the stake, he cannot but think a sudden pain better than a continued grief; and howsoever the present wants may be objected against the matter of supply which must remedy all this, yet let us remember that the war with Spain is our Indies, that there we shall fetch wealth and happiness. Therefore, moves to draw the King on and take advantage that way to further our hopes and desires, etc.

SIR THOMAS EDMONDES thinks there needs no arguments to stir affections in this business, for the necessity of the affair, which is in a high degree, and the interests of religion and state do sufficiently persuade every man to be careful of it, only the difficulty is in the manner how to dispose our affections and purposes in a fitting measure and an easy proportion, etc. [p.125] Let it then be seen and said that when such interests compel us, we can and will surmount all difficulties. The very report of the contribution now to be made will strengthen and encourage our friends abroad and engage them to our assistance, and therefore moves that a competent sum may be conceived fit for the present needful occasions of enabling the fleet, of assistance of the Low Countries, for the securing of Ireland and the furnishing the ports, and he supposes for these 4 that £300,000 may give reasonable satisfaction, especially if we promise to afford more aid hereafter if occasion serve.

SIR GEORGE MORE. That it is time to do, not speak. That it was a point of great wisdom in the King to be assured of means before he engage himself in a war; that he was pleased also to take care the people were not overburdened, and wishes us to follow the King in this course as our good guide, though, as Peter did to Christ, it be but afar off. Whereas the King, before he will declare himself engaged to a war, will know his means and to that end demands 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, so we, before we promise to pay this, to know how we shall be able to perform it, else we do but verba dare and deceive him. First, whether so great a sum is requisite or not, it will be fit to know the present occasion, and to that end it will be no prejudice to the liberties of the House to desire a conference with the Lords who can best resolve us of it. In Queen Elizabeth's time, there was an account given to the Parliament what enemies the Queen then had, the pope, Spain, etc., and it appearing then she had many, 2 subsidies were granted her, and the first 2 that ever were granted; the war continuing, in the 33 [sic] of her reign were give[n] three subsidies and six fifteens, and after that, in the 43 year, 4 subsidies and 8 fifteens. He cites not this as a precedent to lead us, but to let us see the ancient course. He moves that 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens may be given, and if the King please to continue the body of this House together, more may after be given upon just occasion.

SIR JOHN SAVILE moves that things be treated on in order for the better proceeding. Advises to handle, first, the thing to be done, and the necessity of it, the charge it will ask, and the means to raise that charge.

[p. 126] SIR ROBERT MANSELL says that the last course prescribed being well followed, will satisfy the King and joy us, and be the greatest honour to us abroad, and in this path we go right, else we wander. That it is fit that the thing intended to be done should be first known and that is the King's design, for the preparation must necessarily follow that, and then the means for that preparation has its place. The thing we all aim at is to be able to oppose our greatest enemy, that is Spain, for from him we do and have received the greatest injury, and to be able to cope with him is safest for us. He advises, then, not to set forth a fleet but prepare it ready, and so for men, for to have them abroad and on foot is to waste us, and so to encourage our enemies and discourage our friends. They, in the beginning of the treaties, did ever intend to delude and deceive us and have all this time provided themselves and are furnished expecting this. We have been too confident and are unprepared; let us amend that and we shall see the progress of the war easy and happy, if we be once prepared to defend and ready to offend. For this, the fleet, being well furnished and fitted (which may well be with £25,000), will be of better use to the state than ever it was, and then 30 sail of merchantmen and 15 of the King's ships will be ready to transport an army of 20,000 men with ease, and without danger of infection; and if thus many be listed ready for employment (wishing the younger brothers of gentlemen may be employed), besides the ordinary bands of trained soldiers for security at home, with these preparations (once known abroad) the King of Spain will soon find his preparations and strength is too little. For the design, it is fit it should only pass between the King and the Prince and some few more, and for the effecting of all this and the securing of Ireland, he doubts not but £300,000 will serve for the present and for more as occasion shall offer us opportunity hereafter.

[p. 127] MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD moves serious advice to be taken that we disparage not our reputation, nor blemish our former action, and withal to consider the state of the country. Observes that the King lays it upon the House to provide the people be not overburdened, and that the people will lay it on us, too, if they feel it. He moves that the first points be distinctly handled for the thing to be done and the necessity of it, and then to add how to the rest as they follow in order (see [Sir John] Savile's motion) supra; this one, how the money levied shall be managed, that there be precedents of the disposing of money in the like kind into the hands of certain persons who are trusted and to be accountable to the Parliament again.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER desires that we may clearly see into the King's intendment in this action, that we may not fear that ever the King will forsake us or our counsel, and therefore is thus cautious to declare himself, but only wisely desirous to foresee his means of defence and offence, and yet he moderates this desire in his demands, respecting the ease of the subject. In so great business, great gifts are great gain. Our lives, honours and fortunes cannot be so dear unto us, as to gain again the honour of the old English nation. We are now near it and in the way to it; to stand upon the wants of the land or doubts of the King will dishearten our friends and encourage our enemies. Six subsidies is great in hearing, but consider the charge shall continue no longer than the occasion lasts and that our own treasurers shall have it, and withal consider the present necessities and the reasonable limitation of an easy and unburdensome levying, and in substance it is not so hideous.

SIR JAMES PERROT moves that these questions may be considered of: what sum will suffice the present occasion, and whether it be fit to move the King to promise that no treaties hereafter prejudicial to our religion may be admitted, etc.

[p. 128] SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. Generals satisfy not either from the King to us or from us to him. He observes in the King's speech last 2 especial parts, his care and a caution: his care not to press his people, his caution not to hinder the business. Consider then whether the commonwealth be able to bear it, whether ever Parliament gave it; and howsoever it be said to be necessary, yet consider to what end we give it and it is fit that should be known. We must in this as well use our judgements as our affections. War is spoken of and an army, but where and against whom is fit to be known; if in the Palatinate (as the King seems to imply), the charge is too great, and it has been far from our thoughts, but we must leave that to the King. It is fit the ports and Ireland should be secured, the Low Countries relieved; and if the King will make this a session and pass the good laws, then for these ends he wishes that 2 subsidies and 2 fifteens may be given, and that the papists who are rich, live privately, bear no charge in the commonwealth and are ready to assist our enemies and hurt us, that they may pay double, that they may so be urged to do some service to the commonwealth.

MR. [JOHN] PYM says that we have made one step from the greatest danger that ever threatened us. God grant we relapse not again, which we may do if we be too tender of making good our first offer, especially with the King's limitations for the times of levying, for the ceasing with the occasion and of having our own disposers, and moves that a committee may be appointed to discuss this.

SIR EDWARD GILES says that the subject is as willing to satisfy the King, as he is to them, but we must consider what we do before we do it, and to what end. We conclude not ourselves but our countries, and we must account for it. When we know for what we do it, we may give freely and boldly.

[p. 129] SIR EDWARD CONWAY would gladly satisfy the doubts whether a war shall be or not, and what shall be done with the money; where the war shall be who can declare until the King declare himself, and that he will not do so until we make known our gift, we see he will not. We have longed for this and yet now we have it, we fear that the King will make peace and get our money. There were indeed some hopes of the like success of war last Parliament, and they drew on subsidies, but yet the King then dealt fairly and told us that if Spain did comply with him, he could not break the amity and treaties with him. Now the King makes no doubt of Spain's ambition to the western world's monarchy. The getting the Palatinate by treaty then swayed much with him. The Prince's affection won by the reports of that King strongly drew him that way. The Council about the King inclined to it and the favourite did lean that way. Now the whole pack is discovered, the King will not stick to think and speak of Spain's ambition. The Prince has found the difference from the reports he heard, the Lords have manifested another opinion. These can never be knit again; the honour of the King and the Prince is engaged in it.

This fears [sic] then arises from nothing. The next is from the noise of the sum; offer the whole and after divide it for the manner under the reservations that the King allows. The King gives us the power to distribute it; therefore, in conformity of our former desires and promises, let us make no delay of this, etc. We shall thereby win the King and the Prince to us by clearing his honour, or else we shall leave fruitless all our hopes and all these means that have been conducible unto this, and no less the labours and hazards of the Prince and the Duke. If we think that all that the King and Prince have said is but a dream, we err strangely. The matter to be done is not only to provide shipping and arms in readiness, [p. 130] but to go farther to provide for the inheritance of the heirs of our state, to which the King is engaged in the honour of his word, which in time shall be done by the weakening of Spain. He moves to promise the King a full satisfaction under reservation of the liberties the King grants.

MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY asks of the House whether they do not desire that Parliaments should be often called; if he knew it were not intended, he would grant nothing. Moves, first, to consider what we have to do; and we are as ready to do as ever subjects were, but we are but stewards and accountable for what we do. And though we gave last time, yet that must rest now and be no precedent for the like, but so order it as the Parliament may be kept together and then they may give as occasion does require; and so it shall better satisfy the world and our friends abroad that we are ready and willing always to give, than to give a certain sum and no more.

SIR GEORGE CHUDLEIGH thinks it not fit for us to enter into the particulars of what war is necessary, yet that the King tells some needful particulars, as of the aid to the Low Countries and for security of Ireland, etc., and that the King's demands are to be considered as done by a peaceful king not acquainted with war and the charge. He moves that between [£]200[,000] and £300,000 be provided and that the levy descend not to the lowest sort of people, not under £5 land and goods answerable, because the mean man, for want of trade and for late benevolences (which trouble only the weak and willing, not the rich), is disabled to give. He hopes the subsidies last given deserve a session now, and to make good the loss of the subsidy in [p. 131] the poor man's abatement, which he thinks will be one 3rd part, he wishes that they above £5 may be raised so much more.

SIR ROBERT HARLEY says he observes the questions in debate are two: what to be done, what to be given. Moves the leaving of the first. The work of this day is to draw the King to a declaration, and he has opened one window into his heart to let us see that if we will in particular declare our aid to him, he will declare his particular intention to us; where that intention of his will fall is not proper for this place nor time; for the King, we know how to have a declaration from him, the Prince has undertaken it.

Consider which demand is greatest, ours or the King's; see the danger of this summer, and then look on the means to prevent it. It is not only our wealth we must respect, but our friends and confederates, and how with advantage to endamage our enemies. Where lies this? In the King's declaration. Therefore, if the King will make a full and particular declaration of the breach of the treaties, let us order that then 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens shall be granted; that of them 3 subsidies and 6 fifteens may be granted this session and the rest when we meet again; that some committees of the commonwealth do keep it; and assure ourselves the King will never hazard the loss of our hearts so to dissemble with us. And so the actions of the committee may be examined as we see cause, as has been seen by precedent heretofore, and so also care may be had not to oppress the people nor delay the affair.

SIR ARTHUR INGRAM. The proportion is the ground we have to work on; not to give too much nor too little. Let us lay our ground well; what is to be done, and what will serve to do it, comes in the second place.

[p. 132] SIR GEORGE CHAWORTH is not of the mind of any before him. He thinks the treaties are sufficiently ended and declared so to be; the marriage is, certainly, and that of the Palatinate cannot stand without it. If the treaty of the peace break, then six subsidies and the 3 fifteens will be little enough, but leave that to the King. The King's honour, the commonwealth, religion and all at the stake, some say. Yet war is not tomorrow. Give the King means good store, tie it with what laws you will and we shall so please the King, and the country too, and leave the dispose to the King. The Low Countries are not in so desperate case, one small town less than the borough of Westminster held Spain 3 years, nor such great danger abroad as is thought. Let us relieve the grievances at home of injustice, of extortion in fees, and get a session and good laws made with speed, and publish 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens, and all will do well enough.

MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. As the last agreed with none before him, so I hope none that come after will agree with him; it savours so much of adverseness. To fall now from fighting with Spain to fight with fees, is to save a drop of our purse to lose the drops of our hearts. The peace with Spain has and does ruin the state, religion and honour; then let such amity break and resist the Roman force. We agree to make good our advice in general, yet we must take care that nothing issue from the subject without assurance of some noble enterprise. Edward the 3rd asked advice for a war in France of his Parliament; they advised it, they prepared for it and put the means appointed into the hands of some designees appointed, who should account it as a sacrilege to employ it otherwise; [p. 133] they also petitioned the King that he would please neither by letters or motion to be diverted from it until some noble enterprise were effected. He says that the particular of what is to be done is not here to be handled, lest our enemies, being forewarned, should be forearmed. He would have men free in giving, though, for his part, he has more children than acres; yet as Cyril, Anacletus and Ambrose did sell vasa sacra to furnish money for a just war, Ambrose answering the cavil of [blank] that he did sell those dead vessels to preserve the living bodies, so he would eat in wood and drink out of earth so that God, who is our strength, his honour may be maintained and the kingdom righted. Moves to offer 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens, with promise to grant more if occasion serve hereafter.

SIR HENRY MILDMAY takes him for an unhappy man that after a business shall be so excellently discussed, shall adventure to propound new projects. He says, as he said before, if we fear not too much, we are safe. 2 fears trouble us now: the quantity of our gift and the precedent for future times. For the first, we must conceive that this is not given to the King, but for the safety of the King, religion and state; and this well understood, the name of the subsidies cannot affright the poor country. For the precedent, if he thought it would prejudice the commonwealth he, notwithstanding his dependency, should be as unwilling to open his mouth to it as anyone there. Wishes to weigh the state of the business well and if the 3rd part of the King's demands may serve, that will be best to fix upon for the present, and to this end moves a committee of the whole House to sit this afternoon to debate this point.

SIR JOHN WALTER [p. 134] says the occasions that will draw on a war are to resist the increasing pride of Spain, and to regain the Palatinate and defend religion. To dispute what war shall be undertaken is in vain, for that the war is changeable by occasion, and it is more proper for a private council than for one so public. That which is proper to this place is to consider what is fit to give in particular. He thinks that less than 4 subsidies, or to that proportion, is not fit for the encouragement of our friends abroad, and to encourage those that shall be employed in the service with good pay, and this is the way to make good our first offer; that also the foreign ambassadors here may declare our readiness to withstand our enemies and the enemies of our religion and state. But withal the poverty of the country must be considered, and yet let our pride of clothes be abated, our great portions to our children, our back and belly lose, rather than suffer so just occasions to want assistance. It is true that the state of the country in the increase of cattle and commodities has been of late not so happy as in former times. The cause he takes to be the want of assistance to the professors of the gospel that suffered for want of our relief. If this cause cease through God's mercy, it will be blest again. We have been famous heretofore, now our honour is in the dust. Yet this free gift for so good cause shall declare us to be the offspring of the ancient English. Regard not then vanity or pride but God and religion, etc.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. [Blank] We have treated yet with the King as Spain did, all in generalities. We see that will not do it, but say if this that I have demanded may be done, I will follow your advice, if not (he dares not conclude, the conclusion is so fearful). [p. 135] The King loves peace and is hardly drawn to war; we cannot lay the fault on him if we grant not his desires. It is true our extremities are great and we have a hard choice, but, with David, let us rather fall into the hands of God than of men, let us rather fall upon God's providence and our own estates than into the hands of Spain. Moves to conclude the King and bind him to his own promises.

He wishes to cast our eyes upon the precedents of subsidies since the change of religion here. Edward the 6, upon urgent occasions, had one and Queen Mary released it (that is a good precedent), and hopes kings will follow the gracious examples of their predecessors as they desire the example in us of the forwardest subjects. There was but one subsidy granted until the 31 of Elizabeth, then 3, after 4, some Parliaments none; great occasions were the cause of so great contributions. Then, daily use and exercise of arms made us fully provided, now we are altogether unfurnished and this will be a great cause of change. We have had one Parliament already for subsidies and no laws, now one for laws and subsidies, next for laws and no subsidies, and then we are quit. He thinks best to give 4 subsidies and 8 fifteens.

SIR THOMAS BELASYSE propounds care of the poorer sort and how it may be had. Thinks 2 subsidies now sufficient.

SIR HENRY ANDERSON confesses the times of Henry the 7th stick yet with him and thinks the very report of subsidies dangerous in the country, but hopes there may be a way to satisfy both parts. And among our provisions, moves to provide for our best friends, the Low Countries, first, and to grant the King's demand in general and to determine de modo afterward.

[p. 136] SIR HENRY VANE moves a tender regard to be had of the privileges of Parliaments and precedents of subsidies, how they have grown; would not have the necessities and poverty of the countries stirred. Desires to make Parliaments frequent and to that end moves not to distaste the King nor the hopes we have in his successor in this kind. Parliaments are England's greatest blessings and proper to this nation above others. Moves that an order only may be made that 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens shall hereafter be granted, and to proportion a part for this session, and to proceed at Michaelmas; by this, the King shall have no power to levy it, and make the order conditional: if the war cease, then the subsidies also. This will preserve the honour of the King and publish to the world the unity between the King and his people.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. No man disagrees from giving, but desires to be wary of fifteens because it is from the poor man. The last Parliament it was thought unfit, now much more. Not to enter contracts to bind us. Our hearts and affections bind us better. Moves that more deliberation be had of these points.

SIR EDWARD COKE says Demosthenes's orations were best when they were longest, his when they were shortest. There can be no estimation of the charge of a building until the model be seen and resolved on and the materials appointed forth. To give the King satisfaction, it will be needful to know what is our work to be done, and then the charge will be esteemed. The King begins with subsidies or other ways, with limitation of no burden too great nor long delay, and these he refers to us to consider [p. 137] because we know the countries best. Exempla praeteritorum sunt adiumenta futurorum. Sudden impositions have ever had dangerous consequence. It has pleased the King to divide our work into parts, first, to advise, to secure Ireland, to prepare the navy, to assist the Low Countries and recover the Palatinate. This is our work and for this we must give. Now consider that a subsidy of the laity is [£]70,000, 2 fifteens [£]30,000, the clergy is [£]20,000, and consider that England is not able to give six times this. It comes within a hundredth 1,000 of a million.

Precedents of special occasions have special reasons. Edward the 3rd was advised to war and requested not to decline the resolution for the pope's motion or anyone whatsoever. He would entertain no peace but with the advice of the Parliament, and, propounding it, they denied it as dishonourable and dangerous, and gave him somewhat to maintain war, and that liberally too, but desired the poorer sort might be spared (which he takes to be concerning of the fifteens). But for a Parliament to set down nominative subsidies and not real was never heard before. The 6 subsidies will amount with the fifteens to £900,000; give the 3rd part, [£]300,000, now and the rest at the other sessions at Michaelmas and the spring. Grant as many subsidies that may sound £300,000 and let the recusants be double, such as are convict[s] or notorious, such as frequent the ambassador's house, as his neighbours of Holborn. This will serve the present, and after we shall further satisfy if need require.

SIR EDWARD WARDOUR. In time, the whole may be given, not now, etc.

MR. SOLICITOR. We must consider how to satisfy the King's demands and our engagements upon our advice. "If the war follow", says the King, "it is fit I know how to maintain it." Prepare then a tantum against [what] the King declares. The King propounds the limitation of time, and we engage not ourselves until the King declare himself. First, [p. 138] we give it not to the King but to the business; it is our cause as we are the body, his as the head. We are all passengers in this one ship, our posterity and our bene esse depends upon it. This is the way not to win the King's affections only to the business, but to the House also.

The matter that is to be done is plain, the manner disputable. The proposition is not to have the whole noise of six at once; and what the kingdom cannot bear at once, proportioned in time may be; it is not exported, it does only change the hand. Wishes the not payment all at once, yet the declaration of it is most needful. He would not have the recusants to have so great an honour in this; better blood shall be wrung out of them. He thinks £300,000 will do well but wishes to consider how many subsidies will raise that, for subsidies are not as they have been; yet there will be no deduction out of these if our own treasurers gather it. Moves not to leave out fifteens wholly lest they be forgotten; moves also to prepare an act to grant the King 3 subsidies and 3 fifteens, and pass it when the King has declared. 2 entire ones together before the end of May for that is needful, and the 3rd towards Michaelmas; if any be spared, it is not lost, our treasury and treasurers have it. This year will not end the war and what is left is ready for the next. That we may crave a meeting at Michaelmas and we will then grant further supply if it need, and in the spring, and pray we may have a spring of money to maintain it.

[p. 139] SIR ROBERT KILLIGREW thinks to design what the fleet or army shall do is not proper to determine here, but only what the charge of such armies and fleet will be.

Here was much calling to the question, to the, etc.

SIR THOMAS LUCY moves that as there has been hitherto much pressing on the King's part, so upon more mature deliberation other things may be considered of the abilities of the countries.

SIR THOMAS JERMYN thinks that if the King were informed of the poverty of the people, he would not desire to have his subsidies bathed in his people's tears. Wishes once to see the treaties so broken that the Spanish ambassador[s] were gone and that, as the French King once served the nuncio of the pope, a candle might be lighted and if he went not away before it were burnt, he would send him away with a vengeance. If the King would declare once he might be gone with all his portable gods, and then the sub-sort of his dependents would vanish also, such as live amongst us. Moves that to be rid of these we may give soon, and not retard the business.

SIR JOHN SAVILE moves for more time of deliberation. Thinks the danger is in giving too little rather than too much.

SIR DUDLEY DIGGES wonders at the motion to put it to the question. That it is fit to be further disposed of. That there have been those that heretofore have wronged the kingdom in making the King believe that it was too rich, now they may do it in saying it is too poor. He thinks the sum cannot be particularized without prejudice to the cause. He thought that the order for a nominative subsidy was a good one, but now is changed. Wishes the King were assured we stick not at the value and that after declaration we will proceed to proportion it.

MR. [JOHN] SELDEN says that it is a parliamentary way to commit all things and this much more.

VIII. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS HOLLAND, BODL., TANNER MS 932

[f. 60]

18 [sic] Martii, Friday

First read. An act to enable Edward Alcock to sell lands in Cambridgeshire.

Engrossed and passed this House. An act for the naturalizing Philip Burlamachi of London, merchant.

Engrossed and passed this House. An act for the naturalizing Giles Vandeputt of London, merchant.

7 bills passed.

Engrossed and passed the House. An act concerning probate of suggestions in cases of prohibition.

[SIR EDWIN] SANDYS'S, report. The desire of the committee of trade that 4 out of every company of merchants upon Tuesday next may attend the committee to show the present state of trade; next, the reason why these have risen since the last Parliament; and what is [the] reason of the decay of money. That the customer [sic] be sent to show the cause of the exportation more than importation. To send to the masters of the mint to inform what money have been minted since the last Parliament. That the Merchants [sic] [Adventurers] bring in their book of 28 Eliz., that patent then granted.

All this is ordered.

[f. 60v] From the Upper House. First read. An act for the making the river of Thames navigable from Burcot in Oxfordshire to the city of Oxford.

The great business.

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. That his Majesty has professed that he is satisfied in conscience and honour, and that he will justify it with a war. He has quitted his own particular and resigned to the public the particulars. The securing of Ireland, the furnish[ing] to the Low Countries 1,000 men, to Ireland 4,000, for the navy x of the King's ships and x others. [Blank] It is of great importance that we presently declare our gift. If we be not very careful, we leave all our hopes dead in this place.

[SIR JOHN] ELIOT. That we speedily relieve.

[SIR THOMAS] EDMONDES moves that we may give his Majesty a competent sum for securing Ireland and relief [of] the Low Countries, which cannot be less than £300,000, and to think of an annual contribution for the maintenance thereof.

[SIR] MILES FLEETWOOD. That we contribute this day by subsidies and fifteens to this war.

[f. 61] [SIR GEORGE] MORE. His Majesty's desire is 6 subsidies, 12 fifteens. As his Majesty does seek assistance before he make a war, so we must see how we can pay before we make an offer. He wishes a conference may be had of the present occasions. 31 Eliz. there was 2 subsidies, 4 fifteens, which was the first precedent of two subsidies. He moves to consider what proportion may be used for Ireland, the navy and Low Countries, and thinks that 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens will be a good proportion.

[SIR JOHN] SAVILE. To take into consideration the necessity to do; second, the charge; thirdly, the means to effect it.

[SIR ROBERT] MANSELL. For that which is necessary, which must come from the King, from whence the preparation, and from thence the means. Our best war is against Spain. From him have we had our greatest wrong. It is a fleet that will secure us in all succeeding times, more profitable than 100,000 men. The Spaniards have been preparing during the treaties, we have been negligent. Our progress shall be with ease, pleasure.

He moves preparation be made against Spain if there be cause. The fleet with the charge of £25,000 will be of better use. 30 sail of merchantmen, 15 of his Majesty's ships, that will transport 20,000 [men]. 20,000 [men] in readiness besides the trained men. The younger brethren of gentlemen to be in the lists. [f. 61v] Between [£]3[00,000] or £400,000 for this will serve. That out of this there will be sufficient to secure Ireland.

[MR. EDWARD] ALFORD pursues Sir John Savile's motion. The King is discharged, considering he has thought not fit to oppress his subjects, and the people will say we are put in trust. Therefore, if we go not the right way, we are in fault. We are to think how that we shall give may be managed.

CHANCELLOR [EX]CHEQUER. The sound of 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens is fearful but [blank]. Moves to pass the question for that which may be thought fit for the present occasion, how much will serve. [Blank]

[f. 62] [SIR JAMES] PERROT. [Blank]

[SIR FRANCIS] SEYMOUR. First, to his Majesty's demand. 2 particulars: first, that it be not too heavy to his people; next, his caution that [blank]. He moves that if his Majesty please to make this a session, he would give one subsidy, two fifteens, and the papists 2 subsidies, 2 fifteens.

[MR. JOHN] PYM. Limitation of time. That all may be reduced to a committee of both Houses.

[SIR EDWARD] GILES. [Blank]

[SIR EDWARD] CONWAY. That we may say that we will, with the King's restrictions, we will [sic] give him 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens; and for the manner confer with the Lords.

[MR. WILLIAM] MALLORY moves that the question may be put which Sir John Savile propounded.

[SIR GEORGE] CHUDLEIGH. That between [£]200[,000] or [£]300,000 to be given. He would not have anyone under £5 land or [£10] goods pay one penny, [f. 62v] and that sum may be paid according as they stand in the King's book.

[SIR ROBERT] HARLEY. What is to be given and leave out the first if his Majesty make a declaration. We do order, then, that 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, and upon the declaration we will make an act for that which is needful for the present, and when we come again we will take account of that which shall be then received by our own treasurers.

[SIR ARTHUR] INGRAM. For matters of proportion, the King, Prince, we are all engaged. The best to fall upon three grounds and that by a committee of the whole House.

[SIR GEORGE] CHAWORTH. If the breach of the 2 treaties do conduce a war, he does not think 6 and 6 to be too much to be paid in time upon that occasion. He moves that 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens may be given for the present.

[MR. THOMAS] WENTWORTH. That we take care of that which issue out of the subject's purse [which] may be for the enterprise. 18 Ed. 3 the Parliament was called for advice in great matters and contribution was put into men's hand designed by the Parliament. He moves that before we pass an act, it may be seen the enterprise that it is to be employed in. He wishes that the plate in this action may be offered, and for this present 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens may be given and at other sessions as occasion shall be.

[f. 63] [SIR HENRY] MILDMAY. Our fears are of the quantity and precedent. For the first, the cause it may encourage. What is to be done for the present is the work of this day, which is best to be done by the committee of the whole House, which he moves for.

SIR JOHN WALTER. For what we shall give, he thinks fit 4 subsidies, which he conceives will be £300,000 besides the charge. First, that there may be pay for the soldiers; next, to maintain our advice; and lastly, that the ambassadors may inform their masters our free maintenance. For the better affecting this, the charge, both back, belly and children should be lessened. The deadness of commodities and death of our cattle has been occasioned for our neglect of religion, and he doubt[s] not but this being for God's cause, all will prosper.

[MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE. A consideration ought to precede the three things before named. From 31 Eliz. to 43, from 2 subsidies we went to 4; but before that there was never but one subsidy. He moves that 4 subsidies and 4 fifteens may be given for the present.

SIR THOMAS BELASYSE moves only to give two subsidies.

[f. 63v] [SIR HENRY] ANDERSON. We may content the King and people not in particulars but by question whether we are not content to satisfy the King, and then de modo we may have a committee of the whole House to debate of the manner.

[SIR] H[ENRY] VANE moves that 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens be passed by order and afterward that afterward [sic], according to the ability of the country, we pass it in act, such proportion as may be borne.

[SIR BAPTIST] HICKS moves that/

[MR. EDWARD] ALFORD. No man has disagreed to give. The last Parliament there could not be given any fifteens in respect of the poverty of the meaner sort. What cause have they since to grow richer. An order he does not think fit, it is not a parliamentary way. He moves that we may defer this to the afternoon.

[SIR EDWARD] COKE. The model must be seen before any can judge of the charge. That 3 clauses in the King's letter: subsidies or other means; the not overburdening his subjects; lastly, the granting of a session now. We are to propose 5 things: Ireland; our own coasts; our navy; the Low Countries; [f. 64] the fift[h], the recovery of the Palatinate. Our consideration is what we shall give. A subsidy of the laity £70,000, a fifteen £30,000, a subsidy of the clergy £20,000. The total demanded is £ 900,000.

18 Ed. 3 the Parliament [blank]. 42 Ed. 3 the King treated of peace with his subjects, they could not assent to peace; they gave a large contribution. 43 Ed. 3 the like. 6 H. 7 the King advised with the Commons of war and offered aid, but did desire the poor might be spared. 4 H. 8 the like. He would have the £900,000 into 3 parts. Mr. Treasurer's motion was for £300,000. He wishes as much may be given, but very few fifteens. The recusants are not called to any place of the commonwealth; whatsoever we have given, let the recusants [give] twice as much, convicted and notorious that have not gone to church within 6 months and those that go the Spanish ambassador's, double subsidies. This will serve for this time, and afterward we will be ready to go forward as occasion shall move.

[SIR EDWARD] WARDOUR. That if we shall/

[f. 64v] SOLICITOR. The question is how we may give the King satisfaction in his last demand. We have advised the breach of the treaties. If a war does follow, is it not for the honour of the King and us to assist him. The King has made it appear he is not able to undergo it. Shall not we not help it? We must. When we come to a quantum, we must resolve tantum, that way to give the King content. The poverty of the kingdom must not be paralleled with the necessity of the cause, which is religion. He moves that £300,000 may be given for the present. That we shall give 3 subsidies and 3 fifteens, 2 present subsidies, not double but single, and 2 fifteens about the end of May. For the rest of the demand, we would give the King assurance that at Michaelmas when we shall meet again, we will, if occasion be, go forward in the maintenance of the occasion.

[SIR CHRISTOPHER] HILDYARD. Two subsidies and two fifteens for the present, and at Michaelmas more some other way.

[SIR ROBERT] KILLIGREW moves that the proportion of arms and the charge in every place before named may be set down by mea[sure] of arms, and then shall we be able to make the offer.

[SIR] THOMAS LUCY. That we may retire and in the afternoon return.

[f. 65] [SIR THOMAS] JERMYN moves that we may have a civil fast and not return hence while [sic] we have done something, lest we do not, upon further premeditation, come worse prepared.

[MR. WILLIAM] RAVENSCROFT. That although/

[SIR CHARLES] MORRISON. That we may have the laws to go hand in hand with what shall be given.

[SIR HENRY] POOLE. That a committee may be in the afternoon.

[SIR JOHN] SAVILE. It is unreasonable to move the question and he did an ill office to the King that first moved it before it be full debated it [sic]. We may as well give too little as too much.

[SIR DUDLEY] DIGGES moves that we may go on to the question in the general.

[MR. JOHN] SELDEN. That no resolution be had before a committee have sat.

[SIR ROBERT] PHELIPS moves that it may be put off until tomorrow and that it be debated by a committee in the morning.

IX. DIARY OF JOHN PYM, NORTHAMPTONSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, FH/N/C/0050

[f. 32v]

19 Martii 1623

An act [blank] for sale of divers lands in Cambridgeshire of Edward Alcock.

Two several bills for the naturalization of Philip Burlamachi and Giles Vandeputt. Passed.

An act concerning probate of suggestions in case of prohibitions. Passed.

Upon the motion of SIR EDWIN SANDYS, by direction of the great committee for trade, it was ordered:

  • 1. That all corporations of [London] merchants should send 4 of each company to attend the committee upon Tuesday, to show cause why free liberty of trade should not be restored.
  • 2. That they should be enjoined to set down in writing the state of trade in point of decay and increase. For some trade, the more it increases the worse the reasons of that increase are. Decay the causes of the want of money.
  • 3. The officers of the Custom House to make a brief of the state of the customs for 4 years last past and a balance of the exportation and importation.
  • 4. The master and officers of the mint to certify what has been coined of late, how much bullion imported and how much of the bullion of the kingdom.

An act for making the river of Thames navigable to Oxford.

It was thought time now to betake ourselves to the business appointed for this day, the consideration of his Majesty's demand.

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD, who had twice before happily led the House, began thus. Mr. Speaker, I do not doubt but the King's answer is clearly understood by all this House, the rather because his Majesty has explained the doubtful parts of it by his 2nd thoughts, which are commonly the best and the surest in every man. For now he professes that he is resolved both in conscience and honour that the treaties may be broken and justified by a war, and that he will require our advice only in the manner of publishing it, which is an addition of honour and favour to us. So that the King stands ready to declare, only he expects from us an assurance proportional to the greatness of the work, wherein we are to acknowledge his Majesty's right interpretation and thankful acceptation [f. 33] of our last offer. For he confesses that the grant of a general assistance is more than many millions of subsidies, and by way of expression it is so indeed; for it is like a fountain which continually runs to supply every occasion that may happen, whereas a particular sun, though never so great, is but as a cistern which may be emptied and is without reparation in itself.

Yet for all this, the King in his wisdom knows that generals dwell too much in the air. We must descend to particulars or else execution can take no footing, whereupon he has made his demand; and because he will be out of suspicion of any ends, he has quitted his own particular and resigned it to the public. I believe everyone in this House does think his demands to be very great, and so do I. But let us consider that his Majesty does not desire it should be hastily levied, for he has limited no time; nay, he takes care the subject should not be overburdened by too speedy payment, so that the business be not hindered by too much delay. He only desires it should be presently declared, to give a countenance and a lustre to the action, that his friends may be encouraged and his enemies disheartened, which is a point of high import. For believe it, Mr. Speaker, matters of state are as much carried by reputation as by substance.

But let us fall to those particulars which we must necessarily pitch upon, and they are those which I have heretofore moved, that is:

  • [1.] The securing of Ireland, the strengthening of the forts within the kingdom, the setting out of a fleet.
  • [2.] The furnishing of the stores, which is a mixed thing with the other.
  • 3. And the assistance of the Low Countries.

Whether we cannot send less than 10[,000] or 12,000 men, 4,000 into Ireland, and for a fleet 10 of the King's ships and 20 others, will be no more than sufficient. A great part of the King's demand will be taken up in the charge, which we must presently go through or we may be overrun before Michaelmas. For the rest, I hold it fit we should make his Majesty such a round offer as may be worthy his declaration and not so poor an one as may render us contemptible to our enemies and unuseful to our friends. The manner of levying it I leave to the consideration of those who have been longer conversant in Parliaments than myself, having never been of any until the last. Yet thus much I see, that we may so limit it in time and qualify it in payment that shall be no greater burden to the subject than if it were not granted until our next session after Michaelmas or the other in the spring, and so secure it by putting it into the hands of committees of both Houses that it shall be still in our power to dispose of, for all this the King has already promised. But, Mr. Speaker, it is a point of extraordinary consequence that it be presently declared.

I beseech every man in this House to consider that what we give to this action, we give to our religion, to our [f. 33v] lives, to our fortunes. If the preservation of all these be anything to us, it is unseasonable, nay it is unprofitable, to be sparing of part when the whole is in danger. And to conclude, I will second a motion made by a worthy member of this House upon Wednesday, that what we do we may dispatch before our recess and not suffer a business of this importance to grow cold, for coldness is a degree of deadness, so that if we be not very careful, we may leave all our hopes dead and buried in this place.

The business suffered a very long agitation. Some spoke to the proportion of the gift, and the first that propounded a certainty was MR. TREASURER, of £300,000, wherein SIR GEORGE MORE seconded him that it might be raised by two subsidies and 4 fifteens.

Others spoke to the manner of our proceedings, which SIR JOHN SAVILE would have divided by three inquiries and to debate them in order:

  • 1. What was to be done?
  • 2. What the charge would be?
  • 3. The means of raising that charge.

Wherein he was seconded by MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD, SIR ARTHUR INGRAM, MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY and others, among which no doubt there were [those] who wished this order for the better perfecting and establishing of our counsels; and perchance there wanted not who in this variety affected delay or an opportunity of crossing that in some privative or subordinate question, which they would not oppose in the main.

SIR ROBERT MANSELL. The design must direct the preparation; the preparation, the charge; the charge, the manner of levying it. Spain is our enemy and to be prepared against him will require not only a fleet but an army well composed. To assist the Low Countries by sending men there will be to no purpose. We may do them more good and our enemies more hurt in other places. Spain, to his knowledge, has been in preparing ever since the first treaty. Our fleet, with the charge of £25,000, will be brought to the greatest use that ever it was and shall consist of no more than 30 sail of merchants and 15 of his Majesty's ships, which will be sufficient to transport 10,000 men, if there be occasion. Besides these ships, he would wish that 20,000 men with their arms may be in readiness. For all this, between [£]3[00,000] and £400,000 will be sufficient, and out of this preparation there may be always somewhat in readiness to secure Ireland.

MR. CHANCELLOR OF TH[E] EXCHEQUER. His Majesty was never clearer in anything than in this answer, neither to decline our counsels nor to leave himself free when we are engaged. The greatness of the cause so reflects upon us that neither our lives nor our fortunes can be dear until we have recovered our ancient honour. If the proportion of 6 subsidies and twelve fifteens be compared with the greatness of the affair, we shall not think it to exceed. Let us, therefore, pass the general question first and the[n] refer it to a committee to consider of the conditions, wherein that promise of his Majesty's [f. 34] is not to make peace or treaty without us is not to be forgotten. When all things are weighed together, the gift will be much lighter.

SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. Let us fulfil one part of his Majesty's demand concerning assistance, that we neglect [not] the other, which is our care of the people. First, consider whether the commonwealth be able to give such a sum. Second, whether it be requisite and to what end. Judgement and affection must go together. Our abilities are to limit our actions. His Majesty speaks of a war in the Palatinate, which is a thing of infinite charge and to us impossible. For other matters which concerns the security of this kingdom and of Ireland and of the assistance of our friends, one subsidy and two fifteens will be sufficient, with the arrearages due from the papists, for the levying whereof some present course may be taken.

SECRETARY CONWAY. The affairs of state were so between England and Spain that they could not join with any good success for us. Our danger was what matters stood in suspense. The Prince, the favourite, the Lords have declared themselves. The King professes he is satisfied in conscience. Shall we be afraid of the name of a sum, which until it be used, remains still at our own disposing? His Majesty's declaration will make all safe. The certainty of assistance must make way to that. Let us declare it clearly and roundly, whereby besides the benefit of the public, we shall satisfy the Prince's expectation and return a good reward to that great Lord who has taken much pains to bring matters to this pass.

After this ensued two motions, the first, by SIR GEORGE CHUDLEIGH, concerning the assessment of that which should be given for the ease of the poor, that none might be charged but men of £5 lands, or £10 goods.

The 2nd, by SIR ROBERT HARLEY, that we should make an order presently for the whole 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, of which so much should now be passed in an act as would be used this summer, whereof we might take account at Michaelmas and then pass the rest.

SIR GEORGE CHAWORTH. The treaties for the marriage and the Palatinate are at an end already. We need not purchase that which will be without us. But there is a third treaty, of peace and amity, which remains still in force, which restrains us from giving assistance to the Low Countries; neither do they need it, being able to subsist of themselves. Let us look to deliver the subject from grievances and oppression, and if we give anything, leave it to the disposing of the King and his ministers, who will be careful of the safety of the kingdom. The poverty of the country will not suffer us to do all. And if we give the King but a third part of his demand, we must expect from him but a third of our desires.

This speech, if there had been bad humours [f. 34v] enough in the House, might have done some hurt, but it made no impressions which were not taken off by MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH, SIR H[ENRY] MILDMAY and SIR JOHN WALTER, who, after he had agreed to 4 subsidies, added these reasons:

  • 1. The encouragement of the persons to be employed.
  • 2. That we might make good our own offer.
  • 3. That foreign ambassadors might write to their masters how ready the English subjects are to maintain this cause.

And to take away that objection of the poverty of the country, let us, said he, restrain our expenses, abate the portion of our children, eat and drink in wood, and withal consider how it has been with us since we withdrew our help from those of our own religion, and not doubt but God will multiply that to us again which we shall bestow in his cause. We have been heretofore honourable and are now grown contemptible. Let us remember whose offspring we are and endeavour to make our reputation equal to that of our ancestors.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE, after recital of the grants to King Edward 6, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth, in his conclusion, renewed the device of declaring all 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens presently and passing them hereafter if there should be occasion, and was therein seconded by SIR H[ENRY] VANE, but opposed by SIR EDWARD COKE that it was without example and unlike[ly] the King would be satisfied with nominal, but with real subsidies. And having cast up his Majesty's demand by these proportions, the lay subsidy £70,000, the clergy £20,000, 2 fifteens £60,000, it came to £900,000, whereof he consented to give a third part to be passed presently by way of subsidy without fifteens for ease of the poor.

MR. SOLICITOR did not approve the naming any sum certain, but wished we might now pass 3 subsidies and 3 fifteens with an intimation of further supply when we should be called together again, as there shall be occasion.

There was not much of importance more spoken nor any conclusion.

To a motion of rising, SIR THOMAS JERMYN replied that in the beginning of the Parliament, we did desire a spiritual fast. We might now do well to make a civil fast, for he would fain see this matter at an end, that the Spanish ambassadors might truss up their portable goods and be gone.

The resolution was put off until tomorrow morning.

X. DIARY OF SIR WALTER EARLE, BL, ADD. MS 18,597

[f. 92]

Friday, the 19th of March

Bill for naturalizing [Philip] Burlamachi. Passed the House.

Bill for naturalizing [Giles] Vandeputt. Passed the House.

Bills concerning hospitals, alienations, tenants of crown lands, drunkenness, women, jeofails, probat[e] of suggestions, Wadham College, purveyance, Burlamachi and Vandeputt sent up.

SIR EDWIN SANDYS'S report from the committee of trade. The committee desires that the several [London] companies may send 4 of each company of merchants to attend the committee on Tuesday to show reasons why trade should not be enlarged and to rectify the state of their trade and the reasons of the increase or decrease. That the officers of the customs may certify the estate of exportation and importation for the last four years. That the officers of the mint may certify what money has been coined since the last Parliament.

Ordered accordingly.

The debate of the great business.

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD'S speech taken as he spoke it, being the first concerning the King's [f. 92v] demand of particular aid.

[f. 94] SIR JOHN ELIOT. We know how far the adversary has prevailed, non tam potentia sua, quam negligentia nostra. The Prince's honour, our religion, our estates and all lie at stake. Let us therefore hasten the remedy.

[f. 94v] SIR THOMAS EDMONDES. Only two things stagger us:

  • 1. The greatness of the sum.
  • 2. The impossibility of levying it.

War is often carried as much by reputation as by power. Motion to supply his Majesty with that which may suffice for the present for Ireland, the navy, the Low Countries, which cannot be less than £300,000. And to declare ourselves for an annual contribution toward the maintaining of a war.

SIR GEORGE MORE. Before we give, see how to make it good, and not dare verba and no more. Look back to what has been done upon like occasion. When the difference grew between Spain and us in Queen Elizabeth['s time], 2 subsidies. In the 39 year, 3 subsidies and 6 fifteens; in the 43 year, 4 subsidies and 8 fifteens. Fit to consider what will serve the present occasions mentioned, 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens.

SIR JOHN SAVILE. Fit to consider:

  • 1. What of necessity now we are to do.
  • 2. The charge of doing of it.
  • 3. The means to perform it.

SIR ROBERT MANSELL. The safest way to make a war is to do it against our greatest enemy. The charge of maintaining 10,000 men in the Low Countries, being employed in a fleet will secure both them and us not only for the present but for the future also. [f. 95] To look to time past. When they began to treat with us, they meant to deceive us. They have been all this while preparing, I know it. If we be ready in time, for 7 years after we shall manage the business with ease. To prepare a fleet. We have a fleet that with £25,000 will be of greater use than ever any fleet was to a state. This fleet shall be but of 30 sail at most. Another preparation of 15 of his Majesty's ships, which will carry over 2,000 men. These men and their arms provided. This will be done with [£]3[00,000] or £400,000.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. The greatest matter that ever I spoke in. I wish we might so advise that we blemish not that which we have done. Good to follow the method formerly proposed. Look into ancient precedents as in E. 1['s] time.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER. His Majesty never in anything clearer than in this action. The King intends not to decline, but only to foresee how. He requires nothing but what is agreeable to the state of his subjects. Whatsoever is given is gained by this, otherwise we cannot secure our lives, our estates, etc., [f. 95v] repair the honour of our nation. A committee to consider:

  • 1. Of the necessities present.
  • 2. Of the means to supply.
  • 3. The cautions.

SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. The sum proposed is great, and it is fit to know to what ends we shall give that we do give, where the war shall be and with whom. His Majesty has told us plainly that it is the Palatinate the war shall be for, which if it be so, the difficulties will be so great as it will not be unworthy the consideration of this House. Ireland, the navy and the Low Countries would be provided for. For this I would give 1 subsidy and 2 fifteens, and recusants to pay double subsidies.

SECRETARY CONWAY. The King now makes no dainty to say the Spaniard affects the monarchy of the world. Shall we be afraid of the name of a sum of money, which is but a voice? Resolve to give 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, and regulate it as we think fit. Cannot we make a law as safe as those whereby we enjoy our estates?

MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY. If I were not in expectation to meet here again, I would not give a farthing.

SIR GEORGE CHUDLEIGH. For the supply of these occasions a new way. None under £5 to pay anything to this, and he that is set at £5 to pay £5.

SIR GEORGE CHAWORTH. Besides the breach of the two treaties [f. 96] there is a third breach, and that is the breach of the peace.

MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. So long as the amity with Spain continues, there will be a vastation of our friends abroad. That force must have resistance. This will require no small sum of money. We are, no doubt, willing to raise it. But take care that nothing issue out but it shall go this way. A precedent, 18 E. 3, great danger then in regard of France. The Lords and Commons persuaded the King in consideration of a good cause, and in God putting his confidence, to go over in person. Two men appointed to give order for the disposing the money, which was but 2 fifteens. They move the King that neither for money or words he would be diverted.

SIR HENRY MILDMAY. If we hurt not ourselves with our fears, we shall do well. The sum is able to affright any that is acquainted with the state of the country. A committee of the whole House.

SIR JOHN WALTER. The occasions:

  • 1. The recovery of the Palatinate.
  • 2. To withstand the ambitious desires to enlarge, etc.

To this may be added the cause of religion.

I will propose 4 subsidies, which will be about £300,000:

  • 1. To encourage those that shall undertake.
  • [f. 96v] 2. To make good our promise to his Majesty.
  • 3. That the foreign ambassadors that lie as spies may send word what/

As for the poverty of the country, it is true that God has laid a curse on our cattle since we withdrew our hand from assisting the Protestant cause. I doubt not but if we repair this, God will bless us again. It is my zeal to God's glory.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. A consideration to precede all those 3 particulars formerly mentioned. The King says if the 6 subsidies, etc. be, he will declare himself. This may imply that on the contrary, etc., if the King reserve himself, where are we? Consider it is better to fall into the hands of England and [sic] Spain, why should we stand on a little nicety? In the statute for subsidies 7 E. 6, a subsidy given; in Queen Mary's time, it was released. In Queen Elizabeth's time, but one subsidy at a time until 21 [sic]. In 21 [sic] Eliz., 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens. It came after to 3 subsidies and after to 4. In 39 the Spanish navy, in 42 Ireland invaded. We had last a Parliament for subsidies and no laws, we may now have laws and subsidies both. We may draw an act for 4 subsidies and 8 fifteens. This goes not beyond precedents. Pass some of them in the present session and the rest in the sessions ensuing. A general committee.

[f. 97] SIR HENRY VANE. For reputation abroad, 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens passed by the question, and an order only; then passed 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens or more or less by an act. Do this with such an exception in the act that if the wars cease, the subsidies shall not be levied.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. To the question, not fit to go to the question as yet. In H. 8['s] time, much ado to get men to engage themselves to continue a war, but refused. To make any such order may be a dangerous precedent.

SIR EDWARD COKE. A man must know the proposition before he goes to building. The work will be this, mark the clauses in the King's last speech:

  • 1. Subsidies or other means.
  • 2. The subjects not overburdened.
  • 3. He will have a session now and about Michaelmas another and at spring another.

5 things the work of, etc.:

  • 1. The securing of Ireland.
  • 2. Defence of our own coasts.
  • 3. Preparation of our navy.
  • 4. Joining with the Low Countries.
  • 5. The recovery of the Palatinate.

I would have these 5 things specified in the act of subsidy.

The 2nd consideration is the support. A subsidy of the laity, £70,000; a fifteen, near £30,000; a subsidy of the clergy, £20,00[0]. [f. 97v] All England has not so much as the 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens, it being £900,000, almost a million. For precedents vide the [Parliament] Roll, 18 E. 3, num. 7 et 8. The Commons were required. They did desire the King to have a war, but with caution. Another 42 E. 3, the King inclined to peace, the Commons and Lords made several answers. They could not yield to peace as being dishonourable and prejudicial. Another, 6 H. 7, the King advised with the Commons about the war with France, but desired the poorer sort might be spared, that is, the fifteens. Another 5 [sic] H. 8. No parliamentary course to grant nominative subsidies. But divide the £900,000 into three parts, which is £300,000.

Now the question is how this will be levied. As few fifteens as possible because of the poorer sort. The recusants have lived securely and closely, let them give double subsidies. This will serve for the present. Now if occasion shall serve afterward, we shall be as ready to satisfy the King's demand as now.

MR. SOLICITOR. Shall the poverty of the kingdom be disputed of when the whole of our estates are concerned? £300,000 may be near about a good proportion. Fifteens and subsidies grow lower and lower.

[f. 98] SIR THOMAS JERMYN. I desire to see the Spanish ambassadors rid out of the kingdom. If this go on, we shall have little use of them. Besides, there are among us those that look one way and row another. When they first are gone, these will not hold their heads so high.

SIR CHARLES MORRISON. Easy granting but hard levying of subsidies. Fit to have a committee of the whole House.

SIR JOHN SAVILE. No fit time to put this to the question. What if it should be overruled? There may be danger in giving too little as well as in giving too much.

SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. To put it now to the question very unfit, how many subsidies. His Majesty's desire is to know how confident he may be of assistance. There may be danger of the King's being borne in hand that the kingdom is poorer than it is. The kingdom is rich enough to defend itself.

SIR ROBERT PHELIPS'S motion for a committee of the House.

Ordered to debate it further in a general committee.

XI. JOURNAL OF SIR SIMONDS D'EWES, BL, HARL. MS 159

[f. 82]

March 19, Friday

A bill for the naturalizing of Philip Burlamachi. Passed.

A bill for the naturalizing of Giles Vandeputt. Passed.

An act concerning probates of suggestion in case of prohibition. Passed.

An act for further reformation of jeofails, errors in pleading. They were reformed Henrici 8vi 320 and Elizabethae 180, and now further passed.

[f. 82v] Upon report from the grand committee for trade, it was moved that all the companies of merchants [of London] should send 4 of every company the Tuesday following, where the whole House was desired to be at the committee, to know:

  • 1. Their reasons why trade should not be enlarged.
  • 2. Whether trade have increased or decreased since the last Parliament.
  • 3. What reasons they can give for the decay of money.

It was also moved that their officers of the customs might come in and give an account how the balance stands between importation and exportation; also that the officers of the mint might come in and make known how much money has been coined since the last Parliament, of foreign bullion been [sic] imported and what from within the kingdom; also that the Merchant Adventurers should send in their patent of Elizabeth 280.

Then came in agitation the main business of the King's demands of 6 subsidies and 12 fifteens for the war.

SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. He doubted not but the King's answer was understood of all, the rather because it had been explained by one so near him as his son; and now his Majesty professes in conscience to be resolved and [sic] honour to break the treaties and to justify them by war, so that he is ready on his part and now only expects us what we will do, without whom he cannot proceed. We are to acknowledge his interpretation of what we have done already when he said the hearts of his subjects were more worth than millions of subsidies. The heart is the fountain, the rest is but as the cistern; but we must not continue in generals but descend to particulars. We [f. 83] may think his demands great, but he gives us time for raising it, so that it be presently declared to the encouraging of our friends and the disheartening of our enemies, for matters of state proceeds as much by reputation as substance.

These things are presently considerable: the securing of Ireland; the repairing of the forts; the manning out of the fleet; and the assistance of the Low Countries. 4,000 men to be sent into Ireland, a fleet of 10 of the King's ships and 20 others, and 10,000 men to be sent into the Low Countries; and for the rest, make such an offer unto the King as is worthy his declaration, as may revive our friends and not make us contemptible to our enemies. The manner I leave to you, but it must be done so as neither the subject be too much oppressed with the sudden raising of money nor the main action miscarry by delay. A committee of both Houses may be required to dispose of particulars. But it is of extraordinary importance presently to declare what we now give is for our religion, our lives, the safety and honour of our King and kingdom. It is in vain to save a part and hazard all. Be careful now or all our hopes are dead and buried.

SIR JOHN ELIOT urged our present necessity and our future inconvenience. Between Scylla and Charybdis; we are poor and cannot give much and yet not to give were to lose all. At first we were dejected and, mistaking a part of the King's speech, we disliked the whole, but now it is explained let us consider how it imports us. Spain grows non tam potentia sua, quam nostra negligentia, as our Father said of the devil. Consider how our religion was at stake and engaged (God grant it be never so again), our Prince in danger and the honour of our nation. Though we be poor, yet Spain has been our Indies and our magazine. Ergo, hasten our answer [f. 83v] to his Majesty that he may settle his resolution. And if we take not the time now, we may doubt never to have the like occasion.

SIR THOMAS EDMONDES would not use arguments to persuade us, because nothing so much concerned us. Only the vast sum deters us. But it is the greater glory upon such exigencies to surmount difficulty. Give some large contribution, so draw on his Majesty here and engage our friends abroad. He moved for a competent sum to support the charge and supposed £300,000,000 [sic] would do well for the present, and declare what annual assistance we would give, and so honour the work and crown our own affection.

SIR GEORGE MORE. As the King said, before he made war, he would consider the charge; so before we give, we must consider how it will rise; and he moved to give 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens.

SIR JOHN SAVILE would have us rove in generals, but take into consideration 3 things:

  • 1. What is necessary to be done?
  • 2. What the charge thereof will amount to?
  • 3. The means to raise it.

SIR ROBERT MANSELL seconded him and dissented from him that spoke first in that it was not the fleet but a special fleet, and an army well prepared, which would ease both the Low Countries and us. Spain had an intent to abuse us at first and has practised it ever since. Ergo, prepare for him in time. Make ready 15 of the King's ships and 30 sail of others to take in 20,000 men at all times, which should still be in a readiness; and the charge of that would be between [£]3[00,000,000] and £400,000,000 [sic].

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. This being the greatest matter we ever spoke of, he would not have us blemish what we have done already. He seconds Sir John Savile's motion. Thinks that the King's speech [f. 84] that [sic] can well be understood at once or twice reading, because he speaks like a wise and politic king. He puts the charge on us, and so will the people if we do not as we should. His motion was to proceed punctually and add one point more to those 3: how what we give shall be managed.

SIR RICHARD WESTON clears the King of all distrust we may have in him and shows that his doubts were not to deter us but only to foresee how he might go through with what he undertakes, and that he did it with much moderation and desires but what is agreeable to the state of his people and the cause now in hand. And shall not what we do reflect only upon ourselves, our honour's name and lives, but we must do it so as may satisfy our duties and opinions also, not scantly lest we dishearten our friends. The sum indeed of 6 subsidies is fearful, but the greatness and goodness of the cause, the King's honour and our safety, requires it. His motion was to pass by general questions not for so much but for what will supply the present necessity, then refer it to a committee to consider of the particular charge and time to raise it. To make use of the King's promise that the charge shall not endure no longer than the cause requires. Not to give it until he declare himself that he make no peace without us. That it be disbursed by our own treasurers. This will both satisfy the King and affect our desires.

SIR JAMES PERROT would have us either yield to give all or give the King other satisfaction. Sums indeed are large except they be moderated [f. 84v] by time. He propounds, ergo, whether these 6 subsidies be sufficient for all; second, would tender to the King not to enter any other treaty (this once broken) that may be prejudicial to our religion.

SIR FRANCIS SEYMOUR. Generals give satisfaction to neither side, ergo must propound particulars. The King demands much. We must consider whether ever so much was given and whether the people be able to give it, and to what end it is given. He limits our advice to our abilities and that he would have us do. Demands where the wars lies [sic] and with whom. That of the Palatinate not fit for the consideration of this House, but likes well of the securing of Ireland, repairing the forts, assisting our friends, and so moves, if the King will make this a session, to give one subsidy and 2 fifteens, and the papists to do it double.

MR. [JOHN] PYM said we were gone some degrees to our deliverance, God forbid we should relapse. Consider what is in danger and see whether that which is spared be saved or no. So he moved to revive Sir Richard Weston's motion, with all his particular limitations — if, if, if.

SIR EDWARD GILES. The subject is as willing as may be; but how it is to be done, there is the question. He revives Sir John Savile's motion, and would give freely and bountifully.

MR. SECRETARY CONWAY. We are to do something that the King may declare himself. Ergo, do that and leave off the particulars. What would we not have given formerly, and why do we then stick now? The King formerly would not so much as have us talk of the treaties or say that the King of Spain [f. 85] aims at the monarchy of the world. He thought well of the match and that all pieces would have suited to it, but now he declares himself to us to be otherwise affected; the Prince is otherwise; so are the Lords. Can these things be knit together again? No, there is no need of fear from them. Ergo, what shall we fear? The name of money? Why, that is but a voice. His motion was to give it all, but in a regulated manner. If we be doubtful of the King, we may warrant ourselves by a law here passed and say, when your Majesty declares yourself according to our advice, then we will do this and this. Set it not light, but give the King the whole with fitting limitation that he may declare himself.

[MR. WILLIAM] MALLORY wonders of the difference in the House. He desires to sit and make good our advice, and revives Sir John Savile's motion.

SIR GEORGE CHUDLEIGH thought it not proper to dispute of the particulars of war. The King knows the war is weighty and demands much. Ergo, would have us propound a good sum and leave it to his consideration. Between [£]2[00,000,000] and £300,000,000 [sic] to be raised a new way. He would not have subsidies descend to the lower sort of subsidy men, not to any under £5 land or goods, and he thought that half the subsidy arose from those inferior men. Would, ergo, have us come to a round sum for men above that rate, and so propounded 5 subsidies.

SIR ROBERT HARLEY leaves out Sir John Savile's first question and aims at something to be done to make the King declare. We know how to have him to declare, and we desire it. Consider, ergo, whether it be greater that the King desires [f. 85v] of us or we of him. He would have him send out to his allies. And moves for the 6 subsidies when the King has declared. Desires to make an act for one part of it, and at Michaelmas take account how it is spent and give the rest.

SIR ARTHUR INGRAM thinks every man willing to give, but the sum and manner of giving it is not yet thought upon. Would have a ground laid what to do and then to do it. Moves for a committee to consider the 3 propositions of Sir John Savile.

SIR GEORGE CHAWORTH would have us free ourselves from enemies at home first, extortion in fees, etc. Thinks the Low Countries needs no aid because Ostend, one town as little as Westminster, held out so long. He followed a new way and desired to be excused.

MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. That as he that spoke last followed no man, so none would follow him; and was ashamed to hear one talk of fees when the debate came about Spain. He has more children than acres of ground, yet would eat all his days in wooden spoons rather than this cause should fall. He moved about the calling in our plate, and desired to offer a good round sum now and the rest hereafter.

SIR JOHN WALTER would not enter into particulars, but thought fit to propound 4 subsidies, first, to make good our offer to the King; second, to encourage such as shall be engaged in the war that they shall not be forsaken; third, that foreign ambassadors might see us forward in this cause. Though our country be poor, yet abridge ourselves of all rather than this cause want. God has not blessed us in our cattle and land of late years, perhaps because we have been so cool in so good a cause. Ergo, do something heartily [f. 86] that God may bless us again and revive our honour from the dust.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE propounds, first, that no general terms will serve. Urges those words of the King's: "if this may be done, I will declare". The King is a great lover of peace. If we do not yield, he falls back again, which take into consideration, and choose rather to fall into the arms of England than Spain. Until Elizabeth 31 there was never but one subsidy granted at a time, then they gave 2 subsidies and 4 fifteens. Elizabeth 35 they gave 3 subsidies. Elizabeth 43 they gave 4 upon great occasions. But since ours are greater, his motion was to give 4 now and the rest hereafter.

SIR HENRY VANE seconds [Mr. John] Glanville. Desires us so to proceed that not only the King but the Prince may not be distasted with this day's work, in whom it lies to make Parliaments frequent, which makes us happy. He would not have us divulge the poverty of the country, but would have us pass 6 subsidies by order, and levy them as the people can give them.

SIR BAPTIST HICKS said we were at stake but, God be thanked, not at that stake the enemy would have us. He ran much upon the old conceit, deux ace non possunt, etc.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD observes that none disagree from giving. But he would have it done so as the King might have as well the hearts as the purses of his subjects. His motion to defer all further dispute until the afternoon.

SIR EDWARD COKE falls upon that that the King specifies, subsidies and other ways. Those, he thinks, fit to be thought of. Tells us that a lay subsidy is £70,000, a subsidy of the clergy £20,000, [f. 86v] a fifteen £30,000 (whereof one 8th part is deducted in fees before it comes to the King, that thought not fitting). 6 subsidies comes, then, to £900,000. He thinks all England is not able to give it. And we being now in statu deliberativo, desires first to know an posset fieri. Yet would give a real and not a nominal subsidy; would divide it into 3 parts and give the King now £300,000. He said it sounded well, but he would have as few fifteens as might be. And for subsidies, he would have the papists give double. He considered our parallel case Edwardi 3i anno 38v0.

SIR EDWARD WARDOUR would not enter into particulars but would have us declare that we will give as need requires, and that is no more than we have done already.

SIR ROBERT HEATH. A war is better than a dissembling, dangerous peace, but we must not desire the King to declare it and then leave him unprovided. We must give, for our rest is set up upon it. The tantum and the time both must come from the King, whose the business is, though we and all we have been enwrapped in it. The kingdom is able to bear it if we take time for it. The money goes not out of the kingdom but is returned and exchanged at home. He would not have the papists double. He would draw better blood from them or reject or reject [sic] their double subsidies. He moved to declare ourselves for to give 3 subsidies and 3 fifteens, 2 of which, with their fifteens, to be gathered in May, the other towards Michaelmas; and at Michaelmas, when we meant to do as we are able and the cause requires, and so likewise again at the spring if need be. And [f. 87] wished that we had a spring to supply his Majesty withal in this behalf.

SIR THOMAS JERMYN was glad to see the business so advanced, and moved, since we could not have a spiritual fast, that we might yet make this day a civil fast and sit it out until we have brought the business to some conclusion. He would fain see the Spanish ambassadors gone; and this resolved they had nothing to do here.

SIR JOHN SAVILE would not debate the poverty of the people. Desires to advise further and be sure we give not too little. And declines the putting of it to the question what should be done by all means.

SIR DUDLEY DIGGES thinks the disability of the kingdom thus spoken of will occasion some ill-affected persons to do ill offices between the King and the House, and ergo would have it presently resolved in the general we will give, leaving the particulars to further consideration.

A motion to rise and defer all further dispute until the next morning to a committee of the whole House in the House.

SIR JOHN SAVILE and MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD spoke twice, but one spoke to the order of the House and the other by way of explanation, which is allowed, else not.