House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 17 March 1645

Pages 276-277

Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 7, 1644. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.

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Page 276
Page 277

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DIE Lunæ, 17 die Martii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Delmy.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

L. General.
Comes Northumb.
Comes Kent.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Sarum.
L. Admiral.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Manchester.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Comes Denbigh.
Ds. North.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Bruce.
Ds. Dacres.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Maynard.

Serj. Finch, Leave to be absent.

Ordered, That Mr. Serjeant Fynch hath Leave to go into Kent, for Ten Days from his going.

The Lord Admiral reported a Paper from the Committee of both Kingdoms; which was read; videlicet,

Paper concerning the French Minister's Desire of transporting Powder from Holland, for the Service of France.

"That the Paper of Monsieur Sabran, of the First of March, 1644, concerning the transporting of Three Hundred Thousand Pounds of Powder, by Julian Lawson, Merchant, of Amsterdam, from divers Places, and in divers Vessels, for the Service of the King of France, be reported to both Houses."

Ordered, To communicate this Paper of Monsieur Sabran to the House of Commons; and desire their Concurrence, that it may be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms, to deliver their Opinions to both Houses what is fit to be done thereupon.

The Speaker acquainted the House with a Paper delivered to him from the Spanish Ambassador, to present the same to this House.

Paper from the Spanish Ambassador, for Leave to transport some Irish into Spain.

The Paper was read; "That he might have Liberty to transport Irish out of Ireland, for the Service of the King of Spayne, he having agreed with divers Commanders about their raising and transporting; having Licence from the King to that Purpose."

Ordered, To communicate this Paper to the House of Commons; and desire it may be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms, to report their Opinions to both Houses, what is fit to be done thereupon.

Committee for Leicestershire.

Ordered, That this House concurs with the House of Commons to the Ordinance for the settling of the Committee of Leycestershire, and desire the Addition of these Persons following to that Committee:

(Here enter the Names.)

Sir Edward Hartop Knight.
Mr. Tho. Beaumount.
Mr. Wm. Quarles.
Mr. Tho. Goddard.
Mr. Tho. Cotton.
Mr. Wm. Sherman.
Mr. Wm. Danvers.

It was moved, "Whether the Commissioners of the Great Seal may send a Letter to the Lord Rich, to answer a Suit in the Chancery commenced against him?"

Lord Rich, Privilege.

And it is Ordered, That he shall enjoy the Privilege of a Peer; but, if his Lordship sueth any, then the Commissioners shall acquaint this House therewith.

E. of Carlisle, Privilege.

Upon reading the Petition of the Earl of Carlile; setting forth, "That, by virtue of a Decree in Chancery against him, by the Creditors of his Father, he is threatened to have his Person and Goods attached, he being a Peer of this Realm."

(Here enter the Petition at large.)

It is Ordered, That his Person shall be freed from all Arrests; and as concerning his Goods, it is referred to the Consideration of the Committee of Privileges, who are to report their Opinions to this (fn. 1) House concerning the same; and all Proceedings thereupon to be stayed, until further Directions of this House.

Message from the H. C. for a Conference, about the new Model of the Army.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight:

To desire a Free Conference, concerning the late Conference, touching the List of the new Model of the Army which is to be commanded by Sir Tho. Fairefaxe.

The Answer returned was:


That this House will give a present Free Conference, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

Message to the H. C. with the French and Spanish Ambassadors Papers;

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath:

1. To communicate the Paper of Monsieur Sabran, and desire their Concurrence, that it be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms, to report to both Houses what (fn. 2) they conceive fit to be done thereupon.

2. To deliver the Paper of the Spanish (fn. 3) Ambassador's to them; and to desire Concurrence, that it may be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms, to report to both Houses what is fit to be done thereupon.

and about the Leicestershire Committee.

3. To let them know, that this House approves of the Names to be added to the Committee for Leycestershire; and desire Concurrence, in adding the Names of the Persons this Day agreed upon by this House.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being done, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference, concerning the List for the new Model of the Army.

The Speaker reported the Effect of the last Conference: "That the List of Officers nominated by Sir Tho. Fairefaxe, and approved by the House of Commons, being sent up to their Lordships, their Lordships were pleased to disapprove of many of them; whereupon, at another Conference, the House of Commons gave their Lordships Reasons why they adhered to their Approbation; but no Answer is given to those Reasons, nor Notice taken of them. This must make the Difference endless, and the Ordinance ineffectual, which is acknowledged to be the chief visible Strength upon which we are to rely for the Safety of the Parliament and Kingdom. That Delay giveth Time to the King to recruit, and Opportunity to break into the associated Counties; and these Officers which are mentioned in the List have Commissions, which they received from the Lord General, the Earl of Manchester, and Sir Wm. Waller, and have been employed under them, of whom there was never yet heard any Exception against any One of them. The House of Commons agrees to their Lordships Second Reason; and from thence press, that, unless so great Reasons were to be urged against any of them as might endanger the whole Business, they conceive it requisite to concur with them, they having been hitherto employed without an Exception, and having (fn. 1) been nominated by Sir Thomas Fairefaxe; and, upon those Reasons approved by them, they must not recede from their Approbation without any Reasons at all. Therefore the House of Commons again (fn. 4) desire this Conference, to satisfy their Lordships, and all the World, that they are very desirous to use all Ways and Means to induce their Lordships to concur with the Commons of England, for the saving the Kingdom."

After a serious Debate of this Report, this Question was put;

House divides equally upon the Report.

"Whether this House shall pass this List as it was presented by Sir Thomas Fairefaix to the House of Commons, and brought up by the House of Commons to this House."

And the Contents and Not Contents being even, the Lord Viscount Say & Seale tendered the Proxy of the Earl of Mulgrave; but it was alledged, that there was a General Order, "That no Proxy should be made Use of;" of which Question was made.


It was the Resolution of the House, That Search should be made against To-morrow Morning, whether there be any such Order upon Record; and, in case there be not, then the Earl of Mulgrave's Proxy to stand good; and the Question is to be carried in the Affirmative.

Message to the H. C. for a further Conference about this Business.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Baron Trevor and Dr. Aylett:

To desire them to give a Free Conference, in the Painted Chamber, To-morrow Morning, at Eleven of the Clock, touching the Matter of the late Conference.

It was Resolved, That the Answer to be returned to the Members of the House of Commons, that stayed in the Painted Chamber for an Answer to this Free Conference, should be, "To acquaint (fn. 4) them, that their Lordships have considered of the Matter of this last Conference, but cannot give them a Resolution at this Time."


House adjourned till 9a cras.


  • 1. Deest in Originali.
  • 2. Origin. the.
  • 3. Origin. Ambassador's Paper.
  • 4. Deest in Originali.