House of Lords Journal Volume 14: 4 February 1689

DIE Lunæ, 4 die Februarii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

The Marquis of Halyfax appointed Speaker pro Tempore.

Message from H. C. for a Conference about the Vote concerning King King James's abdicating.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by the Lord of Wiltshire and others:

To acquaint their Lordships, that the Commons desire a Conference, upon the Subject-matter of Amendments made by their Lordships, to the Vote sent up by them to their Lordships the 28th Day of January last.

The Answer returned to this Message was;

Answer.

That the Lords will give a Conference, as is desired, and appoints the same to be presently, in the Painted Chamber.

Then these Lords were appointed to manage and report the Conference:

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference.

Then the Earl of Clarendon reported the Effect of the Conference; videlicet,

"That this Conference was managed by Mr. Hampden; who said, That to the First Amendment proposed by their Lordships to be made to the Vote of the Commons of the 28th of January, instead of the Word ["abdicated"], to insert the Word ["deserted"], the Commons do not agree.

"Because the Word ["deserted"] does not fully express the Conclusion necessarily inferred from the Premises which your Lordships have agreed; for your Lordships have agreed that King James the Second has endeavoured to subvert the Constitution of the Kingdom, by breaking the original Contract between King and People, and has violated the fundamental Laws, and withdrawn Himself out of the Kingdom: Now the Word ["deserted"] respects only the Withdrawing; but the Word ["abdicated"] respects the Whole, for which Purpose the Commons made Choice of it.

"The Commons do not agree to the Second Amendment, to leave out these Words ["and that the Throne is thereby vacant."]

"1. Because they conceive, that as they may well infer from so much of their own Vote as your Lordships have agreed, that King James the Second has abdicated the Government, and that the Throne is thereby vacant; so that, if they should admit your Lordships Amendment, that He has only ["deserted"] the Government, yet even thence it would follow that the Throne is vacant, as to King James the Second deserting the Government, being in true Construction deserting the Throne.

"2. The Commons conceive, they need not prove to your Lordships, that as to any other Person, the Throne is also vacant : Your Lordships, as they conceive, have already admitted it, by your addressing to the Prince of Orange, the 25th of December last, to take upon him the Administration of Public Affairs both Civil and Military; and to take into his Care the Kingdom of Ireland, till the Meeting of the Convention; and to write his Letters for this Meeting, and for directing the Choice of Commoners thereto; as by your Lordships Meeting in this Convention in Pursuance of such Letters, by your renewing the same Address to him (as to the Public Affairs and the Kingdom of Ireland) since you met; and by appointing Days of a public Thanksgiving to be observed throughout the whole Kingdom: All which Acts the Commons conceive to imply, that it was your Lordships Opinion that the Throne was vacant, and to signify as much to the People of this Kingdom.

"3. It is from those who are upon the Throne of England, when there are any such, from whom the People of England ought to receive Protection, and to whom (for that Cause) they owe Allegiance; but there being none now from whom they can expect Regal Protection, and to whom (therefore) they owe the Allegiance of Subjects, the Commons conceive the Throne is vacant."

And, after Debate, came to this Question:

Lords insist on the Word "deserted" instead of "abdicated";

"Whether to agree with the House of Commons in the Word ["abdicated"], instead of the Word ["deserted"]?"

Resolved in the Negative.

Then, upon Debate, this Question was put,

and refuse to agree to the Words "that the Throne is vacant."

"Whether to agree with the House of Commons in these Words ["and that the Throne is thereby vacant"]?

Resolved in the Negative.

Protest against it.

Leave was given to any Lords to enter their Dissents; and accordingly these Lords following do enter their Dissents, by subscribing their Names:

"Kingston.
Halifax.
G. Suffolke.
Shrewsbury.
Mulgrave.
Derby.
Manchester.
J. Bridgewater.
Vaughan.
Grey of Ruthin.
Lumley.
Winchester.
Devonshire.
Stamford.
Herbert.
North & Grey.
Radnor.
Delamer.
Winchilsea.
Pagett.
Bedford.
R. Montagu.
Mordaunt.
Bristol.
J. Lovelace.
Dorsett.
Berkeley.
C. Cornwallis.
Bolingbrooke.
Culpeper.
Rivers.
Grey.
Sussex.
R. Eure.
Lucas.
Carteret.
Biron.
Ward.
Clare."
Then,

Committee to prepare Heads for a Conference.

The House appointed these Lords following, to draw up Reasons, to be offered to the House of Commons at a Conference, why this House doth not agree with them upon the Matter of the last Conference; and to report the same to the House:

Their Lordships, or any Five of them; to meet at Four of the Clock this Afternoon, in the Prince's Lodgings, near the House of Peers.

Hayes examined, about the Letter from the King.

Next, Mr. Hayes was called in; and asked, "If that was the Letter he brought to my Lord Preston?" He answered, "That this was my Lord Preston's Writing; and that Letter he brought was directed to the Lord Preston."

Being asked, "How he came by that Letter?" He said, "The King bid him go to the Lord Melfort for it; and he gave it him."

Then, he being asked, "Where he gave it him?" He said, "At St. Germans in France;" and withdrew.

Wallop to be an Assistant.

ORDERED, That Richard Wallop Esquire do attend this House, as an Assistant.

Adjourn.

Marquis de Halyfax, Orator Procerum pro Tempore, declaravit præsen. Convent. continuandum esse usque in diem Martis, videlicet, 5^um diem Februarii, 1688/9, hora decima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.