Sabbati, 2 Julii;

Decimo Gulielmi 3tii.

Prayers.

Answers to Addresses.

MR. Speaker reported, That he, with the House, did Yesterday attend his Majesty, with their Addresses: And that, to the First Address, his Majesty was pleased to answer to this Effect;

Gentlemen,

I will take care, that what is complained of may be prevented, and redressed, as you desire.

And that, to the Second Address, his Majesty was pleased to answer to this Effect;

Gentlemen,

I shall do all that in me lies to discourage the Woollen Manufacture in Ireland, and to encourage the Linen Manufacture there; and to promote the Trade of England.

Accommodation of the House at Impeachment.

Sir Rowland Gwyn, according to Order, reported the free Conference with the Lords, the 21st of June last, relating to the Impeachments of John Goudet, and others, as followeth; viz.

That the Members of this House, who were commanded to manage the free Conference with the Lords, on Tuesday the 21st of June last, did meet their Lordships in the Painted Chamber:

And the Conference was begun by the Managers of this House: Who did acquaint the Lords, That the Commons had desired this free Conference, in order to maintain a good Correspondence with their Lordships; and could not doubt the Sincerity of their Lordships Intentions towards that End:

That the Good and Welfare of this Kingdom, in great measure, depend upon it; and that it is as much their Lordships Interest, as the Commons, to continue it: And therefore, the Commons might reasonably hope, That their Lordships would wave all such Resolutions as might occasion, or tend to, any Difference between the Two Houses:

That the Matter now in Question does arise from a Message, sent by the Commons, to their Lordships, on the 6th of this Instant, desiring that a convenient Place might be appointed for the Managers of the Impeachments against John Goudet, and others, as is usual; and their Lordships Answers thereunto:

That the having such a Conveniency appointed, is absolutely necessary for the Commons; whereby, they may be the better enabled to make good their Charge against them:

That the Persons impeached are Eight in Number; and the Commons have many Witnesses, Books, and Papers, to produce, to make good their Charge; which probably may continue the Tryals for some Days:

That all Tryals are in open Court; and that it will be impossible for the Commons to be desended from the Crowd; or to produce their Evidence, and make use of it in such Manner, and Method, as would be necessary; or bear the Fatigue of the Tryals; if they had not convenient Accommodation provided for them:

That the Commons are a Part of the Legislature; and, if they must be set upon a Level with the meanest of the People, it would be a Diminution to their Lordships Honour, who are another Part of it, to treat them with Disrespect:

That the Legislature consists of Three Parts, King, Lords, and Commons; and they are mutually concerned to support each other's Honour and Dignity; and whatever Slight, or Disrespect, is shewed to any one of them, ought to be resented by the other Two:

That all Courts of Justice do provide convenient Accommodation for the Prosecutors, in all Tryals whatsoever; and the Lords, in the Tryal of the Lord Mohun, did appoint a convenient Place for the King's Counsel: Wherefore, the Commons cannot believe, That their Lordships will have more Regard to particular Gentlemen of the Long Robe, than a Committee of the House of Commons:

That the Commons ought, of Right, to have a convenient Place appointed for their Managers, in all Tryals upon Impeachments; and such Provision was made for them, in the Tryals of the Earl of Strafford, and Lord Viscount Stafford:

That the Lords did propose to the Commons, That a convenient Place for their Managers should be provided, in the House where their Lordships now sit, upon the Tryal of the Earl of Strafford.

That the Distinction made by their Lordships, at the last Conference, between Tryals for Treason, and Tryals for Misdemeanors, cannot avail in the present Case; for that the Nature of the Crime can only relate to the Punishment due for the same; and does not alter, or change, the Nature of the Court:

Accommodation of the House at Impeachments.

That the House of Lords are, to all Intents, the same Court in Westminster-hall, as in any other Room, or Place; and have the same jurisdiction; the Room where the Lords now sit is not essentially necessary to the Constitution; the Lords were a Court before that Room was built; and the same Deference is paid to the House of Lords in one Place, as another; and, if there be Reason for a Conveniency in one Place, the same Reason holds for another: The Commons have shewed Precedents; and though the Precedents do not fully come up to the Point in Question, yet they are Precedents for any thing within the same Reason:

That the Commons may, of Right, appear at Tryals upon Impeachments, as a House, or by a Committee of the whole House, as they think fit; and that, in regard this is a Matter of great Consequence to the Trade of this Kingdom, they do intend to appear by a Committee of the whole House, upon this Tryal:

That the Message of the Commons, desiring a convenient Place might be appointed for the Managers, as usual, doth imply, That such Conveniency hath been often provided, as appears by the Precedents quoted; though, perhaps, not always: And therefore, the Commons conceive, That the Precedent of the Lord Mordaunt, upon the Journals, is not sufficient to bar them of that Conveniency:

That all Tryals for Misdemeanors have not been at the Bar of the House of Lords:

That the Charge, and the Substance of the Evidence, against Sir Giles Mompesson, and the other Persons concerned with him, was delivered, by the Commons, at a Conference; and the Lords appointed Committees, to examine the Witnesses, to make good that Charge; the Examinations were reported to the House, and Copies sent to the Parties accused; and upon their giving in their Answers, the Lords proceeded to Judgment; without any Tryal at the Bar:

That the like was done in the Cases of the Earl of Middlesex, who was Lord Treasurer of England; and the Lord Viscount St. Albans, who was Lord Chancellor:

That if Misdemeanors can be tried, only at the Bar of the House where their Lordships now sit, and that House should happen to be burnt, or the Parliament should be summoned to meet at any other Place; then, no Person could be tried, upon any Impeachment, for Misdemeanor:

That 'tis not proper for the Commons to appoint the Place where the Tryal should be; but, where-ever it is appointed, they judge it reasonable and fitting, that those Members of the House of Commons, who have the Management of that Tryal, and act not for their private Profit, but the Publick Good, should have better Accommodation than those that appear for their Fees:

That the Matter of Proof, in Case of Misdemeanor, may be as long as in the Case of Treason; and the Reasons for Conveniency and Accommodation for the Managers are as strong in the one Case as the other:

That the Methods of Justice are not Things of Ceremony, but Things of Right; or they are not at all to be insisted upon:

That the Commons are not in their own Power, as Counsel at the Bar, having a greater Trust upon them; and, there being Eight Persons to be tried, it may be impossible for the Strength of Nature to endure it, without an Accommodation suitable to the Occasion:

That the Commons do not think it will be any Diminution to the Jurisdiction of the House of Lords, to appoint a convenient Place for the Commons to manage their Evidence: The higher the Court is, there is more Reason that Tryals, in that Court, should be managed with the greatest Decency, and least Disturbance:

That if there be no Precedent, that this Conveniency was ever asked, there can be none, that it ever was denied: It is a Circumstance of Action, to be regulated by the Variety of Accidents; and it is time enough for the Commons to ask a Remedy for an Inconvenience, as soon as they either apprehend or feel it:

That, for these Reasons, the Commons do insist upon their having a convenient Place appointed for the Managers of the Impeachments against John Goudet, and others; whereby, they may be the better enabled to make good their Charge against them.

The Managers for the Lords, who spoke at this Conference, were, the Earls of Rochester and Peterborough, and the Lord Godolphin: And the Substance of what was said by the Managers of the Lords, was;

That the Lords meet the Commons with as great a Desire of maintaining a good Correspondence between both Houses, as the Commons can have; and that they hope the Commons will not doubt of their Sincerity:

That the Commons cannot think, That the denying them a convenient Accommodation looks like a Disrespect; because they are defended from it by the Constitution; and by their Persons, as well as their Characters:

That the Point in Question is grounded upon the First Message; which was, to desire a convenient Place for the Managers, as was usual: and the Commons have insisted a great deal more upon the Reasonableness of the Thing, and the Conveniency of it, than its being usual; and if a Message had been sent, in the Terms that the Commons seem to argue upon, possibly there would not have been that Difference of Opinion, as hitherto:

That the Crimes the Commons have accused the Persons of cannot be more odious to the Commons than they are to the Lords; and the Lords are as ready to judge upon them, as the Commons are to prosecute:

That if there happens to be any Difference, or Impediment, it will arise from the Commons desiring something that is not usual, and insisting upon it as usual; and the Hindrance of this Prosecution will lie at their Doors that insist upon a Thing as usual, when 'tis not proved to be so:

That this Thing has not been usual, in the Manner the Commons have asked it, does appear, by the several Precedents in the Cases of the Attorney-General, who was impeached by the Commons in the Year 1641; Bynion, and Gourney Lord Mayor of London, who were impeached in 1642; and Archbishop Laud, impeached in 1643:

That there is no Mention in the Lords Journals, of any such Message sent, nor of any Provision made for the Commons, upon these Tryals:

That several Lords and Commons do well remember, That divers Members of the House of Commons came to the Bar of the Lords House, to manage the Evidence against the Lord Viscount Mordaunt, who was impeached in the Year 1666; and that no such Message was sent, nor any Provision made for them:

That if any such Message had been sent by the Commons, upon these Impeachments, or Provision made for them, it were almost impossible but it would have been entered in the Lords Journals:

That the Lords own, That the Crime being Misdemeanor, or Treason, does not alter the Case; the Crime rather concerns the Person that is accused, than the Presecutors, or Judges:

That the Message sent by the Commons, in the Earl of Strafford's Case, was to desire their Lordships would take care to find a Conveniency for both Houses; which does seem to imply, That the Commons did, from the Beginning, think, that the Tryal would be in some other Place than the House of Lords;

That the Lords do not find, by their Precedents, that it has been usual: If it had been asked as a Conveniency, at first; possibly, it might have been otherwise than it is; and the Commons, intending to come as a Committee of the whole House, may alter the Case:

That the Reasonableness of what is desired by the Commons was never considered by the Lords; for they were bound up to consider nothing but what was usual:

That Matters of Form are essential to Government; and 'tis of Consequence to be in the Right:

That all the Reason for Forms is Custom; and the Law of Forms is Practice; and Reason is quite out of Doors: Some particular Customs may not be grounded upon Reason, and no good Account can be given of them; and yet, many Nations are zealous for them; and Englishmen are as zealous as any others, to pursue their old Forms and Methods:

That when the Commons appoint a Committee, to manage in the Case of Misdemeanor, there is but a small Number; which does not require the Room that is necessary for a Committee of the whole House; but, in Matters of Treason, every Man is willing to hear, and the whole House of Commons ought to hear, that they may the better know how to give their Votes: So, there is a manifest Distinction between the whole House, and a Committee, however considerable; the whole House is more so than any Part; and those that are sent must be inferior to the whole Body that sends them:

That the Words "as usual" being in the Commons Message, the Lords could look upon nothing but what was usual, though never so just and reasonable in itself; and the Commons have not proved it usual, by Precedents exactly squaring to this Case: The Precedents produced by the Lords shew, That nothing of this kind was ever done in like Cases:

That if the Commons Message had been grounded upon the Conveniency and Reason of the Thing, the Lords would have been compliant:

That the Tryal of the Lord Mordaunt, in 1666, proceeded so far, as to decide this Point in Question:

That if the Commons come, in a Committee of the whole House, there may be a Door for an Accommodation; which comes up to the Precedent of the Earl of Strafford: For there ought to be another fort of Accommodation provided, when the whole House comes, than for a Committee to manage the Evidence:

That, supposing the Commons had reason on their Side, this is a mixed Case; and nothing ought to be imputed to the House of Lords: That they endeavour to put it upon this Foot, that the House may have Reason and Custom to proceed on, by taking Notice of what was said by the Commons, That they intend to come in a Committee of the whole House:

That though the Lords should allow the Reason of the Thing, yet reason is proper to be urged, only to prove a Thing reasonable: But when, from Reason, you would urge it as a Precedent, which you do not prove, but by Reason; you may prove it a reasonable Thing, but you cannot prove it a precedented Thing.

The Managers for the Commons, by way of Reply, said:

That if the Commons were allowed, of Right, to have a Conveniency provided for them in the Cases of the Earl of Strafford, and Viscount Stafford, at their Trials in Westminster-hall;—though their Lordships call it Westminster-hall, yet the Commons call it the House of Lords; and their Lordships can call it otherwise; for their Lordships must act as such, or they cannot pass Judgment;—the House does not constitute the Lords, but the Lords the House:—So that, it having been allowed in those Cases, the Commons think they may demand it as usual:

That, if no Precedent could be produced, it is so reasonable, and necessary, that their Lordships cannot, in Justice, deny the Commons having such a Conveniency: That Necessity makes Precedents; and that in this Case, there are not only Precedents, but Necessity too:

That the word "usual" ought to be understood as it is in all Cases, where a Prosecutor is accommodated with such Conveniencies as may enable him to carry on the Prosecution with Essect:

That the Precedents mentioned by their Lordships do not make for them; because the Journals are silent as to what Provision was made for the Commons, in those Cases:

Accommodation for the House at Impeachments.

That if no particular Provision was made for the Commons in the Case of the Lord Mordaunt; yet, if that Case had been attended with such Circumstances as would have made that Tryal to have been as difficult to be carried on as this present Prosecution, it is not to be doubted, but their Lordships would have made some Provision for it:

That the Commons speak very feelingly; for they are incommoded to that degree, in Half an Hour's time, at this Conference, that it is a very sensible Argument of the Necessity, that some Conveniency should be provided for them at the Tryals:

That the Commons have tried other Methods, without Success; and, if this Prosecution drops, it is to be feared, there will be a total Failure of Justice in Parliament:

That if the Commons have departed from their First Message, by insisting upon the Reasonableness of having such a Conveniency provided for them, their Lordships seem to allow the Reasons to be good, by not giving any Answer to them:

And, if the Commons have gone upon that Point, instead of the Usage, it may give another Understanding of the Matter: for, if Reason be on the Commons Side, it is not to be questioned, but it will have a good Effect with the Lords:

That it would be a Lessening to the Lords, to suppose them greater in one Place than another; they have the same Honour where-ever they are; and the Commons will pay all the Respect that hath been paid to the Lords; and hope the Lords will afford the same Conveniency to the Commons that hath been heretofore provided upon Impeachments:

That if the Commons should allow, That they have not the same Right to a Conveniency in the House of Lords, which they claim in Westminster-hall, and a like Dispute should happen upon an Impeachment to be tried in Westminster-hall, the Commons apprehend, that their Lordships might deny them such Conveniency, by affirming, That they are the same Lords in Westminster-hall, as in the House wherein they now sit; and therefore ought not to be allowed any other Conveniency in Westminster-hall, than in the House of Lords:

That all Courts provide convenient Accommodations for the Prisoner and Prosecutor: It is a Part of universal Justice: And therefore it is to be presumed, that the Lords, who are so High and Honourable a Court, will not deny it:

That the Lords and Commons sat together in the Court of Requests, then called Camera Alba, in the Case of Gomenes and Weston.

Duties on Low Wines.

Mr. Norris, according to Order, reported from the Committee of the whole House, to whom the Bill to prevent the Frauds and Abuses of Distillers, and others chargeable with the Duties upon low Wines, and Spirits, was committed, the Amendments, made by the Committee, to the said Bill; which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

A Clause was offered, to be added to the Bill, That * * * *

And the same was twice read, with Blanks; and the Blanks were filled up; and the Clause, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed to be made Part of the Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill, with the Amendments, be ingrossed.

Impeachment of Longueville.

Ordered, That the Officers and Door-keepers of this House do attend in Westminster-hall upon Monday Morning next, at the Place appointed for the Committee of this House, to be present at the Tryal of Peter Longueville, upon the Impeachment against him; and do take care, that none but Members be admitted into that Place.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Miles Cook and Mr. Meredith:

Mr. Speaker,

Trafford's Estate.

The Lords have agreed to the Bill, intituled, An Act for enabling Humphrey Trafford Esquire to raise Four thousand Pounds upon his Estate, for Payment of his Debts, without any Amendment: Also,

Ships Ruby, &c.

The Lords have agreed to the Bill, intituled, An Act, That the Ships called the Ruby-Prize, and Plimouth, may have Freedom of trading as English built Ships, without any Amendment: Also,

Lords desire the House to continue sitting.

The Lords desire, That this House will continue sitting for some time longer.

And then the Messengers withdrew.

Resolved, That this House will continue sitting for some time, as the Lords do desire.

And the Messengers were called in again; and Mr. Speaker acquainted them therewith.

Conference with Lords.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Miles Cook and Mr. Meredeth:

Mr. Speaker,

The Lords do desire a present Conference with this House, in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject-matter of the Impeachment now depending.

And then the Messengers withdrew.

Resolved, That this House doth agree to a present Conference, as the Lords do desire.

And the Messengers were called in again; and Mr. Speaker acquainted them therewith.

Ordered, That the former Managers of the former Conference do manage the said Conference.

And they went to the Conference.

And, being returned;

Trial of Longueville postponed.

Sir Rowland Gwyn reported the Conference: That it was managed by the Lord Godolphin: Who said, That the Lords did desire to do all Things necessary to continue a good Correspondence; and acquainted them, That the Lords having sent a Message to the House of Commons, on the 28th of June, to acquaint them that their Lordships would proceed to the Tryal of the Persons impeached upon Monday next; and having afterwards acquainted them, that Eight of the said Persons had pleaded guilty; the Lords desired the said Conference, to let them know, That so much of their Lordships Time has been necessarily taken up in informing themselves of the Substance of the Persons who have pleaded guilty, in order to their giving Judgment upon their Crimes; that it will not be possible for the Lords to be ready for the Tryal of Peter Longueville upon Monday next.

And then the House adjourned till Monday Morning, Ten a Clock.