House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 07 May 1624

Veneris, 7 Maii

Edwards.

KNIGHTS and Burgesses of Cornewayle and Devon, to be added to Edwards' Committee.

Scandalous Ministers.

Bill againstscandalous Ministers, - Monday Afternoon, Two Clock. All, that will come, to have Voice. - In the Court of Wards.

Ryvers.

Mr. Solicitor reporteth Ryvers' Bill, with Amendments; which twice read. - Engrossetur.

Sir C. Caesar.

Mr. Brooke reporteth Sir Ch. Caesar's Bill, without Amendments.

Poor.

L. 1a. An Act for the better Relief of the Poor.

Relief of Creditors.

Mr. Whitakers reporteth the Bill for Relief of Creditors against such, as die in Execution.

Vanlore's Estate.

L. 3a. An Act to make good a Conveyance of the Manor of Little Mondon, in the County of Hertford, by Sir P. Vanlore Knight, and Sir Ch. Caesar Knight, &c.

- Upon Question, passed.

Burneby.

L. 3a. - Burneby.

Upon the Question of Passage, the House divided :

The I went out:

Tellers for the Yea, Sir Francis Barrington, Sir Ed. Mountagew :

For the Noe, Sir H. Poole, Sir H. Anderson :

With the Yea, 97.

With the Noe, 104. - Rejected.

Grievances - Bp. of Norwich.

Sir Edw. Coke reporteth from the Committee of Grievances, the Complaint against the Bishop of Norwich. -

Not heard by them ; yet he had a Copy of the Petition, and Certificate. - The Charge, grievous and strange. - That, there being 34 Parishes in the City, the Bishop, by his Apparitor, sent for the Ministers, and inhibited their Preaching in the Morning on the Sabaoth-day; requiring them to come to the Cathedral Church, situate at one End : - Impossible for all the People to hear.

2ly, Crucifixes, Images, followed. A Dove upon the Font, fluttering over the Water, Images set up ; and the Bishop, coming into the Church, blessed him, that set them up. - The not observing the King's ecclesiastical Laws, a Matter fit for our Cons ... -

18 Ed. III. n. 32. the Commons complained against the Majorities, for putting Tradesmen into the Churches; whereby the People wanted spiritual Food. -

50o Ed. III. in bono Parliamento, the Commons complained of the Pope's Dispensations, Non-residents, &c.

- The wicked City of Rome. -

17o R. II. n. 43. 11 H. IV. 3o H. VI. Complaint for Want of Food.

3. Extortion. By the Canons, and Archbishop's Orders, 24s. 8d. for Institutions: 3l. 5s. now taken. 6l. 12 s. taken for St. John's Church. No Fee for holy Orders, yet now taketh 29 s. and 30 s. - 6s. 8d. for licensing a Curate, where should be but 5s. - Extortions by Ordinaries enquirable before Justices in Eyre.

4. No Institutions registered, to the great Prejudice of Mens Inheritances. - 48 Ed. III. a Complaint against the Bishop of Hereford, for not living within his Diocess. Except he be in the King's Service, every Bishop ought to live within his Diocess. -

This a Case of great Consequence. The Committee thought fit to transmit it to the Lords.

Upon Question, without One Negative, this to be transmitted to the Lords.

Sir Edw. Coke to deliver this above : For which a Conference to be desired To-morrow Morning.

An Acknowlegement, enjoined by the Bishop, read.

Sir Tho. Wentworth: - The Circumstance of Time much, to do this, when we groan under the Insolency of Papists.

Resolved, That excommunicating those, which kneeled not, when they came into the Church, towards the East, and this, of his own Authority, without any Canon or Constitution to warrant it -

Sir Tho. Jermyn: - The principal Heads of this Complaint may be set down in Writing, and to be presented to the House To-morrow Morning. - Ordered.

Courts of Justice - Ly. Darcy's Case.

Sir Ro. Phillippes reporteth, from the Court [b] of Justice, Courts of Three Things:

1. The Petitions: 2. The Proceedings upon Justice - ^ them: 3ly,The Committee's Direction concerning them. -

Now Two Petitions : One, from the Lady Darcy, concerning an Advowson appendant to a Manor of her Son's.

- That she obtained a Grant, from the Court of Wards, to herself and Ge. Wilmore. That in August 1621, the Incumbent died ; so the Church thereby void. That she thereupon presented her Clerk to the Ordinary; but found the Church full of Dr. Graunt, presented by the Lord Keeper. She, by Advice, sought a Quare impedit; which denied her by the Cursitor, as he said, by Lord Keeper his Direction. She petitioned the King for Right, but obtained it not. That sithence hereby her Presentation lost, her Son's Inheritance endangered, prayeth Remedy here; it being a Cause of great Consequence, in point of Example to all the Subjects. She had a Grant of the Advowson from the Court of Wards; and alleged by her Counsel, the Court of Wards no [c] Right to grant it.- -

On the other Part alleged, this was no Disherison of the Child ; and that the Court of Wards had no Power to grant Presentations in this Case. -

Considered, whether an original Writ might be stayed.

- In Case of Revell, and Peacocke, and Lady Mordant, Quare impedits denied by Lord Ellesmere. -

At the Committee agreed, to refer it to the next Sitting of the Committee, whether the Matter could be accommodated between the Lord Keeper, Dr. Grant, and the Lady. -

At which Sitting, Two Things presented to the Committee: 1. A Petition from Dr. Grant; wherein Four Offers : 1. To go to a Trial, without taking Advantage of Lapse : 2ly, To pass an Act here, at his own Costs, to put her in State, as before the Six Months: 3ly, To have Three or Four Judges, chosen by her, to hear and determine the Business; and to yield, if they . . for her: 4ly, To have any Six Lawyers of the House, whereof Sir Edw. Coke, Mr. Noy, Sir Jo. Walter, and Mr. Speaker, to be Four; and to be bound by their Opinion. -

The Lord Keeper's Answer, of Two Parts : 1. For the Denial of the Quare impedit; would not justify, but extenuate, his Proceedings therein; desiring, it might be conceived, there was a Difference between Chancery and Court of Wards. - Then no good Correspondency between the Judges of those Courts: Presently after his Coming to the Place of Lord Keeper: And doubted, the Right of the Chancery might be stolen away by this Course. - That Sight of some Precedents made him think it might have been done; yet, finding the Opinion of this House to the contrary, he had offered her as good a Living, to get a Grant thereof from the King. That this was the first, and should be the last, of his thus proceeding. Thanked the House for their Inclination to think it only an Error in him. -

At the next Sitting, the Lady refused all Dr. Grant's Offers. The Committee thereupon considered the Lady's Interest in particular: The House [a] thought fit to refer her to a Bill; with Comfort to her, to afford her the best Furtherance they could, if she, by Advice, preferred a Bill. -

For Help of the general Inconvenience to the Publick by this, after Dispute, the House [b] thought fit to refer it to the House, without any Opinion, on One Part, or other.

Mr. Brooke: - A Market overt of Law in the Common Place: A Shop of Justice in Cancellaria. Denying of a Fine, or Recovery, in the Common Pleas, Injustice: Denying an original Writ in Cancellaria Injustice too; for keepeth me from having Justice. This Error much extenuated by my Lord Keeper's Offers. The Affection, by which done, maketh the Error greater, or less. The Lord Keeper conceived, the Court of Wards had encroached upon the Chancery : He thought to right himself by this Course of denying the Quare impedit. We cannot transmit any to the Lords, without first giving a Judgment upon him here. - Not to do thus for One single Offence.

Sir J. Perrott: - The Fault great: Where extenuated by Ignorance; - done at his first Coming into his Place; - ignorantia juris non excusat. -

The Excuse, by Reason of the Difference between both Courts, and the Judges thereof, doth aggravate, not extenuate, the Offence; because, in a Case concerning himself, he ought to have been more wary. -

For the Excuse, that this Error is single: - Hath heard, there are other Cases, besides this, where Lord Keeper hath denied a Quare impedit, or Non omittas. - To have this examined. -

That there be other Petitions against him: Mrs. Thomas' Petition; whereby her Jointure decreed for Payment of her Son's Debts: And Fulliam's Petition. - To have these first heard; and to have a Committee to examine these Things.

Sir Tho. Hobby: - First to right the Wrong, then to punish the Fault. First to have the Bill read.

Mr. Ch. Price: - Perceiveth no Corruption, nor ill Intention, in the Lord Keeper. - It was in Maintenance of the Jurisdiction of his Court. - The Lord Keeper young, when he came in. - Acquitteth the Lord Keeper of any ill Intention.

Mr. Strowde, Mr. Pymme, Mr. Smyth. -

Mr. Solicitor: - Conceiveth, the Lord Keeper's Answer reasonable. Thinketh this an Injury to the Lady. - Just to repair this. The Wrong was, to deny her the Writ, which the Means to recover her Right; - But whether her Title, in respect of the Lapse, were good, or not, thinks not so clear. - That the Lord Keeper offered to mediate with the King, for granting the Inheritance again to the Heir, without his Charge. -

For the Commonwealth : A Bill already in the House, to rectify this for the Time to come. -

For the Example: All Men subject to Error. This a Question between the Two Courts. Few Grantees, from the Court of Wards, have had the Benefit of Presentation. Divers Precedents in this Kind, both by Lord Chancellor, and other Judges,

Mr. Gewyn: - The Offence great; aggravated, by the Lord Keeper's persisting, after Petition upon Petition ; after the King's Letters to him, to do Justice; after the Signification from the King's learned Counsel, that it was fit he should grant. This an Offence against the great Charter, which our Inheritance : and against the Trust the King putteth into his Hands. - To transmit this to the Lords.

Mr. Alford: - To respite this, till we see, how the other Complaints against the Lord Keeper will succeed; and then to proceed, as Cause shall be.

Ly. Darcy.

Darcy.

L. 1a. An Act to -

L. 2a. - Committed to Mr. Treasurer,Chancellor Exchequer, Sir Edw. Coke, Chancellor Duchy, Sir Tho. Wentworth, Sir Francis Barrington, Mr. Wentworth, Mr. Taylor, Sir Jo. Stradling, Sir Jo. Walter, Sir Jo. Savyle, Mr. Howard, Sir Guy Palmes, Mr. Alford, Sir Ro. Cooke, Mr. Noye, Sir Wm. Masham, Mr. John Drake, Sir Edw. Gyles, Sir Tho. Hobby, Sir W. Earle, Mr. Smyth, Mr. Gewyn, Sir H. Poole, Mr. Wandesford, Sir Tho. Cheeke, Mr. Brereton, Sir Tho. Barrington, Mr. Solicitor, Sir M. Fleetewood, Sir J. Perrott: - To-morrow, Seven Clock, Court of Wards.

Apothecaries.

Mr. Solicitor moveth for Saturday, for the Apothecaries. - Agreed.